Issue in Upmix from Stereo to 5.1 using SpecWeb 2.2

[nivedhya]

This post is exclusively for SpecWeb Moderator Zeerround.

First let me say I'm a very happy user of SpecWeb 2.2 & donated too to express my happiness. Thanks for giving such a beautiful software.

Please check the attached file. This I tried to convert to 5.1 using SpecWeb 2.2.(Original file what I have is wave but since this forum didn't accept wave format I have converted to flac format & attached).After conversion I get all output only from Center Channel. Hence I tried changing gains of lf,rf,ls,rs to max in SpecWeb still same problem.

I have similar files which I want to convert to 5.1.Kindly check & let me know how I can go ahead & get my conversion of this & such similar songs like other songs I convert & enjoy in 5.1 set up.

I do not understand what is the real problem with this song. I suspected recording of this song is in one channel (both vocal & music) & tried to convert it as mono then back to stereo & tried with SpecWeb again to 5.1.Nothing works out. Almost fed up.

At least I will be happy if I know what is the real issue with this song, whether I can convert such to 5.1 or not & if not possible What type of songs I should select for 5.1 conversion when using SpecWeb 2.2, I mean wave song input quality parameters for SpecWeb 2.2 to work correctly for 5.1 good output.

 

[zeerround]

Your file is mono. It has the same information in both left and right channels, so SpecWeb happily puts it all in C, where it belongs.

One way to tell is listen with headphones. Everything will be in the center/top of your head. Vs. a stereo track where things will be spread out between your ears.

Not sure what else to tell you. There are various techniques to create a stereo mix from mono, but a stereo input is a required for SpecWeb to work.

I'm glad you are happy with SpecWeb in general, however.

 

[nivedhya]

Your file is mono. It has the same information in both left and right channels, so SpecWeb happily puts it all in C, where it belongs.

One way to tell is listen with headphones. Everything will be in the center/top of your head. Vs. a stereo track where things will be spread out between your ears.

Not sure what else to tell you. There are various techniques to create a stereo mix from mono, but a stereo input is a required for SpecWeb to work.

I'm glad you are happy with SpecWeb in general, however.

Thank You very much.

You have mentioned various techniques to convert this mono to stereo.

But is it possible to convert this mono to stereo to an acceptable input format for SpecWeb for further 5.1 conversion.If so which technique is best?

 

[zeerround]

I checked in with a friend that does a lot of re-mixing, including mono to stereo and mono to 5.1, and he suggested a music source separation tool. e.g. SpleeterGUI | Maken It So then you could remix those "stems" via stereo mixer such as audacity, etc.

The music source separation programs are trained on Western Music, however. The tools themselves can be trained for any type of separation but it takes 100's of hours of multitrack and stereo mix training material (and a lot of computer/GPU power to do the training). But perhaps the existing "stem" categories of Vocals, drums, bass, and other will still apply?

Other pseudo stereo plugins work with comb filters and delays, and may make "interesting" mono to stereo in the short term, but create a kind of "phase pressure" that is uncomfortable to listen to long term, and won't make for a good 5.1 upmix with SpecWeb.

 

[nivedhya]

I checked in with a friend that does a lot of re-mixing, including mono to stereo and mono to 5.1, and he suggested a music source separation tool. e.g. SpleeterGUI | Maken It So then you could remix those "stems" via stereo mixer such as audacity, etc.

The music source separation programs are trained on Western Music, however. The tools themselves can be trained for any type of separation but it takes 100's of hours of multitrack and stereo mix training material (and a lot of computer/GPU power to do the training). But perhaps the existing "stem" categories of Vocals, drums, bass, and other will still apply?

Other pseudo stereo plugins work with comb filters and delays, and may make "interesting" mono to stereo in the short term, but create a kind of "phase pressure" that is uncomfortable to listen to long term, and won't make for a good 5.1 upmix with SpecWeb.

Thank You very much. I too researched in the mean time but feels not worth putting so much effort.

And Mono to Stereo with some Stereo Plug in gives some better Quality than Pseudo Stereo of Mono file. Still as you said it is not so good for real Music lovers & we could feel the difference at some point & losing the charm & enjoyment.

OK.Thank You. But I have some other questions regarding SpecWeb 2.2

While converting some files if RMS of Fronts & Surrounds are around -20 to -25 & Center somewhere around -12 to -15 those conversions sounds great with few right sounds getting rightly shifted to surrounds & playback nicely.

Whereas few files while conversion Fronts RMS hovers around -20 to -25 whereas surrounds RMS -30 to -35 & some cases -40 to -45. Center almost more or less same as above going max to -19 or so. These are not effective surround conversions especially surrounds awfully not so good.

I understand these are original wave file quality drawbacks. This I could feel after conversion with SpecWeb & played lot of files & found out. That is Why I keep on asking is there any specified wave Input Quality to ensure best output because this trial & error is eating my time out.

Above are at least OK they are real stereo files only output getting compromised based on input Quality.

Much worse is SpecWeb takes in fake or pseudo Stereo of Mono files too like my earlier sample case & gives some output. Only after playing when it plays only in center we come come to know the input fed is Mono.

My request

1) For SpecWeb - Can you tell input wave file characteristics or give some some control in your software to check input suitability for right Quality conversion & output.
2) For above RMS variations can I do something in the .ini file and get right output. I tried to play around in SpecWeb Play but before I set parameters song getting completed & setting gets changed while replay & again I have to set & start trial from beginning.
3) This I hope definitely you can do. Stopping Spec Web accepting Mono files converted as Stereo or fake or Pseudo Stereo or Mono remastered with Plug ins to stereo whatever may be.

Sorry it seems I'm troubling you too much. Well since I'm using SpecWeb continuously I have just let you know all my little pains. Also some wave files I pay & get & ultimately I come to know they are useless only after

 

[zeerround]

Well your ears (with headphones) would be the fastest way to detect mono and tracks without a good stereo spread. As I said before mono will appear to be only at the top of your head, and full stereo spread across your head from ear to ear.

However here is one way to detect pure mono (duplicated channels) in a stereo format file.

Get sox from here: SoX - Sound eXchange - Browse /sox/14.4.2 at SourceForge.net Or, if you have AudioMuxer a copy of sox will be in %appdata%AudioMuxer\SoX

Then, in a cmd window:

Downloads>"sox-14.4.2-win32\sox-14.4.2\sox.exe" "Chevvanthi Poo_Stereo (1).flac" tmp.wav remix 1,2i stats​

DC offset 0.000000​

Min level 0.000000​

Max level 0.000000​

Pk lev dB -1.#J​

RMS lev dB -1.#J​

RMS Pk dB -1.#J​

RMS Tr dB -1.#J​

Crest factor 1.00​

Flat factor 141.65​

Pk count 24.2M​

Bit-depth 0/0​

Num samples 12.1M​

Length s 274.267​

Scale max 1.000000​

Window s 0.050​

All the zeros and -1.#Js (I put in bold) mean the two channels are identical (mono). What we are doing is inverting the 2nd channel and mixing it with the first. A stereo track would look like this:

Downloads> "sox-14.4.2-win32\sox-14.4.2\sox.exe" "Love Alive.flac" tmp.wav remix 1,2i stats​

DC offset 0.000002​

Min level -1.000000​

Max level 0.973724​

Pk lev dB 0.00​

RMS lev dB -18.34​

RMS Pk dB -10.61​

RMS Tr dB -53.88​

Crest factor 8.26​

Flat factor 4.44​

Pk count 6​

Bit-depth 16/16​

Num samples 11.4M​

Length s 258.813​

Scale max 1.000000​

Window s 0.050​

I'd have to see some examples of songs that don't upmix well, but assuming they just have a poor stereo spread you could possibly use the above to compare the levels of a "good" stereo track like the above to one that poorly converts. Looking at the RMS lev dB of -18.34 for a "good" track, one with not much stereo difference would have a more negative (quieter) value.

I'll consider your suggestions for the feature list, but I don't want to slow SpecWeb down checking for mono files every time. It would have to be an optional flag.

 

[nivedhya]

Thank You for your feedback. You have given me a way out for pushing out/filtering out fake stereo.

And as far as Good & Bad Stereo Files & resulting conversion I have attached sample files. 01 File is good one & if you feed to SpecWeb as it is output is damn good. If you observe surround files especially you could see music placement & its output really good.

The other one 02 File in my first as it is conversion SpecWeb I got output only in center channel. Suspected as mono but it is not so. So second time I fed it to SpecWeb Play, tweaked with LS & RS pregains, got my 5 channel output, but not so happy. My third try along with pregains tweaked with surround blend also, not so good. Fourth try instead of Arctan alone with Arctan+Slice and tweaking Slice 1 st stage to 0.45 got some results. Still playing around to get to my taste but not sure my ways are right or wrong. Also at one point in last output I noticed some echo in LF & RF.

My opinion even not so good stereo also we are able to convert to 5.1 but surround effect bit placement is lacking for that I do something manually in some other software knowing well that's not a right way still trying if possible to get to my surround taste.

My taste in the sense at least to 01 file quality output.

Note: Both files are from same Album/Movie but recorded or available only like this. I mean best available stereo quality as of now of those files.

You can try & give your feed back so that can I do something to get output like 01 File of 02 File from SpecWeb.

Also is there any way/software to make stereo files like 02 bad Quality to right Quality.

Thank You once again

 

[nivedhya]

I checked in with a friend that does a lot of re-mixing, including mono to stereo and mono to 5.1, and he suggested a music source separation tool. e.g. SpleeterGUI | Maken It So then you could remix those "stems" via stereo mixer such as audacity, etc.

The music source separation programs are trained on Western Music, however. The tools themselves can be trained for any type of separation but it takes 100's of hours of multitrack and stereo mix training material (and a lot of computer/GPU power to do the training). But perhaps the existing "stem" categories of Vocals, drums, bass, and other will still apply?

Other pseudo stereo plugins work with comb filters and delays, and may make "interesting" mono to stereo in the short term, but create a kind of "phase pressure" that is uncomfortable to listen to long term, and won't make for a good 5.1 upmix with SpecWeb.

SpeeleterGUI is not installing on my Laptop.My Processor is AMD Ryzen 3 2200U with Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx 2.50 GHz. Once I hit Install it is simply blank for hours together without installing

 

[nivedhya]

Well your ears (with headphones) would be the fastest way to detect mono and tracks without a good stereo spread. As I said before mono will appear to be only at the top of your head, and full stereo spread across your head from ear to ear.

However here is one way to detect pure mono (duplicated channels) in a stereo format file.

Get sox from here: SoX - Sound eXchange - Browse /sox/14.4.2 at SourceForge.net Or, if you have AudioMuxer a copy of sox will be in %appdata%AudioMuxer\SoX

Then, in a cmd window:

Downloads>"sox-14.4.2-win32\sox-14.4.2\sox.exe" "Chevvanthi Poo_Stereo (1).flac" tmp.wav remix 1,2i stats​

DC offset 0.000000​

Min level 0.000000​

Max level 0.000000​

Pk lev dB -1.#J​

RMS lev dB -1.#J​

RMS Pk dB -1.#J​

RMS Tr dB -1.#J​

Crest factor 1.00​

Flat factor 141.65​

Pk count 24.2M​

Bit-depth 0/0​

Num samples 12.1M​

Length s 274.267​

Scale max 1.000000​

Window s 0.050​

All the zeros and -1.#Js (I put in bold) mean the two channels are identical (mono). What we are doing is inverting the 2nd channel and mixing it with the first. A stereo track would look like this:

Downloads> "sox-14.4.2-win32\sox-14.4.2\sox.exe" "Love Alive.flac" tmp.wav remix 1,2i stats​

DC offset 0.000002​

Min level -1.000000​

Max level 0.973724​

Pk lev dB 0.00​

RMS lev dB -18.34​

RMS Pk dB -10.61​

RMS Tr dB -53.88​

Crest factor 8.26​

Flat factor 4.44​

Pk count 6​

Bit-depth 16/16​

Num samples 11.4M​

Length s 258.813​

Scale max 1.000000​

Window s 0.050​

I'd have to see some examples of songs that don't upmix well, but assuming they just have a poor stereo spread you could possibly use the above to compare the levels of a "good" stereo track like the above to one that poorly converts. Looking at the RMS lev dB of -18.34 for a "good" track, one with not much stereo difference would have a more negative (quieter) value.

I'll consider your suggestions for the feature list, but I don't want to slow SpecWeb down checking for mono files every time. It would have to be an optional flag.

And this SOX already I have installed as exe file. But while trying to run command prompt window opens flashes and vanishes. I'm unable to type any command & execute. Can you give some solution. I tried but not working.This problem is almost for all exe files & my Operating system Windows 10

 

[zeerround]

Thank You for your feedback. You have given me a way out for pushing out/filtering out fake stereo.

And as far as Good & Bad Stereo Files & resulting conversion I have attached sample files. 01 File is good one & if you feed to SpecWeb as it is output is damn good. If you observe surround files especially you could see music placement & its output really good.

The other one 02 File in my first as it is conversion SpecWeb I got output only in center channel. Suspected as mono but it is not so. So second time I fed it to SpecWeb Play, tweaked with LS & RS pregains, got my 5 channel output, but not so happy. My third try along with pregains tweaked with surround blend also, not so good. Fourth try instead of Arctan alone with Arctan+Slice and tweaking Slice 1 st stage to 0.45 got some results. Still playing around to get to my taste but not sure my ways are right or wrong. Also at one point in last output I noticed some echo in LF & RF.

My opinion even not so good stereo also we are able to convert to 5.1 but surround effect bit placement is lacking for that I do something manually in some other software knowing well that's not a right way still trying if possible to get to my surround taste.

My taste in the sense at least to 01 file quality output.

Note: Both files are from same Album/Movie but recorded or available only like this. I mean best available stereo quality as of now of those files.

You can try & give your feed back so that can I do something to get output like 01 File of 02 File from SpecWeb.

Also is there any way/software to make stereo files like 02 bad Quality to right Quality.

Thank You once again

For #2, you could try:

-i360 -c5 -f10​

In which you are telling SpecWeb, make the surround image as wide as possible, make the center channel only 5 degrees wide, and the front channels only 10 degrees wide, and all the rest goes in the rears.

That will give you good levels in all channels. However the sound field of this recording is not very stable, so the vocal is going to wonder around a bit.

Generally you should adjust the widths in "play" mode. Listen to just the center channel and reduce the width until it starts to sound "thin" or strange, the repeat with listening to the fronts and adjusting the front width.

 

[zeerround]

And this SOX already I have installed as exe file. But while trying to run command prompt window opens flashes and vanishes. I'm unable to type any command & execute. Can you give some solution. I tried but not working.This problem is almost for all exe files & my Operating system Windows 10

I don't know what's wrong with your windows install. The problem seems to go beyond just sox and spleeter.

 

[nivedhya]

For #2, you could try:

-i360 -c5 -f10​

In which you are telling SpecWeb, make the surround image as wide as possible, make the center channel only 5 degrees wide, and the front channels only 10 degrees wide, and all the rest goes in the rears.

That will give you good levels in all channels. However the sound field of this recording is not very stable, so the vocal is going to wonder around a bit.

Generally you should adjust the widths in "play" mode. Listen to just the center channel and reduce the width until it starts to sound "thin" or strange, the repeat with listening to the fronts and adjusting the front width.

Thank You. This setting really gave a nice output in the very first trial itself, without need for any listening trials or adjustment.

I think/presume by above you are changing stereo width. Am I right?

And this means, for songs like this I mean not a perfect stereo, you say we have to play only with width and not with anything else like pregain or slice etc.,I ask this because many songs we don't know the stereo Quality when we get.

And is there any set procedure in width setting or we have to make trial & error by hearing with SpecWeb Play only?

Anyhow Thank You very much & also for SpecWeb such a great & simple software.

 

[zeerround]

Yes, adjusting the widths is the best solution for these types of inputs. Listening is always the best approach for any settings.

Re automation I have tried automatic width setting in the past. To really do it properly requires and extra pass over the input. I may revisit as an optional feature but no promises.

I'm glad you are enjoying SpecWeb.

 

[nivedhya]

Thank You.

 

[nivedhya]

While doing Conversion through SpecWeb Play I want to hear live in my home 5.1 Audio. I'm connecting my Laptop through HDMI to my system/TV. While starting conversion output from my Laptop goes to system, starts playing but immediately stops and also SpecWeb Play hangs.

If I play through VLC app in similar fashion it plays through my home 5.1 Audio system.

SpecWeb play settings show home Audio as my first output correctly.

Can I get some clue what goes wrond where? OS Windows 10.

 

[zeerround]

Let's make sure it's configured for either 5.1 or 7.1:

And the test "chimes" are playing.

And spatial audio is off:

Then, please post a screen shot of the supported formats, like this:

FYI I've tested here with Nvidia and Intel GPUs (HDMI OUT) and using 44.1KHz stereo input files, and with default SpecWeb settings.

If you try to "play" super hi-rez input, and/or a lot of upsample, bigger FFT, etc., you can end up needed a pretty fast computer to keep up.

In most cases you should be fine with 44.1 or 48KHz inputs and defaults.

 

[nivedhya]

Let's make sure it's configured for either 5.1 or 7.1:
View attachment 69070
And the test "chimes" are playing.

And spatial audio is off:
View attachment 69071

Then, please post a screen shot of the supported formats, like this:
View attachment 69072

FYI I've tested here with Nvidia and Intel GPUs (HDMI OUT) and using 44.1KHz stereo input files, and with default SpecWeb settings.

If you try to "play" super hi-rez input, and/or a lot of upsample, bigger FFT, etc., you can end up needed a pretty fast computer to keep up.

In most cases you should be fine with 44.1 or 48KHz inputs and defaults.

Please find attached my system Screen shot below attached as PDF since word file not accepted

 

[zeerround]

Looks OK. Do the chimes, on the configuration menu, play OK?

Any other apps (besides VLC) that are playing multi-channel audio OK (Not dolby or DTS, but actual 6 channel discrete)?

 

[nivedhya]

It's OK playing now.Thank You