Playback DSD (natively) with a PC

[coolerking101]

I spent quite a bit of time figuring out how to rip my SACD collection and then ultimately did so for use on my PC (that sends audio via HDMI using JRiver to my Denon 3600 receiver). It was only after I did this, and went down the rabbit hole trying to figure out why JRiver kept converting to PCM, that I learned that DSD cannot be sent over HDMI using a PC. And, of course, my Denon cannot receive PC audio through its USB port.

So I guess my only option here is to purchase a separate, DSD capable DAC, have it do the D/A conversion and then connect it to my Denon (I have only one home theater/music area). So before I do this, I was hoping to hear from others here as to their personal experiences and whether they felt keeping the true DSD experience was obviously superior to allowing for PCM conversion.

I can't really A/B test between my SACDs and PC effectively as the volume between the two inputs is considerably different and switching between inputs takes a good 5+ seconds. From my own person listening, I thought I was able to detect a difference from some SACDs (Stones' Sticky Fingers) but could not hear any difference whatsoever from others (Stones' Beggars Banquet, Dylan's Desire).

I recognize this may be subjective, but just curious what other's experience has been. Also, if you feel that DSD over USB is a must, let me know what external DAC you'd recommend for my purposes. I see the Topping MX5 would do the trick and it's certainly within the realm of reasonable as far as price.

Thanks!

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Out of interest...

Are you currently playing 2-channel (stereo) DSD files or are you interested in playing 6-channel (multi-channel) DSD files?

 

[marpow]

Good question, and I will try to work with you on this. Baby steps.
I use JRiver exclusively and have massive success.
Simple version of my set up. Dedicated PC with JRiver set up as player. USB out to external ExaSound MCH DAC, analog out (6 RCA cables) to the 7.1 section of my AVR.
In DSP JRiver settings make sure bit streaming is set to DSD.
This is my primary listen for all things FLAC and DSD (DSF file) whether stereo or surround.

Atmos: Same PC but HDMI out to AVR. Had to create an, what I named ATMOS ZONE, because of input and bitrate with Atmos video/music.
I exclusively use MKV files for ATMOS listening.
When I read your question, I tried to see if i can listen to DSD via this HDMI set up, I could not,

I did get a pop up that said:
Playback could not be started using the format 352.8Khz 2ch.
Either your sound card or receiver/DAC is reporting this format is not supported.
This format would work: 176.4Khz 2ch.
Would you like to have your DSP Studio>Output Format settings changed automatically?

I declined as my set up is working flawlessly and I did not want to mess things up accidentally.

Your basic question was about the USB out to an external DAC, I highly recommend the ExaSound company based in Canada, George is the driving force and will be very helpful. I have mine now 6 years plus, never once a problem.
I noticed they now have a few extra features that I do not have.

Good luck, keep asking me some questions if you need to.
exaSound Audio Design > Products > exaSound DACs - Features

 

[coolerking101]

Out of interest...

Are you currently playing 2-channel (stereo) DSD files or are you interested in playing 6-channel (multi-channel) DSD files?

I use it for both. I recognize finding an affordable DAC that does multichannel out may be....challenging.

 

[gene_stl]

I certainly have not answered the question for myself as to whether or not the differences (if any) between native DSD versus PCM are audible.

But if I was doing the test it would not be on program material recorded on 1969 analog equipment whose bit depth is only about 14 bits when fastidiously converted.

 

[coolerking101]

Good question, and I will try to work with you on this. Baby steps.
I use JRiver exclusively and have massive success.
Simple version of my set up. Dedicated PC with JRiver set up as player. USB out to external ExaSound MCH DAC, analog out (6 RCA cables) to the 7.1 section of my AVR.
In DSP JRiver settings make sure bit streaming is set to DSD.
This is my primary listen for all things FLAC and DSD (DSF file) whether stereo or surround.

Atmos: Same PC but HDMI out to AVR. Had to create an, what I named ATMOS ZONE, because of input and bitrate with Atmos video/music.
I exclusively use MKV files for ATMOS listening.
When I read your question, I tried to see if i can listen to DSD via this HDMI set up, I could not,

I did get a pop up that said:
Playback could not be started using the format 352.8Khz 2ch.
Either your sound card or receiver/DAC is reporting this format is not supported.
This format would work: 176.4Khz 2ch.
Would you like to have your DSP Studio>Output Format settings changed automatically?

I declined as my set up is working flawlessly and I did not want to mess things up accidentally.

Your basic question was about the USB out to an external DAC, I highly recommend the ExaSound company based in Canada, George is the driving force and will be very helpful. I have mine now 6 years plus, never once a problem.
I noticed they now have a few extra features that I do not have.

Good luck, keep asking me some questions if you need to.
exaSound Audio Design > Products > exaSound DACs - Features

Thanks for the reply. I would envision a setup similar to this. I'm glad to hear it works well and you're obviously very happy with it. I'd like to keep the DAC price considerably more manageable, though admittedly, I suspect I won't find a multichannel out DAC for under 1K. [EDIT: Topping makes one for $599]

Did you ever try listening to your ripped SACDs with PCM conversion? If so, did you feel like keeping it straight DSD was a significant improvement?

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes, it's a massive pain that (even in 2023) a native DSD (.dsd or .dff) bitstream can't be passed from a Windows computer via HDMI. Unless there is such a device now...

I can't really help you as I currently run an 'all analogue' set-up. I use an OPPO UDP-203 to play all my audio files, which is set to transcode all audio formats (including DSD) to PCM, prior to outputting analogue audio via it's 8-channel RCA/phono outputs to a maximum of 4 stereo amplifiers.

However, before I bought the OPPO UDP-203 I had an OPPO BDP-103 which was set-up to send a native DSD bitstream via it's HDMI output to an Onkyo AVR. This worked fine but I was not happy with the quality of the audio, especially when it came to listening to music.

 

[coolerking101]

I certainly have not answered the question for myself as to whether or not the differences (if any) between native DSD versus PCM are audible.

But if I was doing the test it would not be on program material recorded on 1969 analog equipment whose bit depth is only about 14 bits when fastidiously converted.

HAH. Fair point!

 

[coolerking101]

I should add I just realized that my Denon 3600 doesn't have 5.1 analog audio inputs...so I couldn't even use an external DAC to run multi-channel. I would be limited to stereo. Bummer. Guess I'm going to have to consider an AVR upgrade in the future.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I should add I just realized that my Denon 3600 doesn't have 5.1 analog audio inputs...so I couldn't even use an external DAC to run multi-channel. I would be limited to stereo. Bummer. Guess I'm going to have to consider an AVR upgrade in the future.

I can't remember... Did you mention that you have tried setting up your PC to transcode DSD to PCM prior to passing via HDMI to your Denon AVR?

 

[coolerking101]

I can't remember... Did you mention that you have tried setting up your PC to transcode DSD to PCM prior to passing via HDMI to your Denon AVR?

Yes. My PC does just that via JRiver. So I get audio, I'm just wondering how much I'm missing out by allowing that conversion process.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes. My PC does just that via JRiver. So I get audio, I'm just wondering how much I'm missing out by allowing that conversion process.

It all depends on the quality of the DAC's that's performing the transcoding...

From what I remember, the OPPO BDP-103 transcoded DSD to a 88.2kHz/24-bit PCM stream and had pretty good internal DAC's. Which were wasted on the Onkyo AVR as it sounded so poor with music.

 

[marpow]

Thanks for the reply. I would envision a setup similar to this. I'm glad to hear it works well and you're obviously very happy with it. I'd like to keep the DAC price considerably more manageable, though admittedly, I suspect I won't find a multichannel out DAC for under 1K. [EDIT: Topping makes one for $599]

Did you ever try listening to your ripped SACDs with PCM conversion? If so, did you feel like keeping it straight DSD was a significant improvement?

When I reformat the DSD (DSF File) for listening in my car, I re format to DSD>FLAC 16 bit/44.1Khz and plays perfect. I use the format tool included with JRiver.
I have never re-formatted just to listen at home, no reason to do that.
But in regards to your question, it certainly is an option in lieu of spending any amount of money on an external DAC.
I think from a sound of recording point of view, you might be able to hear the loss of softness that the DSD will have.
The Dynamic Range stays exactly the same when you do a re-format.
I have briefly tested the FLAC re-format to preview before putting on USB stick for car and sounds fine.

 

[jimfisheye]

The choice boils down to having to buy a DSD DA converter (at least 6 channels to support 5.1 audio) vs transcoding DSD to PCM to be able to use the boutique PCM DA converters I already have. (And have enough channels for Atmos and beyond already.)

There were a few opportunities to compare a SACD release to a bluray that both had the very same mastered source and thus compare DSD to PCM. The results null down to the noise floor. They sound the same A/B'ing by ear.

Can I know the masters are the same without literally the source files in front of me? Not explicitly of course. But when two copies of audio null down to -100db and the difference signal is an inaudible noise wiggle below -100db, that tells me that the audio is the same except for some conversion noise floor and also tells me that the transcode is virtually lossless. Just having a level difference between the same audio files produces audible difference files. So this null test observation carries weight.

So that was the decision and I listen to DSD transcoded to PCM at 88.2k 24 bit. Transcode with 32:1 decimation to 32 bit floating point. Normalize to near zero peak. Print to 24 bit fixed. DSD is more like handling 32 bit floating point audio. You might lose a bit of precision if you go straight to 24 bit fixed and there's risk of clipping. (Peak levels will be between -6db and +6db from the transcode.)

Aside:
Most of the modern DA converters we use can be run parallel for PCM or serial for DSD. I forget the older style PCM only strategy which some people still claim is superior to the newer style. This is all more akin to handling 32 bit floating point vs 24 bit fixed. And you can shuttle the 32 bit fp audio all over the place at different levels and as long as you frame it for 24 bit fixed before feeding it into your DAC, everything is golden. Maybe someone more deep into the tech can link some good explanation around the converter builds.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Aside:
Most of the modern DA converters we use can be run parallel for PCM or serial for DSD. I forget the older style PCM only strategy which some people still claim is superior to the newer style. This is all more akin to handling 32 bit floating point vs 24 bit fixed. And you can shuttle the 32 bit fp audio all over the place at different levels and as long as you frame it for 24 bit fixed before feeding it into your DAC, everything is golden. Maybe someone more deep into the tech can link some good explanation around the converter builds.

Yes, mathematically, DSD64 offers 2,822,400 snippets of information, which equates to the same number of snippets if you multiply 88,200 (Hz) by 32 (bits)...

 

[jimfisheye]

And then just a brief sanity check kind of comment on the bottom bits:
If someone thinks the lowest bits alone make an audible difference - like an audiophile discussion. This would be in the context of listening to audio with peak levels around 190db before you even turn it up to hear the lower level program. If your speakers are still in one piece, your ears sure aren't!

Maybe relevant for a "Shotgun Symphony" album! Actually more like Jet Fleet Symphony or Rocket Engine Symphony.

So I've got this classical series I'm working on...

 

[omnipotent1]

Convert to Flac and save yourself a ton of headaches,trust me!
I've done listening tests with a few other audio nerds and none of us could reliably tell the difference between any MCH or stereo flac vs DSD/DSF or PCM
The only differences we thought we heard turned out to be slight volume differences which disappeared once we level matched.
It's not easy to set up a proper level matched double blind test and going through my range of single malts whilst doing it added further challenges .
But it really opened my eyes to not getting hung up about frequency rates and bit depth.
After all some of my favorite MCH is old analog rips of cd4,sq and qs vinyl.

 

[jimfisheye]

Really truly!
While DSD is genuinely the same fidelity as PCM... we just don't need a different "digital language" to say the exact same thing. And that just forces buying DSD DA converters. An expensive sideways move.

Unless you have a consumer AVR which is probably using the same DAC chip for both DSD and PCM. Or converting internally to PCM. Just insultingly making a moot point of the whole audiophile argument!

These digital formats are robust! You're really hearing the mix work and mastering handling for good or bad.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Convert to Flac and save yourself a ton of headaches,trust me!
I've done listening tests with a few other audio nerds and none of us could reliably tell the difference between any MCH or stereo flac vs DSD/DSF or PCM
The only differences we thought we heard turned out to be slight volume differences which disappeared once we level matched.

Agreed... I have converted just about all of my stereo and multi-channel SACD's to FLAC at 88.2kHz/24-bit

EDIT: It is however a great shame that nobody has discovered a way of hacking a PC's HDMI drivers to pass a DSD bitstream...

 

[ssully]

To answer the thread subject question: no, it's not.

Simply convert the DSD files to PCM (.wav/.flac) files. Use 88/24 as the target format if you want the smallest files that are still 'hi rez' . You can do it easily with something like foobar's SACD plugin. Or course you have to 'rip' the SACD first.

If ripping is not an option, on-the-fly transcoding is fine. I simply object to the absurdly large DSD files inflated by their gobs of ultrasonic noise. (88/24 wav has some too...if you want it gone completely, choose a lower sample rate)

There should be no audible difference, despite imaginative claims to the contrary.