Time To Take A Stand

[Guy Robinson]

Well I had to post this. The more and more I think about it the more I think we "multichannel people" should take a stand. When people buy the entire SACD catalogue of an artist in stereo what message is that sending to the purveyors of SACD? If I were them I would be thinking that people find the stereo version acceptable. Lets see, spend 6 months doing a surround mix that costs potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars or spend very little just converting the stereo master to DSD. Being a bottom line kind of person which would I choose? I am selling the stereo discs anyway so maybe the public doesn't want multi-channel. Even the ones that vehemently say they do want surround buy the stereo stuff we put out. I am picking on SACD as DVD-A is always surround except for one company that I believe Cai (or Jon) mentioned. That company is an anomaly. People that buy DVD-A are always voting for surround. A few months back I swore that I would never buy another stereo disc of any kind be it CD (I don't want anymore of those anyway), DVD-A (a moot point) or SACD. I bought 5 Stones titles and that was it for me. The turning point so to speak. Over the next few years we will reap what they sow and what we accept. Mark my words.

 

[Guy Robinson]

It's been a long day here is EST. I meant to say at the end, "If we will reap what they sow regardless of whether the crop is to our liking, they will plant the same crop next year."

 

[daved64]

Just as we evolved from mono to stereo, so must we evolve to the next step, and for me that's surround.....5.1, 6.1....whatever.
I bought Night at The Opera when it first came out on cd.....I then bought the Hollywood Records remaster.....if it had come out on DVD-A in stereo only, was I going to shell out another bunch of coin? Not a chance. I don't find the step from CD to Hi Rez stereo an orgasmic experience.....but when I heard ANATO in surround, I had a smile on my face thru most of it. I tried to listen to Dark Side in stereo only, but got bored 1/3 the way and switched to the multichannel. This does not mean I will not buy any new stereo music period, but to buy...let's say...The White Album for the 5th time (LP, Japanese LP, CD, 30th Anniversary CD....and hopefully DVD-A) and have it in stereo only would be pointless. The only people happy will be the record execs, selling us the same dung over and over and over...

 

[Cai Campbell]

Well, as much as I love surround-sound, I'm certainly not going to stop buying stereo titles. I love stereo too! Hell, I just love music. I buy a lot of music, and probably 70% of it is stereo (mostly records, but CD's and SACD's as well).

Sorry Guy, I'm not willing to take that stand with ya! I can certainly appreciate your sentiment, though. I'd buy more titles in surround if they were available, but I don't want to deny myself the enjoyment of titles that are not released in surround.

 

[Guy Robinson]

It really wasn't formal commitment that I was looking for. I was just trying to get across that if we keep buying the stereo only titles we will have ourselves to blame when less and less surround discs are released because of stereo only acceptance.

Cai, at least do you agree that what I am saying is true or do you think that my scenario is flawed?

 

[Cai Campbell]

I think there is a lot of truth to what you are saying, but I don't think it is a conspiracy or anything. It's just the usual market forces at work: supply, demand, production costs, etc.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Well you are right and that is what I was trying to say. I don't think there is a conspiracy either. We are the author of our own destiny and when we send a message that stereo is enough that is what we will get.

 

[Scottmoose]

In principle, I'd have to agree with both of you. The majority of my collection (generally CD based) is stereo, and I love it all to death. If I didn't, I wouldn't buy it.
Whilst I would agree that surround is a nice ideal, and with a good 50% of my stereo collection, I enjoy synthing 4.0 (well, almost) from the original, with the remainder, I don't even try, and listen in straight stereo simply because the music doesn't really suit surround.
Would 5.1 studio PJ Harvey, for example, really have that much of an an advantage over straight stereo? Not really, with a couple of exceptions.
Floyd, Eno, King Crimson, Led Zeppelin, Rick Wakeman, Yes etc... now you're talking.
Certainly the new formats big advantage over CD is really their capability for surround sound, rather than their 'improved' quality in stereo. Oh, they're better alright, but not massively so if we're being blunt. Redbook CD still sounds pretty good to me in stereo on decent kit. And good quality stereo for me, at any rate, will remain preferable to mediocre multi-channel, which producers are often still getting to grips with.
Won't they be having fun when ambisonics takes a grip and we start getting height information! :rollin:

 

[Guy Robinson]

Well, I never do anything half-way and that is just my personality.

You obviously have a point to not doing without a title when it is only released in stereo. For instance I would definately want a copy of Peter Gabriel's third title (melted face) for instance. However, this disc would sound fantastic in surround. When I see that is only released in stereo SACD then I vote by not buying it. It's just another slightly better (probably) version of what I already have on a CD. Because this would sound great in surround I am saying that I don't want anymore stereo versions of that disc. Give me surround or just leave me with the CD. If the music would not benefit from surround then that is obviously different. With the type of music I listen to very little would not benefit from surround. Bob Dylan singing solo with just a guitar is not my style.

 

[AllAroundSurround]

I agree with you , if it's just another stereo re-release what's the point .. Give me Surround, or give me .. death . I mean nothing.
0] Rob

 

[krnewman]

I still collect 8-track tapes and actually listen to them. I collect reel2reel (a good 7 1/2 ips r2r is my ultimate in ear candy), cassette, 78 records, LP's, old time radio shows in mp3, you name it. About the only thing I have no interest in is 45's but I still keep a few hundred of those for the kids ("I walk the Line" by Johnny Cash still sounds good on 45 on a Saturday night, scratches, hiss, pops and all).

I guess I'm less interested that something sound perfect, than that it soun perfectly appropriate.

Certain types of "bad" sounds sound good, at least to my ear. For example, certain types of pop music from Africa and India only sound right on speakers that have a certain amount of damage to them, and played back so that there is a certain level of distortion from the amp. And the guys that mix these records and cd's know that that's how they'll be played back and they actually do the mix so that it will sound best in that playback context, not for the ideal audiophile system in Los Angeles or London, but for a corner bar in Lagos or Mumbai. I've actually heard Bollywood songs where the woman's high soprano isn't distorted all to hell and it just doesn't sound right.

So, I guess in short, I'm open to anything, anything at all, as long as the sound is pleasing to me and sounds "right."

I don't like bogusness, like some of the early stereo rock records that put all the instruments in the left and all the vocals in the right. Or fake stereo that just puts a bit of reverb into the right channel. Of the DTS "surround" theme song by Queen to the first Highlander movie where the rear is just a little bit of very annoying digital delay of the stereo front (this is also done to the acoustic tune by Sting at the end of the DTS DVD of Emperor's New Groove, even though the beginning song by Tom Jones is in glorious dts surround). A good honest mono mix will beat a bogus stereo mix every time and a good honest stereo mix beats a bogus surround mix.

 

[Cai Campbell]

"A good honest mono mix will beat a bogus stereo mix every time and a good honest stereo mix beats a bogus surround mix."

Amen brother! :

 

[Guy Robinson]

This is what I like a good discussion without flaming.

I agree on the bogus mix point being made. It must be done right. However, when I see stuff being released in the new hi-rez formats in stereo that could definately benefit from a surround approach and that format does support surround, I think it is just lazy on behalf of the record companies to not provide that surround as well as the stereo when they are bothering to re-release the title once again. That was a run-on sentence if I ever heard one. I don't really want to re-purchase it yet again when it is released in surround a year after that. I will however re-puchase it when it comes out in the memory chip version that plugs into the audio/video module that is directly wired to the appropriate regions of my brain.

 

[AllAroundSurround]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I will however re-puchase it when it comes out in the memory chip version that plugs into the audio/video module that is directly wired to the appropriate regions of my brain. [/quote]
I feel like this subject was done before, or is it that my my biovideo implant's stuck in "The MATRIX" mode again.. again..again......... Max Headroom..Look out!
0] Rob

 

[Scottmoose]

Looks Like I'm in agreement with just about everyone!
I still rather like my (large) CD collection, and I will always maintain that high quality 2 channel will beat mediocre multi-channel any day of the week (no mono recordings owned currently). That doesn't mean that I don't derive enjoyment from synthing extra channels from some of it though, or my multi-channel setups!
Laziness on the part of the big labels probably plays a part. The other catch is that the record companies and groups know damn well there aren't many people out there who can do surround mixing to a high enough standard yet, compared to stereo. Pity really.
BTW, what's all this I hear about SACD having higher distortion levels above 10KHz than CD (or DVD-A for that matter)? If it's true, that's been kept quiet hasn't it!