Pink Floyd/The Division Bell - Ask Andy Jackson about the Mastering and the Mix

[Andy Jackson]

Interesting Clint, can you say why??

In terms of mixing, both the centre & sub seem a/ irrelevant & b/ a minefield to use.

Centre: unless you use it fully discrete, you are into the vagueries of electrical versus acoustical summing (which is totally room dependent) & the fact that often centre speakers don't match L&R. Using it discrete it will a/ have the possibility that it'll be missing on some systems & b/ sound totally different from the virtual centre of L&R, which, assuming there is a stereo mix as well (always is) means the (for example) vocal will sound very different, in an unpredictable way, to the stereo.

Sub: You really can't reliably put the same signal in L/R (or LCR) and the sub, the electrical/ acoustical summing differences are a complete nightmare if anyone is using bass management, so you're left with putting different stuff in the sub from the mains. Not going to risk bass guitar or kick drum, so there's nothing much left, unless you've got 'low frequency effects', which is what is meant for (in cinema). Music mostly doesn't have 'low frequency effects' as it is generally devoid of spaceships, dinosaurs or explosions (apart from "On the run)

 

[Andy Jackson]

rtbluray

Yes, the thing of 'holding the centre' is the one good thing, and of course why it exists in cinema. Is it really relevant in music, are you guys doing 'group playbacks'??

Circular vibes

I'd have to mix it twice I think, unless the centre & sub were cursory (summing issues again), and if they are cursory (as I did on Div Bell) then sod 'em (as we say in the trade)

 

[Circular Vibes]

Thank you for your reply, Andy. I think both answers have good points.

 

[rtbluray]

rtbluray

Yes, the thing of 'holding the centre' is the one good thing, and of course why it exists in cinema. Is it really relevant in music, are you guys doing 'group playbacks'??

Occasionally I do have a few friends and family stop by my apt that now show some interest in surround so when I play some mixes for them, sometimes they are seated in or close to the center and sometimes they are not.

The one other place where I have found use of the center channel to be extremely effective for music is for surround systems in the car. I love especially hearing a vocal in the center channel as the speaker is located in the front center, whereas it will be on the side door speaker closest to you if phantom center is used.

You are absolutely right though in that center channel content will sound different compared to the phantom center in Front L/R.

 

[peterzach]

Andy, have you listened to any of the amazing releases put out in 5.1, using the center channel?
I love the way Steven Wilson uses the center channel for primary vocals as well as some other choices. Elliot Scheiner also uses the center channel.
I enjoy quad and think it has its place but to me not to use the center is to lose some of the sound field potential.
I would definitely choose a 5.1 treatment of any album versus a quad.
Having said that James Guthrie's 5.1 of DSOTM and WYWH are not some of the best examples of 5.1.
I would choose any of Elliot Scheiner's,Steven Wilson,Rob Reed as my favorite 5.1 mixers.

peter

 

[Andy Jackson]

rtbluray

cars is an interesting point, never been in a surround car, but certainly am familiar with the problem that one inherently sits on one side or the other & therefore has an off centre centre

 

[Andy Jackson]

Interesting that all the debate has been about the centre channel, and some very good points made. No one has mentioned the sub (should really call it LFE, sub is what you have with bass management)

Maybe 5.0 is the way to go.

The reality is that you guys almost certainly listen to a lot more surround than I do. It's why I value your opinion (which I may well then ignore of course)

 

[rtbluray]

Interesting that all the debate has been about the centre channel, and some very good points made. No one has mentioned the sub (should really call it LFE, sub is what you have with bass management)

Maybe 5.0 is the way to go.

The reality is that you guys almost certainly listen to a lot more surround than I do. It's why I value your opinion (which I may well then ignore of course)

Bass management is the reason why I do not think that having mix content in the LFE channel is necessary for music.
Plus as you know it's always better to not have any LFE content than to have too much which might result in bass overload on bass managed systems.

 

[LizardKing]

I can live without a LFE channel...some of my favourite mixes are 5.0.

But if its used properly like on The Division Bell, then it can add a bit of a "kick" to a mix..

 

[César]

I still think it's more an artistic decision than anything based on pure technical arguments. I reckon that using the center channel in the car or when listening out of the sweet spot maybe the right way to go but, how many cars have a surround system? Perhaps some Mercedes in Europe, some Acura in the US... But honestly I think they represent a minority among all the surround listening environments. Same about the group listenings, how many times have you had people coming home to listen 5.1 music with you? I'd love to have more of these gatherings but usually it's something I do on my own or lately with my 3 years old son sitting on my knees. Regarding the subwoofer, it can be avoided with a good pair of fronts. And for those living in flats, our neighbours appreciate a moderate use of it!

In any case, choosing the right thing for the majority of the people can be complicated and, had I to pick up one, I'd take whatever it's more universal. Nicely done, a 5.0 or 5.1 mix can fulfill everybody's requirements, which a quad might not. On the other hand, if the artist does not feel comfortable with the 5.1, the mix can be disappointing for everyone.
Ideally, I'd like to be able to listen to both mixes and choose, but this might not economically viable. And in the few occasions I'd been able to compare (Dark Side, WYWH, Give me strength boxet), I prefer the quad (well Aqualung might be the exception). And well, as these mixes were done by different people, my argument is not completely valid.

I'd be really interesting to add to the discussion Steven Wilson, as he sometimes answers our questions in the forum too. Steven, hope you read it and feel like contacting Andy

 

[strat54]

peter,

I feel the opposite, I am not fond of the center channel on SW mixes of EL&P, Tarkus, Close to the Edge and The Yes Album, the cumulative vocals in the L+R and the center are so loud it takes all the balls out of the music. I listen to them with the center turned down 6dB. I would rather listen to the Offord mixes in pseudo-surround.
However the King Crimson stuff doesn't bother me and Discipline is my favorite of the SW mixes. So there it is.
I think Andy has it just right. Carry on.

 

[himey]

If it ain't broke...My advice would be go back to the way you did Division Bell. You can never please everyone but you came very close with DB so doing something different seems risky. Having 2 choices would be great if you have the time and if you feel like creating another completely different sound field. Two different mixes that are only slightly different seems like a waste of time. However, if after you finish the first mix with your "Division Bell blueprint" and you are still refreshed and feeling creative, try something different as an added bonus in an attempt at a different experience for the listener.

For me, the sub is not critical for multichannel music. There are moments when an extra channel for super low frequencies could come in handy, but depending on the type of music, it's rare. An effect channel or a climax enhancement could warrant the need for .1 implementation.

The center, for me, is more of the wild card. I have heard many mixes (like your Division Bell and 70's quad) that don't use it, yet the mix is very successful. Then there's Steven Wilson where in the majority of the songs, the center channel and vocals are a primary focus to the overall presentation. You also have Les Claypool and the Sailing On a Sea of Cheese mix where the center (after the first 30 seconds of the album) becomes an effects only channel and is sparingly used, like quad with bonus effects up front. All three work for me yet use the center in a completely different manor. Good luck! Looking forward to hearing your stuff and how you decide to present it in surround form.

 

[Andy Jackson]

Thanks everyone for your input.

In a very positive way I think I'm none the wiser ;-)

Seriously, it does seem that there is no particular consensus, so I'll just go with what I fancy.

I've had the same question running on another (closed) forum of audio engineers, and am none the wiser from that either. Main thing that came up there was that most of them thought that a lot of surround stuff out there was not very well done.

aj

 

[himey]

Thanks everyone for your input.

In a very positive way I think I'm none the wiser ;-)

Seriously, it does seem that there is no particular consensus, so I'll just go with what I fancy.

I've had the same question running on another (closed) forum of audio engineers, and am none the wiser from that either. Main thing that came up there was that most of them thought that a lot of surround stuff out there was not very well done.

aj

So true. That is why the people around here get excited when it is done effectively.

 

[rtbluray]

Main thing that came up there was that most of them thought that a lot of surround stuff out there was not very well done.

aj

I think there's two reasons for that. One could be that the person doing a certain surround mix was not very faithful to the original stereo mix in terms of levels, processing, panning, etc
The other reason being that some mixes are overly cautious when it comes to center and surround channel use and don't treat them as equals to the front L/R pair. (The opposite obviously being too much use of these other channels)

 

[kap'n krunch]

Hi Andy, thanks for sticking around.

I have discovered TDB because I didn't even bother with it when it came out since I was quite disappointed with AMLOR.

FANTASTIC JOB on the Surround mix, Mr. Guthrie should be taking classes from you after the dismal DSOTM and WYWH remixes...

Anyway, couple of questions;
When you did the MCH mix, what speakers were you monitoring from and what was their position?

(I always ask this next one) Did you use any compression at all in the mix bus(at least a little tiny bit)? Any EQ?

I love the dbx subharmonic enhancer, its effect is not overblown and it gives the mix a really nice full/round sound....

Cheers!

 

[Andy Jackson]

Anyway, couple of questions;
When you did the MCH mix, what speakers were you monitoring from and what was their position?

(I always ask this next one) Did you use any compression at all in the mix bus(at least a little tiny bit)? Any EQ?

Speakers are ATCs. L&R are modified scm150 pro, centre is a stock scm150 pro, sub is their big one but in a different cabinet (to fit), rears are scm50 pro

Because of the space in the studio, the rears are further back than spec, although still in the circle

We also have a low grade system using some cheap Kefs, can't remember what they are.

No compression on the mix bus. I did a mastering pass (recently, rather than at the time) & did a bit of tweaky EQ, nothing huge.

 

[JonUrban]

Andy,

I see nothing wrong with 4.0, but it really comes down to the mix. A good 4.0 mix stomps all over a bad 5.1 mix.

I appreciate the center channel more in the car, as it's up high and comes from the center of the dashboard which really makes a vocal stand out with the remaining channels sent to the sides and back of the listening area. However, at home, it's not that pronounced. It's a bit more apt to be drowned out by the front speakers or absorbed by the room itself.

As for the LFE, eh. I'm no fan of the LFE. Since my surround system(s) are tailored for music and not "just movies", they are all full range and can handle the bass where you put it and where you want it to sound from. If you want the bass guitar in the back, why shouldn't you put it there. LFE sometimes turns out to be just an excuse to use the sub woofer.

 

[John Svensson]

In a very positive way I think I'm none the wiser ;-) Seriously, it does seem that there is no particular consensus,.....

I'll throw in my vote for the quad like mix as you did on TDB, but I think you've nailed it above, If it was all down to a proven formula it would become boring and lose all the "art".
The quad era was full of quirky mixes and experimentation. Surprise us! John

 

[Philip Spinner]

I can make either work so I don't really care. What ever sounds best to you is the most important thing. As far as audio engineers not liking many of the surround sound mixes they have heard, well that is the problem. They should grab the bull by the horns and try it themselves like you are doing. Also thanks for visiting QQ.
Phil