DVD-A - Killed by the code crackers?

[JonUrban]

There was an interesting post over at SHF that referenced a Neil Young interview in which Neil says that DVD-A was ramped up and ready to go kick butt, then someone cracked the code and the record companies bailed.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=1988216&postcount=15

I wonder how much truth there is behind this view. Could these hackers really have brought down the format? As NY says in the interview, who cares? Someone is always going to crack something. CDs are "cracked".

If it is true, it's pretty sad....if you ask me.

 

[Quadwreck]

Seems to me the how-to would have spread wildfire on the internet if it had happened that way.

 

[Martin]

No need to worry. He must either be referring to (a) the existing and well publicised DeCSS hack for DVD-V (remember Neil put out some albums in hirez LPCM onto the DVD-V format); or (b) the equally well publicised WinDVD hack -- which was simply an internal bypass in that application. Or a confused mixture of (a) and (b) of course!

But let's face it, Neil is an artist from 'ye olde' school. He's not a qualified audio engineer nor is he an expert in encryption technology. So I think here he's just a bit confused. And he's not alone.

In short, I really don't think DVD-A's 56bit CPPM codes have been broken. And if one was, it would be revoked from the MKB of all future discs and playback hardware handshake verification.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

I think all he was saying is that copy protected DVD-A can be copied and I recall reading that as well. If that isn't true, then I have the same misunderstanding he has. How it was done, internal bypass or actually breaking a code probably isn't very important from his point of view. I just tried to copy the "Harvest" DVD-A and got a message it was copy protected. The "Greatest Hits" 96kHz/24-bit LPCM DVD-V resulted in the same using Nero. I would assume all of his high resolution DVD-A and DVD-V use copy protection and that is likely the way he wants it.

Listening to him sing in the 60's, I would have bet my last dollar he wouldn't still be a successful singer/songwriter 40 years later. He may not be a recording engineer or expert in encryption technology and may be confused about some things but how to present his music sure isn't one of them. I told my daughter a few years ago, Britney Spears would not have a long singing career, I think I got that one right. It is a fine line between a non-traditional singing voice working and not working with pop music over the long run and Neil Young and Bob Dylan sure changed popular music and the notion of what works and can't work with their singing. I am sure their songwriting was most important as neither could have recorded Cole Porter and Hoagy Carmichael standards and had a career.

If the record companies reduced or ended DVD-A releases because of copying or if sales were less because of copying, that wouldn't explain why the same thing happening to SACD.

Chris

 

[Cai Campbell]

I don't think encryption or related hacks had anything at all to do with the success and/or failure of DVD-A in terms of record company acceptance of the format.

 

[daved64]

I haven't seen/heard any cracks for DVD-A. I think Neil is on crack.

 

[BananaSlug]

AFAIK you can copy a DVD-A, but due to the watermark you can't play the resulting copy. Though I believe that maybe some people have been able to play the copied files on their computers. Without a very high end sound card I doubt this would sound as good as 'normal' playback on a DVD-A player in your main system. It's unbelievable how far and how much effort a few people will go to to save $15! I really doubt that there is any widespread piracy of DVD-A.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:

DVD-Audio's copy protection was overcome in 2005[7] by tools which allow data to be decrypted or converted to 6 channel .WAV files without going through lossy digital-to-analogue conversion. Previously that conversion had required expensive equipment to retain all 6 channels of audio rather than having it downmixed to stereo. In the digital method, the decryption is done by a commercial software player which has been patched to allow access to the unprotected audio. The method is still in early stages, for example having problems with watermarked disks. As the DVD-A format has not gained wide commercial interest or acceptance, decryption tools are still very primitive.

Such tools are most likely illegal in the United States under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and the Recording Industry Association of America has been successful in keeping them off websites. Like much software of dubious legality, they are still distributed from person to person and on the peer to peer networks[8].

Chris

 

[winopener]

The piracy argument is simply worth nothing: regarding dvd-video there are "backup" plans floating everywhere by years and this didn't killed the dvd-video market at all!!! It became the biggest commercial hit of the last 30 years.
SACD isn't pirated at all, but despite that is floating in the same bad waters as dvd-a.
So, what's wrong?

 

[elmer]

DVD Audio is not dead - it just smells funny

 

[Ge Someone]

It may be used as an argument but it's not true.
Yes, there has been a hack for certain versions of WinDVD that allow the save the (hi-rez) wav's to disk.
But, that something like this might happen was forseen. The key block of newer DVD-A can be changed so they cannot be decoded with those older versions of WinDVD (and therefor the wav's cannot be saved to disc anymore). So there were not less DVD-A sold before this was known and from the newer one's (with updated keyblocks) the hi-rez cannot be copied. In fact that would prove that the security measures work as designed.

Note: the encryption is not broken.

Also you could not burn the copied hi-rez wav to DVD-A and play them in a DVD-A player (as BananaSlug says) because the watermark will be detected within 30 seconds and playback will stop.

The real reason is, hi-rez music is not generating the high profits the market had hoped for.

So they crunch out CD's, with no (working) copy protection at all. @:

 

[JonUrban]

I once tried to make a compilation 5.1 DVD-A to play in my Acura using tracks that I recorded real time from various DVD-A's onto my PC in the analog manner. I then took the resulting 6 mono files (which played fine and looked fine in Sound Forge) and "remade" them into a single compilation DVD-A using Wavelab 5. I took the disc into the car, hit the road, and every track sounded great for about 30 seconds, then I got nothing but silence. (Doing the same thing with SACDs works fine)

This is a very good CP scheme. I do not know why they don't use it on CDs.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

We have had a number of threads here discussing the various possible causes of the demise of DVD-A and SACD. I don't have enough information to conclude anything other than lack of consumer interest and that disinterest persisted even when the consumer had knowledge of the formats. It couldn't be overcome. Whether or not some record company executives concluded DVD-A wasn't secure enough is unknown. Arguing that would make no sense isn't relevant, all that is relevant is did some believe it was a valid concern. I doubt if the impact was much if anything on the problem. All I know for certain is I am glad we got the releases we got and Neil should continue to release his music as 96kHz/24-bit LPCM stereo if he isn't a surround fan.

Chris

 

[ssully]

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:

DVD-Audio's copy protection was overcome in 2005[7] by tools which allow data to be decrypted or converted to 6 channel .WAV files without going through lossy digital-to-analogue conversion. Previously that conversion had required expensive equipment to retain all 6 channels of audio rather than having it downmixed to stereo. In the digital method, the decryption is done by a commercial software player which has been patched to allow access to the unprotected audio. The method is still in early stages, for example having problems with watermarked disks. As the DVD-A format has not gained wide commercial interest or acceptance, decryption tools are still very primitive.

Such tools are most likely illegal in the United States under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and the Recording Industry Association of America has been successful in keeping them off websites. Like much software of dubious legality, they are still distributed from person to person and on the peer to peer networks[8].

Chris

I first saw the news on this thread:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34368

specifically, post #40, back in July 2005.

 

[Guy Robinson]

I have experimented with DVD-A discs that I have and the ones that are watermarked copy with no problem as ISO's. SL or DL, whatever is required. They however will not play back. They play the tracks and you can see the timer going etc but there is no video or audio output. DVD-A's that aren't watermarked will copy with no problem and play back. I have been able to make back-up copies of DVD-A's that I have that don't have the copy protection. Big Label - Watermark, Small Label - No Watermark (generally). It's nice to have a backup in case something happens to the original.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

The DualDiscs might be the ones you want to copy. Who knows if the manufacturing process for these two sided discs will result in longevity. I sure recall the two sided LaserDisc rot problem resulting from the glue used and other manufacturing problems. I have a bunch of DualDiscs and don't think there will be a problem but I would sure hate to be wrong. With LaserDisc rot, it doesn't matter now because the quality was poor compared to DVD so I wouldn't be playing them anyway. DVD-A can be so good that I don't expect obsolesence due to something newer and better.

Chris

 

[Guy Robinson]

The DualDiscs might be the ones you want to copy. Who knows if the manufacturing process for these two sided discs will result in longevity. I sure recall the two sided LaserDisc rot problem resulting from the glue used and other manufacturing problems. I have a bunch of DualDiscs and don't think there will be a problem but I would sure hate to be wrong. With LaserDisc rot, it doesn't matter now because the quality was poor compared to DVD so I wouldn't be playing them anyway. DVD-A can be so good that I don't expect obsolesence due to something newer and better.

Chris

Good point Chris. I already backed up the Talking Heads brick. I was actually able to fit all 8 discs on 1 DVD with just the Dolby. No menus etc. So this was a cheap and fast way to do this. I actually play that disc periodically just so I don't have to swap the other discs in and out of the player. I have also backed up all the other DualDiscs that I have just because I don't trust them. Only got the Dolby/DTS though so if something happens to any of the originals I will still be missing the DVD-A stream.

 

[jimby]

I think what Neil is referring to is the fact that DVD-A was schedule to launch in late 1999 with CSS2 copy-protection. However in the fall of 1999, the original CSS copy-protection for DVD was cracked. The record companies pulled out of the scheduled launch and asked the DVD Forum to replace the now-in-danger-of-being-cracked CSS2 copy-protection system which was technically similar to the original CSS.

Ultimately after much scrambling, the 4C copy-protection scheme (CPPM) was adopted for DVD-Audio.

However the DVD-A format was delayed for nearly a year because of the change. At the time some consumer electronic companies had plans to ship almost all of their DVD players as combo DVD/DVD-A players. The delay caused the CE companies to drop DVD-A for awhile as they shipped more and more DVD-only players. DVD-only players became the dominant market format. Later, this lack of market dominance for DVD-A would prove costly as it encouraged Sony Electronics and Philips to bring to market their competing SACD format, thus sealing both formats' fates. One could certainly argue that this year delay probably fatally compromised the success of the DVD-A format.

It is interesting to note that original DVD-A players were in the process of being shipped to stores when CSS was cracked. Those players (probably not very many) were recalled and never released.

Any current cracks to CPPM have come far too late in the history of DVD-A for any record companies to care about. The format whithered for a number of reasons, but none of them due to hacks or cracks.

 

[JonUrban]

I think what Neil is referring to is the fact that DVD-A was schedule to launch in late 1999 with CSS2 copy-protection. However in the fall of 1999, the original CSS copy-protection for DVD was cracked. The record companies pulled out of the scheduled launch and asked the DVD Forum to replace the now-in-danger-of-being-cracked CSS2 copy-protection system which was technically similar to the original CSS.

Ultimately after much scrambling, the 4C copy-protection scheme (CPPM) was adopted for DVD-Audio.

However the DVD-A format was delayed for nearly a year because of the change. At the time some consumer electronic companies had plans to ship almost all of their DVD players as combo DVD/DVD-A players. The delay caused the CE companies to drop DVD-A for awhile as they shipped more and more DVD-only players. DVD-only players became the dominant market format. Later, this lack of market dominance for DVD-A would prove costly as it encouraged Sony Electronics and Philips to bring to market their competing SACD format, thus sealing both formats' fates. One could certainly argue that this year delay probably fatally compromised the success of the DVD-A format.

It is interesting to note that original DVD-A players were in the process of being shipped to stores when CSS was cracked. Those players (probably not very many) were recalled and never released.

Any current cracks to CPPM have come far too late in the history of DVD-A for any record companies to care about. The format whithered for a number of reasons, but none of them due to hacks or cracks.

Now THAT makes sense! I never knew about this early "cracking" and derailment. What a pisser.................

Thanks so much for the explaination.

 

[Martin]

>> Thanks so much for the explaination. <<

JonUrban, aren't you going to thank me also? As that's basically what I said earlier (re. CSS) in this thread? ;-)