HiRez Poll Lennon, John - GIMME SOME TRUTH (The Ultimate Remixes) [Blu-Ray Audio]

[kokishin]

I gave it an 8 and I'm certainly glad I bought it. (For comparison, I gave Abbey Road 50th Anniversary Atmos mix a 10).

This is essentially a John Lennon greatest hits album (post Beatles) remixed/remastered for surround sound in the 21st century. Really like it. The mix is somewhat conservative and respectful to Lennon's originals. But the tracks sound really nice and moderately immersive.

I have an Atmos 5.1.4 setup with the x.x.4 being Dolby Atmos enabled upfiring speakers. I am not getting any sound from my front Atmos upfiring speakers. I am getting sound from my rear upfiring speakers. I've verified my system is working properly with other Atmos content. as well as Atmos test tones.

I've only listened to the Atmos mix. (On a few tracks, I switched from Atmos to the DTS-HD MA 5.1 mix and back on the fly. To me, the Atmos mix sounds slightly more immersive and spacious). The Atmos mix is very clean with the sound stage towards the front. The use of side surrounds and rear upfiring speakers is constant/pleasant but no whiz bang effects. Perhaps if I were the mixing engineer, I would have tried a more "spacey" in the clouds Atmos effect with #9 Dream (one of my all time favorite tunes). However, I'm not complaining about it.

I'm a big Lennon fan. In fact, I listened to Sean Lennon's special on BBC Radio 2 this weekend "John Lennon at 80". So I'm glad I added John Lennon's Gimme Some Truth. The Ultimate Mixes (Deluxe Box Set) to my library just in time for John's (and my Dad's) birthday on October 9th.

I just changed my vote from an 8 to a 9.

The reason for the change is that I finally was able to get Atmos content from my four upfiring Dolby Atmos enabled speakers by modifying my system. Prior to the change to my system, I was only getting Atmos content from my upfiring SD speakers; no content from my upfiring FD speakers.

The change to my system required adding a mixer and creating a faux 7.1.4 setup with FD+BD upfiring speakers. Details here:
SPOTLIGHT - New John Lennon collection, remixed in 5.1 surround & Dolby Atmos out in October!

 

[jimfisheye]

I've seen too many cases of timid front heavy mixes. They are what they are. Turn up the rears and now it's that same mix but with the rears awkwardly up - it sounds wrong in that way is what I mean. First listen to the lossless rip and it really sounded like one of those. Some decent fidelity in general I suppose as far as that goes.

Yeah, that's enough.

Holy hell they really butchered this release! You don't accidentally hit music with 6db of limiting. But what you DO accidentally do is inadvertently miss applying your hatchet job to the lossy dd copy and it escapes unmolested! If there's a bit of a veil over the dd copy it pales next to the damage in the lossless copy. It looks like the L R C & Lfe channels were limited and boosted 6db. Enough to make noticeable distortion. (Anything past 4db IMHO) Probable done as 2 stereo pairs because the Lfe is riding along with that boost. So we're left with the rears 6db low and distortion. The presence and depth are just gone no matter what you do trying to message the levels. The dd copy is a cleaner copy of the 5.1 master here. For whatever decoding or other reason the dd copy is overall 1db lower than the corrected (rear channels as is) lossless copy. A/B it with all that normalized and you find a really nice and properly balanced discrete surround mix in the dd copy vs that mix run through a meat grinder in the lossless copy.

This is embarrassing from a couple different angles.

The lossless 7.1 program is about 1.5db less boosted than the 5.1 but messed up in the same way overall. The L/R rears are also boosted here but not as much as the 1st 4 channels. The sides (5/6) appear not boosted.

The lossless stereo mix is full on volume war hash.

Ripping the bluray disc with MakeMKV, I am not able to see the Atmos copy. 2.0, 5.1, & 7.1 I don't think ffmpeg would have the codec even if I could rip it though. This may still be restricted to secret codecs in select hardware decoders at present.

Getting well done 5.1 mixes like this even in dolby dd is still hits high marks! You don't hear this every day and it deserves celebration. Jaw dropping for all the above though. I wonder what shape the Atmos mix is in?

Edit: OK, there isn't supposed to be an intentional 7.1 mix. This is the Dolby TrueHD core of the Atmos mix and it's the only part MakeMKV can see per the design of the system and MakeMKV not being updated with the Atmos codec. (Possibly with the height and object mix elements folded in. They're supposed to be in this scenario but not everything is up to speed with all this yet.) As mentioned, this 7.1 mix is clearly destroyed just like the dts 5.1 and lpcm stereo. Atmos listeners are screwed with this release.

 

[Strilo]

So... you think this release is butchered and embarassing?

 

[JonUrban]

I've seen too many cases of timid front heavy mixes. They are what they are. Turn up the rears and now it's that same mix but with the rears awkwardly up - it sounds wrong in that way is what I mean. First listen to the lossless rip and it really sounded like one of those. Some decent fidelity in general I suppose as far as that goes.

Yeah, that's enough.

Holy hell they really butchered this release! You don't accidentally hit music with 6db of limiting. But what you DO accidentally do is inadvertently miss applying your hatchet job to the lossy dd copy and it escapes unmolested! If there's a bit of a veil over the dd copy it pales next to the damage in the lossless copy. It looks like the L R C & Lfe channels were limited and boosted 6db. Enough to make noticeable distortion. (Anything past 4db IMHO) Probable done as 2 stereo pairs because the Lfe is riding along with that boost. So we're left with the rears 6db low and distortion. The presence and depth are just gone no matter what you do trying to message the levels. The dd copy is a cleaner copy of the 5.1 master here. For whatever decoding or other reason the dd copy is overall 1db lower than the corrected (rear channels as is) lossless copy. A/B it with all that normalized and you find a really nice and properly balanced discrete surround mix in the dd copy vs that mix run through a meat grinder in the lossless copy.

This is embarrassing from a couple different angles.

The lossless 7.1 program is about 1.5db less boosted than the 5.1 but messed up in the same way overall. The L/R rears are also boosted here but not as much as the 1st 4 channels. The sides (5/6) appear not boosted.

The lossless stereo mix is full on volume war hash.

Ripping the bluray disc with MakeMKV, I am not able to see the Atmos copy. 2.0, 5.1, & 7.1 I don't think ffmpeg would have the codec even if I could rip it though. This may still be restricted to secret codecs in select hardware decoders at present.

Getting well done 5.1 mixes like this even in dolby dd is still hits high marks! You don't hear this every day and it deserves celebration. Jaw dropping for all the above though. I wonder what shape the Atmos mix is in?

Edit: OK, there isn't supposed to be an intentional 7.1 mix. This is the Dolby TrueHD core of the Atmos mix and it's the only part MakeMKV can see per the design of the system and MakeMKV not being updated with the Atmos codec. (Possibly with the height and object mix elements folded in. They're supposed to be in this scenario but not everything is up to speed with all this yet.) As mentioned, this 7.1 mix is clearly destroyed just like the dts 5.1 and lpcm stereo. Atmos listeners are screwed with this release.

Well stated Jim.

Like I stated earlier, play the Dolby Digital 5.1 and you will hear it properly. I for one am glad they forgot to crank the LOUDNESS BUTTON on that version. It escaped!

 

[kokishin]

Here is the MediaInfo from the mkv of just the Dolby Atmos mix:
Audio #4
ID : 5
ID in the original source medium : 4354 (0x1102)
Format : MLP FBA 16-ch
Format/Info : Meridian Lossless Packing FBA with 16-channel presentation
Commercial name : Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Atmos
Codec ID : A_TRUEHD
Duration : 2 h 17 min
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 5 475 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 450 kb/s
Channel(s) : 8 channels
Channel layout : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 1 200.000 FPS (40 SPF)
Bit depth : 24 bits
Compression mode : Lossless
Stream size : 5.27 GiB (23%)
Title : Surround 7.1
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : No
Original source medium : Blu-ray
Number of dynamic objects : 15
Bed channel count : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration : LFE

 

[tboomer]

I voted 8 and listen with an Atmos 5.1.2 front upfiring config.

I AM wondering what happened to the horns in "Steel and Glass"... is that intentional, or were some tracks lost? Kind of suspicious... I always enjoy horns in surround mixes.. they often appear in the rears and jump things up it seems to me. (Note that the horns are missing in the stereo mix as well.)

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I voted 8 and listen with an Atmos 5.1.2 front upfiring config.

I AM wondering what happened to the horns in "Steel and Glass"... is that intentional, or were some tracks lost? Kind of suspicious... I always enjoy horns in surround mixes.. they often appear in the rears and jump things up it seems to me. (Note that the horns are missing in the stereo mix as well.)

Wow. I can't Imagine the song without the horns.

 

[jimfisheye]

Here is the MediaInfo from the mkv of just the Dolby Atmos mix:
Audio #4
ID : 5
ID in the original source medium : 4354 (0x1102)
Format : MLP FBA 16-ch
Format/Info : Meridian Lossless Packing FBA with 16-channel presentation
Commercial name : Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Atmos
Codec ID : A_TRUEHD
Duration : 2 h 17 min
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 5 475 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 450 kb/s
Channel(s) : 8 channels
Channel layout : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 1 200.000 FPS (40 SPF)
Bit depth : 24 bits
Compression mode : Lossless
Stream size : 5.27 GiB (23%)
Title : Surround 7.1
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : No
Original source medium : Blu-ray
Number of dynamic objects : 15
Bed channel count : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration : LFE

What app did you use to rip the mkv? And then what app to probe it?

 

[kokishin]

What app did you use to rip the mkv? And then what app to probe it?

MakeMKV - Make MKV from Blu-ray and DVD

MediaInfo

 

[kokishin]

Although there is a lossy DD 5.1 track on the BD, my Denon 6200 5.1.4 setup does not allow me to access it.

What I can access is the Atmos mix or the lossless Dolby TrueHD (DTHD) 7.1 track. Not interested in the DTS 5.1.

Some folks are saying the DD 5.1 sounds really good. I switched from playing the Atmos track to the DTHD 7.1. It also sounds really good. The side/back surrounds seem to get a boost versus the Atmos mix. The DTHD 7.1 also sounds more immersive which seems somewhat counterintuitive I suppose.

I need to spend more time comparing the Atmos against the DTHD 7.1 but based on spending about 20 minutes comparing the two, I think I'm starting to prefer the DTHD 7.1 over the Atmos mix.

 

[jimfisheye]

There's still fidelity in the butchered streams. High fidelity even and higher fidelity than other stuff in your collection. The streams are still in fact butchered. If you go through the trouble to rip the dd program and have the ability to play it back at matching volume, you will find it's night and day different and the boosted streams are in fact a very butchered copy of what is in the dd stream.

It would be quite possible to match the distortion and alter the dd copy to match the damaged copies. It is not possible to restore the damaged copies to even come close to the fidelity of the dd copy (lossy vs the actual LPCM studio master as it may be). They're too far gone.

There are degrees for everything.

The Atmos stream is in fact damaged from the mastering gone wrong too. There may be fidelity left and it may be exciting hearing all the little speakers sounding around the room. But it is in fact damaged and to the extent that this should be a recall situation for this release.

Oh boy, so the stand-alone DVD players don't let you select the "lesser" dd stream when the machine can read the more advanced stream? That's ugly! You would have to rip it and then author a new DVD for yourself with only the dd stream. PITA but it would absolutely be worth it! This is bad but we DO have a still great copy of a genuinely great 5.1 mix on this disc and that's not nothing!

 

[himey]

There's still fidelity in the butchered streams. High fidelity even and higher fidelity than other stuff in your collection. The streams are still in fact butchered. If you go through the trouble to rip the dd program and have the ability to play it back at matching volume, you will find it's night and day different and the boosted streams are in fact a very butchered copy of what is in the dd stream.

It would be quite possible to match the distortion and alter the dd copy to match the damaged copies. It is not possible to restore the damaged copies to even come close to the fidelity of the dd copy (lossy vs the actual LPCM studio master as it may be). They're too far gone.

There are degrees for everything.

The Atmos stream is in fact damaged from the mastering gone wrong too. There may be fidelity left and it may be exciting hearing all the little speakers sounding around the room. But it is in fact damaged and to the extent that this should be a recall situation for this release.

Oh boy, so the stand-alone DVD players don't let you select the "lesser" dd stream when the machine can read the more advanced stream? That's ugly! You would have to rip it and then author a new DVD for yourself with only the dd stream. PITA but it would absolutely be worth it! This is bad but we DO have a still great copy of a genuinely great 5.1 mix on this disc and that's not nothing!

Couldn't you just add a spdif cable from your player to the processor and choose that input?

This discussion at least proves that their is no core DD track in a 7.1 Atmos track. It is an additional track added...

 

[kokishin]

There's still fidelity in the butchered streams. High fidelity even and higher fidelity than other stuff in your collection. The streams are still in fact butchered. If you go through the trouble to rip the dd program and have the ability to play it back at matching volume, you will find it's night and day different and the boosted streams are in fact a very butchered copy of what is in the dd stream.

It would be quite possible to match the distortion and alter the dd copy to match the damaged copies. It is not possible to restore the damaged copies to even come close to the fidelity of the dd copy (lossy vs the actual LPCM studio master as it may be). They're too far gone.

There are degrees for everything.

The Atmos stream is in fact damaged from the mastering gone wrong too. There may be fidelity left and it may be exciting hearing all the little speakers sounding around the room. But it is in fact damaged and to the extent that this should be a recall situation for this release.

Oh boy, so the stand-alone DVD players don't let you select the "lesser" dd stream when the machine can read the more advanced stream? That's ugly! You would have to rip it and then author a new DVD for yourself with only the dd stream. PITA but it would absolutely be worth it! This is bad but we DO have a still great copy of a genuinely great 5.1 mix on this disc and that's not nothing!

Since I can't select the DD 5.1 from the BD, I used the mkv complete rip which offers all track flavors. I was able to select on the fly the DD 5.1 as well as the DTHD 7.1 (or Atmos) using my Oppo 203. According to my Denon 6200, the DD 5.1 decoded to seven channels (FL, FR, C, SL, SR, SB, LFE) with a single matrixed SB channel. On my system, the single SB channel is steered to the SBL and SBR speakers.

I couldn't tell much difference between the DD 5.1 and the DTHD 7.1

 

[Ranasakawa]

I don't hear much in the rear speakers. It is a 6 from me. Not happy

 

[perzon57]

Which audio stream are you listening to?There are big differences in rear output level between them.

 

[jimfisheye]

MakeMKV - Make MKV from Blu-ray and DVD

MediaInfo

Not sure why I keep forgetting about MediaInfo. Right there in my Applications folder...

OK, I see the exact same thing.

My understanding is the 7.1 "core" is what it is. Height and other objects get directed to the correct position in the height and object array of channels available on the system in question. The point is that the 7.1 core of the Atmos mix does not get manipulated in the process. One scenario that that can lead to is missing elements of the mix if there's miscommunication in the system in the form of it not seeing the object/height array correctly.

That whole subject aside for now. Following the point that the 7.1 core of the mix is the 7.1 core of the mix and it's 1:1 in the data set. (Meaning the 7.1 core is not generated from a data set like the object array. The 7.1 core is a raw data element.) Looking at and listening to the 7.1 8 channel audio (which can be extracted from the Dolby True HD stream and in fact is designed to do so in any system without the Atmos codec). The 7.1 core has the very same sonic destruction as the dts ma 5.1 stream and the stereo stream.

You may be hearing stuff trickle out of some of the height or object channels in your Atmos system and there may be hifi-ish remains of the mix. But the Atmos mix is in fact every bit as destroyed as the other destroyed audio streams and you really are not hearing the mix in any way shape or form as intended.

 

[perzon57]

Do you have a Atmos setup?

 

[ar surround]

The lossless stereo mix is full on volume war hash.

Oh just wonderful. So you’re telling us that we don’t even get a decent quality hi-res stereo remix along with a butchered DTS 5.1 layer? Mine is sitting still unopened. Maybe I should just send it back.

 

[jefe1]

Finally finally I get to save some money by not buying something........guess I will stick with my Lennon Legend dvd.

 

[jimfisheye]

Oh just wonderful. So you’re telling us that we don’t even get a decent quality hi-res stereo remix along with a butchered DTS 5.1 layer? Mine is sitting still unopened. Maybe I should just send it back.

That's what I'm telling you, yes.

I could try to be really fair. Put the clues and evidence aside (the raw mix in the dd stream that is). Based just on listening like you're supposed to do.

It is loud but the initial impression is of high fidelity and there's nothing overtly harsh. It doesn't sound like a volume war CD outright.

The crushed 5.1 mix sounds like a ho hum front heavy surround-ish mix at first listen. Again, with hi-fi and not overtly harsh. It insidiously sounds legit and pro but just not that good of a mix ultimately. I'm repeating that first impression to illustrate how much the actual mix was altered and damaged. Because the raw mix in the dd stream is full fidelity, big and warm, discrete and with rears every bit as active as the fronts. Just very well done. The mix engineer would be right to be furious if he heard the mastering error.

My point there is that I would expect the stereo version to be every bit as compromised. We don't have a copy of the unmolested stereo to compare with.


It's still worth considering this set for only the 5.1 mix in the dd stream. It's a really good mix! "only"... You don't get stuff like this every day. And how many times have we reached further for even more damaged copies? Especially the old formats that people share to their best ability.

Still a humiliating defeat of a release!
Recall and collector's item?