The quandary: do I move on from my superb sounding 5.1 setup to be able to enjoy the latest surround technology? Thoughts/experiences welcome.

[LuvMyQuad]

Setting the Oppo to 7.1 will end up with a loss of information. No doubt about it. Setting it to 5.1 will preserve all the signal and send any surround rear info to the surround sides. But you don't use sides. Your surrounds are behind you, like a classic 4 corner quad system. I see that as the crux of your problem.

When playing Atmos in 5.1, Front height channel info will show up in the front mains. Rear Height channel info will show up in the surrounds. The placement of the height signals isn't a downmix. That information is already in the 7.1 bed. It gets "moved" by the Atmos processing. The only true downmix involved is in going from 7.1 to 5.1.

With my 5.1 setup, the rears were always at the sides (and slightly behind) to begin with. I prefer it that way, even for quad material.

Like this. My angle (2) is about 100 degrees

 

[LuvMyQuad]

.I hadn't noticed that note on the Floyd disc. Points there! Now I'm sad I don't really like that Atmos mix.

IMO The DSOTM Atmos mix is basically the 5.1 mix with cooler effects. Neither is as good as the AP quad mix with respect to the music mix itself, although the 5.1/Atmos has better sonics.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

If being put up for a vote, I'd say address whatever is spoiling the Atmos downmix experience. 100% nothing should 'disappear' unless your amp is trying to send the ceiling signal to speakers you don't have connected or it's configured to send the signal someplace instead of merging it into existing channels(?).

I'm still holding on contently with 5.1, even cross-graded my amp recently to a newer 5.1 amp [was just trying to get out ahead of imminent failure of my existing amp]. I have a few Atmos discs with and without distinct 5.1 playback options, and haven't had any major issues with the Atmos mix "fold down" to 5.1

It sounds like you have good gear (none of what you listed I'm familiar with) and if you think there's a long game in continuing to use it, then stay with what's working. If you've heard some Atmos material and feel compelled to start heading down that road, then by all means. But it sounds more like you're where I'm at -- Atmos is a nice curiosity, and I'll maybe get there someday. Maybe. And maybe someday.

I've said before, If you consider the upgrade from stereo to 5.1 as a "10" on the satisfaction scale, the upgrade from 5.1 to Atmos is a 3 at best. Just an opinion. YMMV.

 

[scottm18]

When playing Atmos in 5.1, Front height channel info will show up in the front mains. Rear Height channel info will show up in the surrounds.

That is exactly right as shown by the other handy dandy extra on the Atmos disc--speaker channel ID. When I have the Oppo in 7.1... all speakers are announced except for surround back left and right, but including both front height and rear height. That oddly transfers in the music for the song "Money" in particular to where the second and fourth cash register zing must be in the surround back rear speakers because I have no sound whatsoever during that portion With the Oppo in 5.1, as you said the surround back is blended with the regular surround but also the surround height is blended with the front mains and rear surrounds...which may be why the anchoring for the vocals is a little off. And if I'm listening to mixdown 5.1 Atmos, I might as well listen to true 5.1 if they offer it...which in this case they do, although it is not the latest mix. But that's also not always the case

Love that clear speaker placement depiction you found, so I'll counter with my fourth grade art version

My main speakers are 10' away and my surround speakers are about 60 degrees I would say from sitting position and are about 6' away on the angle. The little squiggle lines are really the only position I could put side speakers because on the left I have an entrance to the kitchen and to the right I have a huge 105" window... so it's not in line with each other and it's too close to the rear speakers. See the second attachment for detail there where it shows would have no space to mount it. My sub is actually behind me cause it's so big (a table) so it's a "reverse phase" configuration. But believe me, loaded up with the same two 10s from the main speakers, it smokes just like it was sitting right in the front speaker line and have zero issues there. There's really only so much I can do with an 11x14 room, but that also is a plus in that it's very symmetrical and very lively.

With this configuration, playing something with a sublime recording like Aaron Neville's Devotion DVDA which I recently rediscovered this more spiritual than religious release (and strongly recommend for 20 bucks on Amazon BTW!). I prefer the sound quality of this to his similar Believe. The former immediately loads up a stunning version of "Morning has Broken" that sounds absolutely fabulous. Just for fun I called my neighbor over and said due to this current configuration I'm having problems playing more modern mixes with more channels... but listen to what I have now and see what you think. I played this very song I mentioned and his response: "Who the *bleep* cares about the extra channels...this sounds incredible. I've never heard a better system in my life". So there's that I suppose

I just know I'm so used to the sublimely rich & organic analog sound of the best 5.1 releases that are custom-engineered and mixed for each channel meticulously by people like the brilliant Elliot Scheiner...that the mixdown from Atmos versions is disappointing in comparison in its clarity and presence. That's just something I'm just going to have to accept or avoid...

Oh...I almost forgot one other major plus. Quad (Quadio) releases and other four channel SACDs (like Loggins& Messina or the Billy Joel Street Life Serenade) also sound wonderful because all my speakers are full range (10s in front & 8s in rear) so even without the subwoofer I still have plenty of bass for almost every scenario. A perfect example is ELP Brain Salad Surgery which is oddly partially 5.0 and partially 5.1...but the whole thing sounds very similar in sound, and rather awesome at that. Definitely top five of the best sounding DVD audios in my book (so is the underappreciated Big Phat Band XXL)...and the fact that the stunning "Lucky Man" is included in 5.1 only on the DVD-Audio (stripped off the SACD reissue) makes it extremely coveted. Kellogg knocked this one totally out of the park on the remix!

Lastly...I really appreciate everyone's input here. After 20 years of glorious music listening with this system basically intact, I'm finally running into some chinks in the armor with the new technology...so I'm taking all this input and advice to heart. This channel rocks with some really smart people

 

[jimfisheye]

If you play a TrueHD Atmos file with VLC player (ie not decoded), it folds the height channels into the bed channels and outputs 7.1. Not to Atmos downmix spec but with straight levels from all the channels. I think older versions will output just the 7.1 channels and omit the height channels from the mix. So, you need to check that. VLC player will also swap the side and rear channels in this scenario. That means you could swap the wiring between sides and rears and then you could play 5.1 and downmixed Atmos correctly in a 7.1 system. A "two wrongs" system! I don't recommend doing any of that and instead just toggling between two speaker management setups.

 

[scottm18]

I don't play anything off the computer anymore. I used to run my SACD images off J River to an Exasound Mch DAC... but since JR can't handle DVD-Audio images (which is the majority of my media) I dumped it and just run off directly off a modified Oppo 205 w/ connected SSDs for the purest direct single path. I also have a Bryson BDP3 connected to that for hi-res Qobuz streaming

 

[omnipotent1]

Get more of the same then! That's what I did. There's no "moving on", only moving up! (Yes, pun intended.)

If you are curious what ricocheting sound off your walls and ceiling sounds like sans speakers, turn your speakers facing the wall and listen. Those soundbars are crafty for movie soundtrack mixes but would be mutilating for full music mixes. (Sure you didn't mean to say "swears at"?)

The decoder is the issue. And they very much want to force you into a hardware purchase to get access to it that way. That means buying new amps all over again if it's a new AVR. Dolby still isn't selling their reference player commercially. They must want people to get it another way or something. Don't read too much into that. Or do.

Short version:
Don't compromise fidelity just to get more channels! Turns into a gimmick quickly if you were used to hi fidelity. Get more speakers at your current standard at minimum. Figure out how to grab a copy of the new decoder.

I sea what you did there aye aye Captain

 

[austinsignal]

If you love it, leave it alone! It sounds to me like you have a room and a set of equipment that make for a wonderful listening experience. Adding complications may just disappoint you.

Early on there definitely ATMOS mixes that didn't downmix well to 5.1, but I think now, especially for 'major release' mixes, the 5.1 sounds great. The Dolby software relative to downmixes is better now, and the mix engineers have a better idea of what works and what doesn't. And, there's no question that 5.1 is by far the largest surround install base out there.

I don't know of any way for mix engineers to deliver stand alone 5.1's within the ATMOS playback ecosystem, but I think the 5.1 fold downs sound great. I'd love to hear your rig as is!

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I don't play anything off the computer anymore. I used to run my SACD images off J River to an Exasound Mch DAC... but since JR can't handle DVD-Audio images (which is the majority of my media) I dumped it and just run off directly off a modified Oppo 205 w/ connected SSDs for the purest direct single path. I also have a Bryson BDP3 connected to that for hi-res Qobuz streaming

Convert the images to FLAC files. JRiver will play them just fine

 

[LuvMyQuad]

If you play a TrueHD Atmos file with VLC player (ie not decoded), it folds the height channels into the bed channels and outputs 7.1. Not to Atmos downmix spec but with straight levels from all the channels. .

Nothing folds in this instance. The height info is already in the 7.1 floors and without any Atmos processing, it just stays there.

.I think older versions will output just the 7.1 channels and omit the height channels from the mix. So, you need to check that.

Nothing is omitted either.

.VLC player will also swap the side and rear channels in this scenario. That means you could swap the wiring between sides and rears and then you could play 5.1 and downmixed Atmos correctly in a 7.1 system. A "two wrongs" system! I don't recommend doing any of that and instead just toggling between two speaker management setups.

I don't get this at all. Swap what? It either plays across 7.1 channels if available or it downmixes to 5.1 and combines the sides and the rears.

 

[scottm18]

If you love it, leave it alone! It sounds to me like you have a room and a set of equipment that make for a wonderful listening experience. Adding complications may just disappoint you.

The phrase the grass isn't always greener comes to mind .

Especially after talking to my neighbor who is a neutral third party in this...I think I may just keep what I got exactly as is. If my heavily used (but not disc played) Oppo 205 ever goes then I'm going to need to reconsider things. Considering Atmos is just a tiny portion of my media which mainly consist of 5.1 & quad releases--both of which truly excel in playback--I really don't want to mess with that wonderful synch.

I have some more cool stuff too outside of the HT arena so I should consider myself lucky & fortunate to be able to partake in all this.

These latest pictures (in addition to showing the really slick design of the Phantom) show my headphones set up (yes those are Final Audio's Sonorous X and Forte X "earspeakers" ) and (currently disabled) turntable setup--the two highly coveted linear tracking 80s Technics TTs...the SL7 & SL10 complete with the EPC310 cartridge.

If you know what you're looking for you can collect some great & lasting audiophile gems over 20 years

 

[jimfisheye]

Nothing folds in this instance. The height info is already in the 7.1 floors and without any Atmos processing, it just stays there.



Nothing is omitted either.


I don't get this at all. Swap what? It either plays across 7.1 channels if available or it downmixes to 5.1 and combines the sides and the rears.

Atmos isn't doing sound separation on audio data. The objects are delivered as metadata. They leverage the core + extended system to fold it together if you don't have the official decoder. The object audio is absolutely not mixed into the bed channels and separated after the fact.

I suspect this is more miscommunication than anyone trying to claim demixing is going on. That would make Atmos laughably lo-fi and make the full 1:1 decode secondary too. For all that can be said about their handling of the decoder and grifting around it, the system is genuinely 1:1 with 12 and 16 channel mixes. The downmixes are secondary.

Any media player (software or stand alone) that can only do core dolby will only play the 8 channel bed and omit any object data. More current generation software folds the objects into the 8 channels. Height channels are always objects, FYI. The channel swap business from the screw up between 5.1 side and 5.1 rear formats is real. VLC doing the two wrongs thing is an example of the fallout. My idiotic suggestion above would work.

I still recommend to chase the actual mixes and just accept whatever from downmixes. You can always mess with someone's mix. Some people around here live for that! There's only one way to hear a mix as it was intended by the people who made it. Chase that. You can already do what you want with anything else.

 

[DrKlahn]

I've been where you're at. Things are great. You're considering changes, but you don't want to make things worse in the process.

I think staying put would be the wrong call. More, not less, material is going to come out in more and more channels. Engineers focus for new and re-mastered material going forward is not going to be 5.1. My old setup with a Denon player with analog outs to a Rotel for DVDA/SACD sounded great, but the reality is that bass management, time delay, correction, etc. in the digital domain on a modern processor can do a lot more than what the Oppo is doing for you. There's not really "analog bliss" happening here with any digital material, you're just doing the D/A conversion on a much less capable piece of hardware.

I think you can easily find through auditioning gear a processor that will be a very noticeable improvement over the current setup. Even with 5.1. And expanding beyond 5.1 opens up a new experience and shouldn't detract from what you have. There's some truly fantastic stuff out there right now in Atmos that are worth the effort to hear properly.

The Lyngdorf MP40/60 are great choices for expansion, but lack analog inputs. If you need analog inputs I'd look towards Anthem.

 

[barfle]

In order to get Atmos decoded, you need an AVP that decodes Atmos from the HDMI from your Oppo. It’s possible to set up your system so it uses the Oppo’s analog outputs for 5.1 and HDMI for Atmos, so you won’t necessarily lose what you’ve got.

That’s what I intend to do when I put up the bucks for an Atmos-capable AVP. The ceiling speakers are in, the wiring goes to the rack, but no decoding and no amps for that feature yet.

As has been noted, if your Oppo is told that you have seven speakers, it will try to send the signals to seven destinations. If you only have five, two of the signals won’t get to your ears.

I am set up for 5.1, and 7.1 would be a royal PITA because of the media storage and the proximity of the seating to one wall, so it’s unlikely that I will ever do that. But 5.1.4 is definitely part of the plan. Eventually.

Oh, and Oppo is still repairing decks, and as I understand it, at a decent price.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Atmos isn't doing sound separation on audio data. The objects are delivered as metadata. They leverage the core + extended system to fold it together if you don't have the official decoder. The object audio is absolutely not mixed into the bed channels and separated after the fact.

I suspect this is more miscommunication than anyone trying to claim demixing is going on. That would make Atmos laughably lo-fi and make the full 1:1 decode secondary too. For all that can be said about their handling of the decoder and grifting around it, the system is genuinely 1:1 with 12 and 16 channel mixes. The downmixes are secondary.

Any media player (software or stand alone) that can only do core dolby will only play the 8 channel bed and omit any object data. More current generation software folds the objects into the 8 channels. Height channels are always objects, FYI. The channel swap business from the screw up between 5.1 side and 5.1 rear formats is real. VLC doing the two wrongs thing is an example of the fallout. My idiotic suggestion above would work.

I still recommend to chase the actual mixes and just accept whatever from downmixes. You can always mess with someone's mix. Some people around here live for that! There's only one way to hear a mix as it was intended by the people who made it. Chase that. You can already do what you want with anything else.

What you are describing is not how this actually works when it comes to playback of an optical disc. With no Atmos processing involved at all, 7.1 plays as 7.1. Its all there. No software manipulation. No metatata. No fold down. Its straight 7.1.

If you run Atmos processing, the metadata is used to remove the objects from the 7.1 base and place them where they are at intended.

Streaming Atmos is a bit different in that it is built on a 5.1 base and two of the floor channels are assigned as objects.

 

[DrKlahn]

In order to get Atmos decoded, you need an AVP that decodes Atmos from the HDMI from your Oppo. It’s possible to set up your system so it uses the Oppo’s analog outputs for 5.1 and HDMI for Atmos, so you won’t necessarily lose what you’ve got.

That’s what I intend to do when I put up the bucks for an Atmos-capable AVP. The ceiling speakers are in, the wiring goes to the rack, but no decoding and no amps for that feature yet.

As has been noted, if your Oppo is told that you have seven speakers, it will try to send the signals to seven destinations. If you only have five, two of the signals won’t get to your ears.

I am set up for 5.1, and 7.1 would be a royal PITA because of the media storage and the proximity of the seating to one wall, so it’s unlikely that I will ever do that. But 5.1.4 is definitely part of the plan. Eventually.

Oh, and Oppo is still repairing decks, and as I understand it, at a decent price.

If you have a modern AVP that has HDMI, I wouldn't suggest continuing to use the analog outputs on the Oppo. I know the converters in the Oppo are very good, but I doubt they'd be any better than what the AVP has. Worse a lot of AVPs do everything (a lot of the time even volume control) in the digital domain, so it's very likely you're just doing an extra unnecessary conversion by taking the analog input, converting it to digital for manipulation and then back to analog. Much better to feed the AVP any digital signal and let it handle it.

 

[jimfisheye]

Atmos format is the same delivered from disc. You might have a stand alone player using an alternate audio stream. Authored bluray discs will have multiple formats including the old 16/48 core dolby.

Extraordinary claims beg extraordinary evidence. I can run the Dolby software (the official Dolby Atmos renderer and media encoder) and the decoded files match the source masters. Dolby is not doing mix separation on bed audio to recreate the object audio for the full 1:1 delivery.

Again, I suspect some miscommunication of terms here! That would be quite the accusation to Dolby! I hate to defend them for anything right now but I have to defend them here. The software delivers 12 or 16 channels 1:1 for me. Commercial bluray discs I've ripped have no artifacts to suggest anything different either.

 

[Owen Smith]

Even a "downmix" to 5.1 is still noticeably not as good as true 5.1 because the anchoring is gone and vocals are just too "floaty".

Don't use DSOTM to judge how Atmos played as 5.1 sounds on your system. There is something very wrong with the DSOTM disc encoding, as discussed elsewhere on QQ. I have a 5.0 system with an Atmos capable AVR. If I play either the Atmos test tones or the album in straight 5.0 it is as you describe, very "floaty" and no real localisation of anything. The test tones each play in 4 out of my 5 speakers. But if I engage Atmos in my Arcam AVR31 and have it render that to 5.0 (an entirely valid option) then it all sounds much better, the test tones appear where they should and the localisation in the album comes back.

So while this is a valid exercise for you, DSOTM is the wrong disc to use for testing. One solution you could consider is leave your speaker setup alone and get an Atmos capable decoder or AVR and then like me you can have an Atmos render down to your speaker layout.

 

[panamac]

So I've literally had the same speaker system for 20 years now, only the driving components have been upgraded. It consists of Innovative Audio cabinet speakers if you remember those which have some fantastic Scandinavian drivers: 10" custom woofer, Seas 5" mid-range and Peerless 1" tweeter--used for LCR. For the surrounds, another classic is in use which would be Acoustic Research Phantom 8.3 with its ultra slick outer magnet to keep the thin profile. Finally, things are topped off with the same dual 10s" that are in my cabinet speakers for a massive sub. The main rig consists of the state-of-the-art (for analog) Audio Research multi-channel preamp and McCormack/Conrad Johnson amp...with a modified Oppo 205 for the only digital component. This all runs into an Audience AR6 conditioner to offset the power woes in my state.

Bottom line, with what the system was designed for (meaning 5.1), it sounds absolutely sublime. It's been interesting to watch the audio increase between the Denon I started with and the superb separates I have now--which is now absolutely top-tier SQ. In my personal opinion, DVD-Audio and SACD are the best audio format ever invented. The sound on the top-notch ones was superb and and most importantly, keeping it to 5.1 channels means the engineer could concentrate on fewer channels and better sound per channel--as opposed to dealing with 47 different channels like now.. Just sampling Beck's Sea Change or ELP Brain Salad Surgery, or Aaron Neville Devotion--when I put these on my "regular music listening" friends are completely blown away with the audio quality But then some cracks in the armor: I first noticed a problem when I tried to convert my system to 7.1 (extra set of Phantoms), because now my primary use DVD-Audio (5.1) rear channels move to the side and completely throw off the balance. Rather amusingly, twenty years later I was surprised to see this very phenomenon humorously documented on the Pink Floyd DSOM Atmos disc. Probably the best on-disc explanation of this setup nonsense I've ever read

So up until now, I've had no problem with my 5.1 setup... with both preamp and amp only being 5 channels. Even the advent of Blu-ray audio with such great titles as Bob Marley Legend or Beck's masterful Sea Change now sound even better with a greater (up to double) bitrate than the already great DVD Audio/SACD... at first keeping to a choice between 5.1 and 7.1 usually. But then things changed...for the worse in my case.

Dolby Atmos wasn't content just taking over movies, it had to make its presence known in music as well and rear it's ugly head. In borrowing two of the top selling discs very recently--meaning DOSM and Who's Next Atmos--unfortunately I now see the limitation of my system because it cannot handle the Atmos encoding properly. And of course the newest and greatest mixes are usually Atmos-only (such as with DSOM). With Oppo my 205 in 7.1 speaker configuration (with no SB speakers), parts of the now song just disappear as it moves to just those channels. Even a "downmix" to 5.1 is still noticeably not as good as true 5.1 because the anchoring is gone and vocals are just too "floaty". On streaming services like Apple Music in Atmos/surround, with the Oppo 5.1 mix set everything is too front-mixed but with the 7.1 set it's too rear-mixed. I can't win. It's obviously my "discreet" analog channels are causing problems with the newest technology.

Therein lies my dilemma. Do I kill the terrific analog 5.1 sound that is basically unmatched people who hear it say...and take a chance and upgrade where I have to start over with a receiver (maybe Marantz 8015) vs a preamp/amp. I doubt I would add any surround back speakers to keep my living room from looking like an electronic store... but I could add some ceiling bounce height drivers on top of my front speakers--of course the only possible if I digitally driven. And there's always that Nak Dragon beast of a sound bar that would probably take over every square inch of space in my living room

So I'm curious, for the people who can run Atmos here...how do you do it? Do you run like a simple Samsung 990 soundbar that my friend swears by...but I don't believe would sound nearly as good as true speakers. Or have you actually taken the time to literally add an Atmos system complete with the expensive and time-consuming ceiling speaker mounts like another friend has done (cost him about two grand for installation alone to do two rooms). In one of his rooms he actually has two sets of components and speakers to keep the original 5.1 configuration intact--but I don't have the space for that. Is anyone in the same predicament as me and regrets configuring for the Atmos madness? Chasing the dragon's tail analogy comes to mind. I think it ran across at least one post here of somebody who is....

Curse you technology!

In a word: YES. I also use the OPPO 205. I replaced my 7.1 receiver with Marantz separates. Added overhead speakers. BIG improvement. Also, much more variety. I play 5.1 DVD-A and SACD for localized sound, and atmos music for 3d floating surround. Visitors recognize the difference immediately. For video, atmos tracks for movies are a cut above. I hope atmos concerts will get there, but they are mediocre so far

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Atmos format is the same delivered from disc. You might have a stand alone player using an alternate audio stream. Authored bluray discs will have multiple formats including the old 16/48 core dolby.

Extraordinary claims beg extraordinary evidence. I can run the Dolby software (the official Dolby Atmos renderer and media encoder) and the decoded files match the source masters. Dolby is not doing mix separation on bed audio to recreate the object audio for the full 1:1 delivery.

Again, I suspect some miscommunication of terms here! That would be quite the accusation to Dolby! I hate to defend them for anything right now but I have to defend them here. The software delivers 12 or 16 channels 1:1 for me. Commercial bluray discs I've ripped have no artifacts to suggest anything different either.

I don't play the optical discs at all. I play the ripped files. I have two AVPs in the system. One is Atmos enabled. One is not. I can choose between them at will with the click of a switch. I can rip the Dolby 7.1 tracks and convert to FLAC. I can play these files back from either AVP. When I do, it's all there. Nothing is missing, and there is obviously nothing in that process that facilitates a fold down of any kind.

If I rip the 7.1 to MKV, it preserves the metadata. If I play that MKV back using the non Atmos AVP, it ignores the metadata and plays back as 7.1. Again no data is missing and there is no fold down. If I play it back with the Atmos enabled AVP, it registers as Atmos and the height channels get populated.

I have about a dozen Atmos discs that I've ripped in this way. I believe Ive only ever seen the following streams to choose from:

7.1 Dolby TrueHD (24/48)
5.1 Dolby Digital substream
2.0 Dolby TrueHD (24/48)

5.1 DTS MA (24/48, 24/96) dedicated mix, not on every disc
5.1 Dolby TrueHD (24/96) dedicated mix, not on every disc
2.0 DTS MA (24/48, 24/96)

Maybe some LPCM streams

I have never seen a 16 bit stream