Wise Words - Audio Fidelity Moves to Selective Multichannel SACD Releases

[steelydave]

An Eagles set would only make sense if they had Quad mixes in the vaults for the first album and "Desperado" to go along with the two that got released.
But if they're looking into some single Quad releases after the Chicago set comes out, either "On the Border" or "One of These Nights" would be excellent choices indeed!

I agree the Doobies are probably the lowest hanging of the remaining fruit, quad-wise. The band doesn't seem to be averse at all to repackaging/reissuing their catalog, and Warners just did recent hires stereo transfers of all their albums (available at Pono, HDTracks, etc.) so all that would be remaining to do would be the quad transfers. If they were feeling generous they could throw in the 5.1 Scheiner mix of The Captain And Me, and the 5.1 mix of Minute By Minute (mentioned in a WB 'upcoming titles' thing but never released) if the mix was completed.

Beyond that I think the Eagles would be the next best choice, if they're feeling cooperative. Both the first album and Desperado are listed on the 'announced but not released' page of Mark Anderson's quad discography (along with catalog numbers) so it's very possible they do exist. It seems from things I've read (as I'll explain pertaining to Joni Mitchell below) that WB were doing a lot of quad mixing before they actually started releasing quad product. It's hard to really get your head around now, but the industry was moving so fast back then (most artists releasing an album a year, some artists 2 a year) that if things didn't get done quickly enough the album was considered 'old' and they were on to the next one. So it's certainly possible that the quad mixes of the self-titled album and Desperado were in the can but that they put them on the backburner in favour of the new albums at the time (On The Border in '74 and One Of These Nights in '75) and by early '76 Elektra was done with quad so there was no more time to put any more albums out.

Joni Mitchell only had 2 albums released in quad (Court & Spark in '74 and Hissing Of Summer Lawns in '75) but I was reading an issue of Billboard from 1971 recently which had a whole section devoted to quad and it had an interview with Lee Herschberg (one of WB's senior engineers) and he was talking about mixing the Joni Mitchell song 'Carey' for quad. Carey is a song off the 'Blue' album from 1971 so it's possible an unreleased quad mix of the whole album exists, and if it does, it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that an unreleased quad mix of 'For The Roses' (the album in between Blue and Court & Spark) exists either. On Top of that, 4 of her albums (Blue, Court & Spark, Hejira, and Ladies Of The Canyon) were on the WB 5.1 DVD-A future releases list so there may be even more there.

There are also 5 Frank Sinatra albums (not his best stuff, but great mixes and some fun music), 4 albums + 1 greatest hits + 1 unreleased from Carly Simon, 4 Seals and Crofts albums, 3 Spinners albums (great mixes done by Don Murray who did the O'Jays Ship Ahoy quad mix) amongst others...obviously some of these are more niche than others.

 

[cupboy]

I'm sure they've read and heard all the criticism of what went before - and I think you're right, the Doobies would seem the most likely next dose of Quadio. And maybe some Eagles? Either way, I'd be jumping all over it...

Doobies would be fantastic. Eagles... don't care too much about that. Is Black Sabbath still on Warners? Maybe not.

 

[0tto]

Is Black Sabbath still on Warners? Maybe not.

but there only one real quad "Paranoid" and one rumored "Sabotage"

 

[privateuniverse]

Here's a Billboard article that talks about why the industry likes issuing box sets.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

Here's a Billboard article that talks about why the industry likes issuing box sets.

One thing that I have noticed the last few years is that Grateful Dead fans REALLY support the band...they might not have the lofty numbers(of fans)but when it comes to buying these lavish box sets they don't hesitate...nice find on the article

 

[0tto]

i would take this article with grain of salt. after all someone also commissioned it as well, as a label needs commissioned essays.
nevertheless its good to see some numbers of sales, which usually labels don't like to reveal. this article just proved mine previous guess,
the success of physical medium sales, including surround new releases, nowadays sustained exclusively by the hardcore fanbase.
no anymore purchases motivated by curiosity.

 

[bmoura]

One thing that I have noticed the last few years is that Grateful Dead fans REALLY support the band...they might not have the lofty numbers(of fans)but when it comes to buying these lavish box sets they don't hesitate...nice find on the article

These days the movie industry spins out quite a few sequels. And some of the movie companies also own some of the major record labels.
So this trend towards Anniversary Editions and Box Sets from the major record labels is very easily understood in that light.

 

[cupboy]

Here's a Billboard article that talks about why the industry likes issuing box sets.

Billboard could use a better coder. That website is just wacky.

 

[Plan9]

Joni Mitchell only had 2 albums released in quad (Court & Spark in '74 and Hissing Of Summer Lawns in '75) but I was reading an issue of Billboard from 1971 recently which had a whole section devoted to quad and it had an interview with Lee Herschberg (one of WB's senior engineers) and he was talking about mixing the Joni Mitchell song 'Carey' for quad. Carey is a song off the 'Blue' album from 1971 so it's possible an unreleased quad mix of the whole album exists, and if it does, it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that an unreleased quad mix of 'For The Roses' (the album in between Blue and Court & Spark) exists either. On Top of that, 4 of her albums (Blue, Court & Spark, Hejira, and Ladies Of The Canyon) were on the WB 5.1 DVD-A future releases list so there may be even more there.

Man, Joni Mitchell's Blue in Quad or 5.1 would be a dream come true for me. It would go right next to the amazing stereo DCC CD.

 

[Circular Vibes]

While I am saddened that the multichannel SACD program is slowing down and not as profitable as hoped, I plan on buying the ones I missed out on while paying for my move over the last few months. I am enjoying even the sleeper titles once in a while. I hope Marshall and the great guys over at Audio Fidelity get to read this thread. I am thankful for anything surround that I can afford that improves on the old records and tapes and competes for price and sonic value. It is not likely that I will buy many stereo or mono discs on Hi Rez, but it isn't impossible. I just prefer to spend my money on multichannel. I also have bought a few stereo BD-A's and the odd jazz remaster on SACD in heretical mono. At least with the slow down in releasing titles, I can catch up on the missing titles next month, if there are any left of some titles. I also applaud AF for quickly making good on titles that got screwed up in production, few others have that integrity. I applaud AF and support them with my wallet.

 

[wavelength]

Man, Joni Mitchell's Blue in Quad or 5.1 would be a dream come true for me.

Gotta have Blue in surround; yes, a dream come true, it would be.

 

[ssully]

I respectfully disagree on the comment that the resurgence of vinyl is simply a cool factor. I have had the pleasure of sitting down in front of a high end audio system and A - B ing an audiophile vinyl release with its redbook cd counterpart played back on a Mcintosh cd/dvda player Vs a $3,500+ Rega turntable/ top of the line Grado MM cartridge, and I will tell you that the Vinyl is noticeably fuller and richer sounding with considerably more detail. It however falls short to my ear in comparison to its DVDA counterpart. That being said I know not many of us can spend $3,500+ dollars on a turntable, but there are those that can and do, just pick up any issue of stereophile.

How did you control for simple mastering differences between the LP and CD versions? How did you match levels?

Here's a better test. Record the output of the LP preamp digitally. Redbook rates should be fine, or higher if you feel like it. Burn it to disc or play it as a file. Match the playback level carefully, then do a blind A/B. I bet that 'fuller richer more detailed' sound will be right there on the digital file too.

 

[JonUrban]

To be honest, I don't see any music marketing on TV anymore. It was just one of those things that seemed to disappear overnight. I can quite fondly remember as a kid not only all those Time Life or K-Tel sets, but some artists/groups would advertise their latest album on TV. I guess it's cost-prohibitive these days.

It's hard to find music marketing ANYWHERE these days. One might wonder why there was never an ad in Sound & Vision promoting any of the AF SACD releases. Sound & Vision has been very surround friendly over the past decade and usually highlights one surround title per issue, sometimes going with an entire article on a release - yet there was never one mention (aside from my letter to the editor about "The Best of Doors") about any AF SACD release. No spotlight articles, no box ads, nothing. Could there have been a better response to the program if more people knew about it? How does someone with a surround system who is not on QQ, AVS or SHF even know about these SACDs unless they currently frequent Acoustic Sounds, Music Direct or Elusive Disc?

 

[JonUrban]

I respectfully disagree on the comment that the resurgence of vinyl is simply a cool factor.

I didn't mean it was the only factor. I just meant to say it's a lot more fashionable these days to have a turntable and LPs than it was even 10 years ago. Analog is "cool".

 

[0tto]

Here's a better test. Record the output of the LP preamp digitally. Redbook rates should be fine, or higher if you feel like it. Burn it to disc or play it as a file. Match the playback level carefully, then do a blind A/B. I bet that 'fuller richer more detailed' sound will be right there on the digital file too.

that's interesting point. seems like for early issues CDs (late 80s - beginning 90s) labels was in hurry to print as much as possible titles
and have used original source-masters, which was done for previous vinyl runs. even on some old CDs obvious tape noise can be heard
but nevertheless, they still sound way better than majority of following from mid 90s so call "remaster editions".
as for suggested test, i've been through it. its easy to spot difference between original LP and same LP but recorded at 16 bit.

 

[key_wiz]

Hmmmm.....not sure what to think of this thread.

1) I've never been one to either complain about the titles released or sit around wishing for what could be---especially if the wish-list is beyond what is easily attainable by the reissue labels. At the same time, I'm not sure I need to waste much time thanking them over and over for being so gracious for releasing what they do release. If they release something I think is worth spending $25 to hear? I thank them by purchasing it. If not, I don't. They are doing this as a business, not a charity.

2) The labels continually shoot themselves in the foot in this business. We are a dying market. Few of us are under 50. Maybe saying few are under 60 or 70 makes more sense at this point. Yet, instead of trying to reach younger consumers they focus on trying to milk what is left of this dwindling market by making their products as "precious" as possible. Are the labels that own these old quad masters really charging so much for the licensing that it's difficult for the reissue labels to recoup their costs? Shame on them, if that's the case. They haven't made a dime on these old quad masters in over FORTY YEARS. That they can make ANYTHING at all on them at this point is a godsend and gravy. If not for the few of us left that actually want to hear them, they'd just be garbage.

And the reissue labels? I don't suspect they are getting rich on anything, but milking the same old titles and trying to upsell them as super-duper-extra-never-before-heard high quality and charging $25+ for them? Really? Is this REALLY the best business model? Why is it I can buy a BD of a recently made $100,000,000 movie with all sorts of bonus features for less than it costs me for the latest-greatest "hi-rez" version of some decades old album that has already sold a gazillion copies and paid for itself thousands of times over already?

If they really wanted to try to move some product and open it up to new markets, maybe we should be seeing $10 copies of BluRay surround mixes of the classic titles that already exist and market them like they do the movies. Make them impulse purchases at the supermarket checkout aisles and market them to the classic rock fans who already have surround sound systems--get them interested in the new formats (or not) and then when a bunch of copies of that stuff is sold, they can then move on to the more esoteric titles and maybe even have the money for new surround mixes?

But no. Instead they treat them all as rare, precious commodities with gold-plated pressings that you have to be some sort of "insider" to know they were even released and be able to find them. What kind of business model is this? Especially when the bulk of your market will be dead or deaf in 10 years?

Sorry if I sound jaded or mean. But the labels are dropping the ball on this big time. Yes, I'm grateful for AF releasing the MC titles they release. Yes, I purchase all the ones I'm interested in. But that it should be some big rare, expensive, limited edition event for anyone to release some decades old quad mix?

I feel like we are being taken advantage of here to a large degree. The audiophile crowd has been for years and now those of us interested in MC are being corralled in with that group. I doubt if even 1 in 100 people realize that MC audio of classic albums even exists. Make it easy to find and affordable instead of treating it like $1,000 audio cables.

 

[newbyquad]

The youngsters will never know the pleasure I had of listening to awesome records played through a fine stereo system with my buddies after a pipe of green and a few beers. Or listening to a great DJ playing his or her favorites late at night while high as a kite playing backgammon or blackjack. Oh well.

 

[cupboy]

The youngsters will never know the pleasure I had of listening to awesome records played through a fine stereo system with my buddies after a pipe of green and a few beers. Or listening to a great DJ playing his or her favorites late at night while high as a kite playing backgammon or blackjack. Oh well.

Just think of all the spare money the youngsters will have for other things though.

Fancier phones, fancier skateboards...

 

[skherbeck]

Thinking about the cool factor of LPs with young people: My father (70 years old) had bought Crosley record players for both my kids and my nephew (all in their teens), as well as classic "starter" LPs; two out of three of them are really into LPs now as a result (but honestly, music played through an $80-100 Crosley sounds like crap in my opinion!) Point is, it's a hobby that's relatively cheap and easy to introduce someone else too. the problem with surround, is that it's difficult to set someone else set-up in the hobby... I've thought about getting my Dad into surround, but between the equipment, the dedicated space in his house, and starter discs (not to mention the steep learning curve), it's just not feasible. Seriously, I've been studying here at the QQ University over a year, and I still don't know anything about "DSD Downloads" (among many other aspects of the hobby). This really is a hobby that one has to aggressively pursue on one's own, via research and expenditure... and it's too bad it has to be that way.

If surround sound music was aggressively marketed towards 35-40 year olds (the people interested in "cool factor" and who are old enough to have some money to spend), and music selections from the 90's-2000's (and later) were provided, it might have a chance...

Sorry... just ramblin'...

 

[0tto]

Thinking about the cool factor of LPs with young people...
I've thought about getting my Dad into surround, but between the equipment, the dedicated space in his house, and starter discs (not to mention the steep learning curve), it's just not feasible.

just ramblin'...

frankly it's not a rambling but quite valid point.
as hard for newer artists to appeal to audience 50 and up y.o. is the same hard to attract them to surround formats.
most at that age has already established tastes and habits and usually not much tolerant to any changes.
for all years i've been here, i seen sporadic pop-up new members, who excited about discovery of surround format but none of them belong to demographic 50+
if we have new member of such age, usually he or she already familiar with surround format back in 70s and just recently discovered QQ community.
what i try to bring to your attention - attempt to draw interest of potential new consumers to surround camp through obsolete, mostly forgotten acts is fruitless.
as i mentioned in another topic, if surround has any future, it lays with new artists and their fanbase. that's not necessarily must be mega star but rather many
different acts in different genres. and more the better for cause.