Ripping Quad Vinyl to Digital

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sKiZo

Well-known Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
179
Location
Michigan
Just picked up a slew of old Enoch Light and the Light Brigade ... the masters gems recreated using their original scores. Never knew I was into "big band" until I started listening, and now I can't stop!

Problem: I seem to be losing music information ripping to digital. Here's the process ...

- Rip full sides to uncompressed WAV using Audacity
- Process those WAV files in SoundForge, using "pop and click removal" (vinyl default) and "clipped peak restoration" (no attenuation - limit clips).
- Back to Audacity to break the files into tracks and convert to FLAC
- Playback in jRiver Media Center

Rips are nice and clean, but I can hear that music is missing. Instruments that POP on vinyl playback are barely there.

I would have thought that SQ and QS both would translate well and carry whatever encoding information was required along in a digital rip, but apparently I'm doing something wrong here, or it can't be done. Can't imagine it's a unique issue, so here I sit, waiting for the gurus to check in on this ...

popcorn.jpg
 
A bit more information, long as we're talking bits here ... <G>

Just dug out the original uncompressed WAV with no processing, and same results, only with pops and clicks as well as obvious clips here and there. The raw WAV was ripped at 48/16, which is recommended to provide additional resolution to accommodate the post processing of the material. That should be plenty of range to capture any decoder signal, even with CD4?

Table is a Mitsubishi DP-EC10 running an AT10S cartridge with a low mileage Shibata tip stylus. Vinyl playback is killer - no problems there.
 
It's unclear (to me at least) whether you're decoding the various formats before or after ripping to WAV? Also, are you using a phono preamp to record, or connecting the turntable directly to the computer? It would be helpful to know these two things for starters, then maybe we could figure things out from there.

One thing for sure: If you're recording the original 2 channel output from the turntable, 16/48 is probably good enough to capture QS, SQ etc. encoding, but not CD-4. The latter uses an ultrasonic modulated carrier that would not survive recording at the 48K sample rate. It would have to be at least 96K to get all the information from CD-4. (There are more considerations that this of course, but this would be the first one.)

-- Jim
 
OK then ... no problemo on CD4, as I don't have a lot of that. Forget I mentioned it.

I'm running my turntable into an external stage (Art DJ Pre II). That's plugged into a Behringer UCA202 ADC to do the digital conversion, and that's plugged into the computer via USB. It's two channel all the way. Once it hits the computer, I rip to uncompressed WAV using Audacity and then do minor cleanup in SoundForge. Final step is cutting the full side file to tracks and converting those to FLAC.

Can't really decode prior to the rip ... not sure how that would be possible in any case. I play the digital files directly off the computer using jRiver Media Center, same as I do with all my stereo stuff. The computer feeds an analog converter on my DAC via USB, which in turn feeds analog out into my Sansui QRX-9001.

This all works real well with standard stereo - I've ripped most of my vinyl using this setup and am real happy with the results. It's just with SQ right now that I know there's something ... not right ...

Not sure if it's just something particular to this album or not. I'll try a couple more to see if the results are consistent, but figured I'd stop by here and see if there's something obvious I'm overlooking. As stated, playback is EXCELLENT direct from the table - it's the digital version that's wonky.

* Just to clarify ... by "direct from the table" I mean from the table, to the Art DJ Pre II, to the analog IN on my DAC, and then analog OUT into the QRX. That works fine for needle drop plays.
 
OK then ... no problemo on CD4, as I don't have a lot of that. Forget I mentioned it.

Mentioned what? (Heh.)

I'm running my turntable into an external stage (Art DJ Pre II). That's plugged into a Behringer UCA202 ADC to do the digital conversion, and that's plugged into the computer via USB. It's two channel all the way. Once it hits the computer, I rip to uncompressed WAV using Audacity and then do minor cleanup in SoundForge. Final step is cutting the full side file to tracks and converting those to FLAC.

Ah, OK. Thanks for clarifying.

Can't really decode prior to the rip ... not sure how that would be possible in any case. I play the digital files directly off the computer using jRiver Media Center, same as I do with all my stereo stuff. The computer feeds an analog converter on my DAC via USB, which in turn feeds analog out into my Sansui QRX-9001.

Just curious (don't have much experience with actual old-school quad gear): Apparently your Sansui has some way to bypass the phono input, with its (redundant in this case) preamp & RIAA EQ, but still make use of the various quad decoders? I didn't know that was possible.

...Not sure if it's just something particular to this album or not. I'll try a couple more to see if the results are consistent, but figured I'd stop by here and see if there's something obvious I'm overlooking. As stated, playback is EXCELLENT direct from the table - it's the digital version that's wonky.

* Just to clarify ... by "direct from the table" I mean from the table, to the Art DJ Pre II, to the analog IN on my DAC, and then analog OUT into the QRX. That works fine for needle drop plays.

So with that last bit (that works OK), are you going in/out of the computer at all, or just analog into the DAC then loopback immediately to the analog out, no A/D/A conversion happening?

-- Jim
 
You can bypass the phono on any receiver, using a tape loop. In my case, I just prefer the Art DJ Pre II to the internal phono on the QRX. Lots more versatile for tweaking the capacitance and such, and I've also got a dbx 21 decoder and dbx SNR1 single sided noise reduction I can switch in or out as needed. Those are both bypassed when recording (and for most playback).

The computer is out of the loop when doing direct needle drops. I've got an RCA switcher to do that. The external phono stage plugs into the switcher, and from there, I can route the signal either into the Behringer ADC for ripping, or to the Analog IN jacks on my DAC. In both cases, digital feed or turntable direct, the signal is then routed into the QRX receiver via the return side of the loop. It's there that the decoding happens.

Sounds a lot more complicated than it is really.
 
You can bypass the phono on any receiver, using a tape loop. In my case, I just prefer the Art DJ Pre II to the internal phono on the QRX. Lots more versatile for tweaking the capacitance and such, and I've also got a dbx 21 decoder and dbx SNR1 single sided noise reduction I can switch in or out as needed. Those are both bypassed when recording (and for most playback).

Oh, the tape loop! Been so long, I forgot about those. :) That was always a handy patch point on those old receivers.

The computer is out of the loop when doing direct needle drops. I've got an RCA switcher to do that. The external phono stage plugs into the switcher, and from there, I can route the signal either into the Behringer ADC for ripping, or to the Analog IN jacks on my DAC. In both cases, digital feed or turntable direct, the signal is then routed into the QRX receiver via the return side of the loop. It's there that the decoding happens.

OK, I get it now. So, regular 2-channel FLACs made via this setup sound OK, is it just the quad stuff that gets weird? I wonder if something in JRiver is messing with your playback - maybe something switched on in the DSP section? Have you tried playback of the original unedited WAV direct from Audacity, to see if that makes any difference?
 
... put on my Sherlock Holmes hat ...

Dug out my Audio Technica USB turntable to eliminate all the clutter in the old recording chain. Ripped one album side using that plugged directly into the computer for comparison purposes, and did all the digital stuff in Sound Forge this time around.Wahoo! At least as good as the vinyl, WITH noise reduction and clip restoration. Huh ...

Did some more digging and compared what I got from the original setup with just the USB turntable, and what did my little eye spy?

sqrip.jpg


Top two tracks are the original rip that was missing information. Pretty obvious that for whatever reason, the system went mono during the rip. Bottom two tracks are the good rip - real easy to see where the missing instruments went!

Pretty sure the problem's with the Behringer ADC ... I just replaced that (and the cables) after the old one failed, so I think I'll write it up as a lost cause and stick with the USB table. In any case, good to have a working Plan B. I'll continue to stick with SoundForge for ripping and post processing, and let jRiver do the FLAC conversions - that's working, and I'll save trying to troubleshoot the failed process for the dead of winter when the walls start closing in and I'm totally bored. As mentioned, most of my vinyl's already ripped ... just some odd leftovers and new additions to deal with now, and the table is doing a stellar job. AT-LP2D if anyone's interested ...
 
Pretty obvious that for whatever reason, the system went mono during the rip. Bottom two tracks are the good rip - real easy to see where the missing instruments went!

I be damned! Nice sleuthing.

Not for nuthin, but I've had terrible luck with Behringer gear my own self. I've heard from a few buds that they've gotten their QC act together somewhat in recent years, but I'm still bitter enough to look elsewhere. Too bad, because they do have some innovative features on some of their stuff.

Glad you're up & ripping again.

-- Jim
 
One last update ... along with a heartfelt dOH!

Did some more spelunking, and found the problem with the other setup. Bad cable. I know I replaced the original one, but managed to dig out yet another bad one. Pack rat that I am, I apparently stashed those aside thinking to fix them - they're in the trash now, as keeping them around just ain't worth the aggravation ... grrrrrrrRRRrrrrr ...

Also swapped the old Behringer UCA202 in and that's also working fine now ... I got another one when the first one came up with a missing channel ... (once again, due to the bad cable) double grrrrrrRRRrrrrrrr ...

So. All's well in sKiZoLand ... for now anyway.

PS ... one of the things that slowed down the troubleshooting ... Audacity apparently sense a mono signal (due to the missing channel) and had the audacity to revert to dual band mono. Showed right up in SoundForge, as that's not smart enough to go dual mono - or is it that it's too smart to do something stoopid like that without telling me? In any case, I don't much care for Audacity and it's effects, so back to ripping with SoundForge full time. Stick with what you know, eh ... the program does a much better job of declicking anyway.

Bonus ... once I'm done ripping my quad albums, I'll be ready for the dbx digital transfers. Just gotta enable the decoder, and good to go on those using the original turntable setup.

The End?
 
I am reviving this thread, I hope that's ok with the OP.

I have a few quad vinyl records (mainly SQ), a USB turntable, a multichannel USB audio interface (Focusrite Scarlett 18i20) and Audacity as well as the DAW Presonus Studio One. How should I go about digitising my records? Many thanks!
 
I am reviving this thread, I hope that's ok with the OP.

I have a few quad vinyl records (mainly SQ), a USB turntable, a multichannel USB audio interface (Focusrite Scarlett 18i20) and Audacity as well as the DAW Presonus Studio One. How should I go about digitising my records? Many thanks!
I haven't done this, so it's where I would start instead of saying this is what I do. Clear as mud, right?

Anyway, I have a MCH audio card in my PC (Device manager says it's NVIDIA high definition audio, but I'd have to pull the cover and double check). I'd just run the output of my quad decoder into the card's inputs. I'd use Goldwave to record the files and edit the side of the LP into FLAC files.

At least that's what I might end up doing sometime down the road. I've done similar rips on stereo records and tapes, and they seem to work fine to my ears.
 
I am reviving this thread, I hope that's ok with the OP.

I have a few quad vinyl records (mainly SQ), a USB turntable, a multichannel USB audio interface (Focusrite Scarlett 18i20) and Audacity as well as the DAW Presonus Studio One. How should I go about digitising my records? Many thanks!
It sounds like you are off to a good start. That interface looks like a quality unit. I have no experience with USB turntables but it looks like many of them can digitise vinyl themselves as well.

I recommend recording in the highest resolution that your system is capable of. That may sound like overkill but I believe that processing such as click repair works much better that way. You can always down sample and reduce bit depth for the finished product.

Once you have a cleaned up wav file of your album side you are ready to split it into tracks, I use CD Wave. you can save the files as flac, wave or various compressed formats. I recommend flac.

http://www.milosoftware.com/en/index.php?body=cdwave.php
Do both album sides and store them in a folder titled with the album name. Assuming that your original recordings were labeled with the same name differentiated by a number (i.e. 1 for side1 and 2 for side2), all the split files will be sequentially numbered as well. Drag that folder into Mp3Tag to automatically tag and name your files.

https://www.mp3tag.de/en/index.html
Select all files, then under tag sources I like to pick "Discogs Release ID". Just find your album in Discogs and copy the release ID number pasting it into the dialogue box in Mp3Tag. A new dialogue box will open you can uncheck the information that you do not want recorded in your tags. Once done those setting will stay until you change them again, they don't have to be changed each time. With vinyl you will need to edit the track numbering from A1, A2, B1 etc. to sequential track numbers. Then click OK. Tags are instantly written. Finally use Tag-Filename to label your tracks. I label mine track number - song name. The string for that looks like ($num(%track%,2) - %title%). Using this method you can tag and label your album tracks in minutes!
 
At the risk of boring you all with outdated information this is the story of my journey and evolution in the world of digital recording in particular the "ripping" of vinyl. In 1999 we got our first home desktop computer, running Windows 98. It had a Creative Sound Blaster sound card installed. I made up a cable (RCA to 3.5mm) to connect my preamp to the input of the sound card. I used Goldwave and recorded at 44.1 Khz/16 bit.
https://goldwave.com/release.phpI split into tracks by cutting and saving tracks from the original recording. I then burned to a CD using an early version of Roxio CD Creator.
That early version wasn't smart enough to add samples as required to make each track the proper length to conform to the CD standard, the result was a CD with loud clicks between tracks. I found CD Wave to solve that problem. I still use it today to split tracks.

http://www.milosoftware.com/en/index.php?body=cdwave.php
Shortly after that I discovered Wave Corrector to get rid of the ticks and pops and it was also able to split the tracks on the correct boundaries. What I discovered early on is not to end a track too soon. Most songs fade out rather than end abruptly, if cut too soon you may cut off part of the fade. Now I split the track very close to the start of the next song, to prevent chopping off any fade out.

https://wavecor.co.uk/
So I wanted to be able to dub my Q8 and quad reel tapes as others had started to do. I came across two suitable soundcards that had four inputs, both sold by the same retailer. The Maya 44 and the Delta 44. The seller recommended the Delta as it was 24bit. I went with the more affordable Maya card, at that time I didn't think that 24 bit was even necessary. Goldwave only did stereo so I found N-Track studio to enable multichannel recording.

https://ntrack.com/
I used N-Track to record my tapes and saved them as separate mono wav files. Mono wav files were needed by the Surcode DTS encoder which I was using to make multichannel CDs. I could then open each mono wav file in Goldwave and apply noise reduction, I also normalised each mono file. Normalising each file separately worked well for most quad titles. Some however were meant to have lower level rear channels and didn't sound right that way. No problem The Millenium DTS decoder that I was using had a level adjust pot for the surround channels right on the front of the unit, so it was easy to tweak the rear playback level.

Burning a DTS disc required the file to be done as disc at once (no gaps between tracks) otherwise the DTS decoder would drop out and then back on at the start of each track. I couldn't do it with Roxio and so had to use Nero instead. Nero was not nearly as user friendly as Roxio but it got the job done. The single DTS encoded wav file had to be opened in Nero and then the track splits could be set. I did that by opening one of the mono wav files in CD wave and recorded the times that I wanted to split the tracks at on a piece of paper. Hey that
sounds like a playlist! I don't know If the use of a play list was supported at that time or if I even knew anything about such a thing!

I finally did purchase the Delta sound card and was blown away by the improvement in sound quality. Now I could record at 96Khz 24bit!
Latter on Delta cards started showing up on eBay at attractive prices I eventually purchased another Delta 44 and a couple Delta 66 cards as well. Now I could put one in each of my desktop computers. I had started using Adobe Audition and it had a surround encoder or mixer built in so that I could now save my recordings as a six channel wav or flac file. The saved files only played the front channels through my four channel sound card as the next two tracks were reserved for center and Lfe. I found out that I could use Foobar "Matrix Mixer" to convert those 5.1 files to 4.0. Today people have the opposite problem in that 4.0 files will not work with a lot of AVRs and so have to be converted to six channel with silent centre and Lfe channels!

To finish the story off next I purchased a Digigram VX882HR sound card. It is a professional card with eight balanced audio inputs and outputs as well as AES/EBU Digital I/Os. With that card I can now do 192Khz 24bit. Although now discontinued that card originally sold for something like 2K. I got mine for something like $300 on eBay. There is one listed there now that I have my eye on it's always great to have a spare, the snake (cable assembly) alone often sells for a couple of hundred.

Audio drivers have always been a bit problematic. The old computers didn't seem to like having more than one sound card installed, causing many audio problems. Today I like to use Asio drivers whenever possible, they are said to have lower latency. Often an audio program will not release the Asio driver when switching to a different program. A computer reset will usually fix the problem but not always!
 
Aside from a good digital setup for recording vinyl you need a quality vinyl playback system. Otherwise the old adage garbage in garbage out applies. In general Audiophiles are very particular about their own system each having strong opinions about what exactly is best.
While I don’t claim that my set up is the best but it has evolved to become the best that I personally have ever owned or have ever seen elsewhere.
I was going to document my vinyl journey here but the post became too long and so will be starting a new thread. I don't want to steer this thread too far off topic. Stay tuned!
 
@par4ken, I use the same programs (Goldwave and Roxio), but I've never had any issues with either one making pops at edit points. Your points about not cutting a song off too early is spot on - been there, done that, and of course by then the source had left the building.
 
My explanation was not exactly correct the burning program adding zeros is what caused the clicks. Very possible that the problem got fixed in later versions of Roxio. I know of other people who never had the same issue. Here is the explanation from the CD wave site. I wonder if It makes a difference if you use disc at once vs track at once? I always use disc at once.

Why is splitting on 2352 byte/588 sample borders so important?

A CD audio disc is divided into sectors. Each sector holds 1/75 seconds of audio, or 588 samples at 44100 samples per second, or 2352 bytes. If the size of a WAV recording is not a multiple of 588 samples, the recording software will fill the remainder of the sector with zeroes. If you have a continuous recording (live), you’ll hear a short click in between two songs, as a result of the padding zeroes. To prevent this, the program always cuts on 588 sample borders, so two adjacent songs will have no clicks in between.
 
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