Elton John "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" HFPA Blu-Ray Release

[quattroatl]

Sorry to be a party pooper, but the dvda sounds better than this pure audio release in 5.1...at least to my ears. I am once again convinced that these HFPA releases are mere ports of their sacd or dvda counterparts with little to no extra work done for the blu-ray.

Almost all HFPA releases are a waste of money, unless you don't have the out of print dvda or sacd. This is just my humble opinion on the matter.

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

Unfortunately, after seeing the DR on the BD, I cancelled my pre-order.

 

[cupboy]

Unfortunately, after seeing the DR on the BD, I cancelled my pre-order.

Is that the BD. I thought it was a CD. How does he have the BD already?

 

[fredblue]

Is that the BD. I thought it was a CD. How does he have the BD already?

the BD has been available in the UK since March 24th, I'm guessing steelydave got it on import.

 

[fredblue]

Unfortunately, after seeing the DR on the BD, I cancelled my pre-order.

that's a shame, the BD sounds very nice both ways.

 

[fredblue]

Sorry to be a party pooper, but the dvda sounds better than this pure audio release in 5.1...at least to my ears. I am once again convinced that these HFPA releases are mere ports of their sacd or dvda counterparts with little to no extra work done for the blu-ray.

Almost all HFPA releases are a waste of money, unless you don't have the out of print dvda or sacd. This is just my humble opinion on the matter.

Interesting, thanks for the info

I haven't compared the BD to the DVDA yet but the BD sounds less bright than the SACD to me and the rears (for reasons of compression I think steelydave said?) seem more balanced and cohesive on the BD than the SACDs too.

I'll add this, neither the stereo nor the 5.1 on this HFPA are ports of anything on the SACD. I can't speak for the DVDA as I haven't compared it, so in the interests of what's only right I'll defer to you on that one.

Fwiw, the stereo on the BDA is a brand new remaster by Bob Ludwig for 2014 and does not suffer the clipping the CD of the same mastering does.

the 5.1 on the new BDA has been proven by steelydave to be free of the DSD noise inherent in the SACD, so if it was a straight port the noise would be there on the Blu-ray's spectral plots.

however, I'm not here to try and convince anyone and if people can make their mind up without hearing the BDA based on DR alone that strikes me as their call but a bit churlish.

I'm definitely not pointing any fingers, especially at you quattroatl, you have listened to the BDA but this is not like the Beck HFPA which is a straight port of the SACD complete with noise etc (though that disc still sounds superb!) there comes a point of getting hung up on DR numbers and graphs and so on.. the DR of the BD is not significantly the poorer, steelydave himself said it wasn't compressed more by any leaps and bounds.

my touchstone would be = how does it sound to you?

You've heard it quattroatl and you don't like it as much as the DVDA, fair enough but I say to anyone reading this who is on the fence, whether you have the SACD/DVDA or not, if you see this one around and it's below RRP go for it, I think you may be pleasantly surprised by what you hear

to anyone who's reading.. and is enjoying the BDA of GYBR.. happy listening!

 

[steelydave]

Let me see if I can answer all these things:

1) I honestly don't think the front/rear balance has been altered at all, but it's possible that the extra compression (which is minimal) is creating the perception of balance, because the more you compress something, the more everything becomes the same volume. If there's a specific track that you think is imbalanced on the SACD please give me a track number and exact time and I'll compare the waveforms of the SACD and BluRay and post visual proof that they are/aren't the same. I never personally felt that the SACD was too loud in the rears so this may just be placebo effect...not that I'm accusing you of having a tin ear or anything.

2) There is lots of debate out there about whether the ultrasonic noise from SACD has any detrimental effect. Naysayers will tell you that ultrasonic noise is just that - ultrasonic - and therefore unhearable, and therefore can't have a detrimental effect. Personally, I think the less of any kind of noise the better; ultrasonic noise is like extremely high pitched static - think of what static on a poorly-tuned radio station does to music...ultrasonic noise is doing a similar thing just in a much higher range. I've always preferred the high end with PCM (DVD-A, BluRay, etc.) over DSD, it just feels to me like the high end is smoother, and personally I put that down to the absence of the ultrasonic noise you get with DSD. I think it's possible that the absence of ultrasonic noise could account for the BluRay sounding less bright - it's probably just as bright technically speaking, but the higher frequencies are resolving better. Take Q8's for example - they tend to sound really harsh and midrangey. This isn't because they have too much midrange, it's because the high-frequency response falls off steeply after about 8kHz. So in order to make them sound better you don't subtract midrange, because you'd just be left with bass, you boost the high end so that it's in line with the midrange. Now apply this theory to this BluRay/SACD - there's no doubt the high end is boosted, starting at 5.5kHz and maxing out at around 10kHz which accounts for the brightness. Perhaps if the frequencies above the boost are being interfered with by ultrasonic noise, it's accounting for some of the harshness.

3) When I said the BluRay was mastered hotter than the SACD, I should've said it wasn't by much...only 0.5dB to 1dB at most. It's too small of an interval to be perceptible to the human ear I think.

4) I actually quite like that the fade up is missing at the beginning of Social Disease, it flows really nicely from the previous track. Obviously I haven't listened to the album quite as much as FredBlue...I understand how this kind of thing is annoying to purists.

5) The DR values I posted previously in the big chart at the beginning of my post were the comparison of the 5.1 mixes on the Blu Ray vs. the SACD. The DR report at the end of the post was the DR values for the new mastering of the stereo mix on the BluRay.

6) I listened to the BluRay today and even with the DR issues, it sounds really good. I haven't listened to the SACD recently, but I agree with Fred that the high end sounds smoother than I remember on the SACD, and the fact that it's a straight PCM transfer may make it my go-to version. Given that all the remixing work was done in PCM, a PCM end product is always preferable - when you have a DSD end product from a PCM master, you get the worst of both worlds, as with PCM end products made from DSD masters, vinyl cut from digital masters, etc. etc. I'm going to try and get my hands on the DVD-A and do some spectral analysis and DR evaluation, so I can make a grand proclamation about which version is the best.

 

[fredblue]

Thank you Dave, I do appreciate all your help and insight and the sheer effort you've put into all this.

All I did was loser with no preconceptions, other than fears for the worst that it would be inferior to the SACD and that is not the conclusion I came to and as far as the end result of the sound you do not disagree with me

I can't stress enough, irrespective of this being Elton and one of my all-time favourite records, any bias/favouritism I may have towards the artist and album, if QQ-ers choose to reject the Blu-ray on the basis of DR info (and spectral plots and so forth) I respect that but they really are missing out.. the disc sounds fabulous in both Stereo and Surround to me and is an improvement on the old Hybrid SACD set in a fair few appreciable ways, imho.

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

however, I'm not here to try and convince anyone and if people can make their mind up without hearing the BDA based on DR alone that strikes me as their call but a bit churlish.

That's not fair. I have owned different format copies of GBYBR since the 8-Track and I can't see buying yet another hi-res version if it only sounds a little better with the same dynamic compression. If they decide to release more EJ records on BD, I may reconsider purchasing this disc and replace all my EJ SACD discs (not that I'm selling the SACD versions).

 

[fredblue]

That's not fair. I have owned different format copies of GBYBR since the 8-Track and I can't see buying yet another hi-res version if it only sounds a little better with the same dynamic compression. If they decide to release more EJ records in BD, I may reconsider purchasing this disc and replace all my EJ SACD discs (not that I'm selling the SACD versions).

aww.. I'm not being mean! (that's just not in my nature!) I'm only being totally honest about how I feel. this is one of those (rare) occasions where I feel getting hung up about an arguably imperceptible DR decrease (that's the right terminology, right? the dynamic range has been reduced/decreased by the +0.5/+1 boost?) would be a shame because this disc sounds good, very very good in fact.

also, I have no axe to grind in talking this up to support Blu-ray's or to encourage Universal to release more of the same (though to be totally transparent about it, that would of course be a wonderful by-product of the Blu-ray selling well) it is simply that this disc stands on its own merits as being a keeper.

It's not perfect and it should be.. there are faults.. but it does sound excellent, in places the mid is astonishingly good and top end sounds smoother than the SACD. were it not for the lack of the bonus tracks and the fade in goof on Social Disease this would be perfect and indispensable to me - as it is, it's a release no Elton fan or Hi-Res or surround enthusiast should be without, or at least should consider

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

aww.. I'm not being mean! (that's just not in my nature!) I'm only being totally honest about how I feel. this is one of those (rare) occasions where I feel getting hung up about an arguably imperceptible DR decrease (that's the right terminology, right? the dynamic range has been reduced/decreased by the +0.5/+1 boost?) would be a shame because this disc sounds good, very very good in fact.

You, be mean?!:ugham:

Although, I do not get caught up most of the time with DR values of discs, I try not to purchase the same compressed discs over and over. That's just me. I do own CD's that have poor DR value that just sound better tna anything I've heard previously. Take the Split Enz box set. Even with the dynamic compression I feel Eddie Rayner did a fantastic job on the mixes.

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

btw, personally, I don't feel a dynamic range between 10-12 is that bad. And a lot of your popular music from the day is compressed to begin with.

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

Someone needs to come up with an idea to release hi-res music such as the BD format with LP sized artwork. I really miss this aspect of the LP record.

 

[keenly]

The Elton John 5.1 titles are all too loud!

 

[fredblue]

The Elton John 5.1 titles are all too loud!

Have you heard the Blu-ray?

 

[fredblue]

Someone needs to come up with an idea to release hi-res music such as the BD format with LP sized artwork. I really miss this aspect of the LP record.

With you there on that.. but we've generations too used to CD sized artwork and a new generation happy with no art at all or art the size of a postage stamp on an iTunes download.. how do you turn the tide that's been building for decades?

Music is a disposable commodity now more than ever, you can download and delete individual tracks at will, they don't have the same intrinsic worth of a work of art from sleeve to contents.. call that progress? I dunno...

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

I'm a fan of convenience and like to save space. I love having my music on hard drives but sometimes I miss the artwork and being able to read the inserts of physical formats. Right now, I have the best of both worlds but find myself listening to music off my hard drives mostly.

 

[fredblue]

I'm a fan of convenience and like to save space. I love having my music on hard drives but sometimes I miss the artwork and being able to read the inserts of physical formats. Right now, I have the best of both worlds but find myself listening to music off my hard drives mostly.

each to their own my dear fellow I don't blame you, it's great to clear out clutter and simplify these things in life! however my love affair with the physical thing goes on!

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

each to their own my dear fellow I don't blame you, it's great to clear out clutter and simplify these things in life! however my love affair with the physical thing goes on!

If the music industry made the hi-res formats like how I stated above with LP sized artwork, I'd forget all about downloads. But we all know that ain't gonna happen now, anytime soon, nor in the future.

 

[LizardKing]

...

Track|Title|Duration|BR DR|BR PEAK|BR RMS|SACD DR|SACD PEAK|SACD RMS
01|Funeral for a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding|11:08|DR10|-0.50 dB|-13.47 dB|DR11|0.00 dB|-13.88 dB
02|Candle in the Wind|3:47|DR11|-0.50 dB|-13.46 dB|DR12|0.00 dB|-13.97 dB
03|Bennie and the Jets|5:24|DR11|-0.50 dB|-13.83 dB|DR12|-0.13 dB|-14.30 dB
04|Goodbye Yellow Brick Road|3:16|DR12|-0.50 dB|-15.08 dB|DR13|0.00 dB|-14.80 dB
05|This Song Has No Title|2:21|DR12|-0.50 dB|-16.17 dB|DR12|-0.46 dB|-16.56 dB
06|Grey Seal|3:58|DR9|-0.50 dB|-11.59 dB|DR9|0.00 dB|-12.05 dB
07|Jamaica Jerk-Off|3:40|DR9|-0.50 dB|-10.85 dB|DR10|-0.51 dB|-11.82 dB
08|I've Seen That Movie Too|5:57|DR10|-0.50 dB|-12.93 dB|DR11|0.00 dB|-13.40 dB
09|Sweet Painted Lady|3:53|DR12|0.00 dB|-14.56 dB|DR12|-0.04 dB|-14.96 dB
10|The Ballad of Danny Bailey (1909-34)|4:24|DR10|-0.50 dB|-12.89 dB|DR10|0.00 dB|-13.30 dB
11|Dirty Little Girl|5:02|DR9|-0.50 dB|-11.41 dB|DR10|0.00 dB|-11.87 dB
12|All the Girls Love Alice|5:07|DR9|-0.50 dB|-12.19 dB|DR10|-0.01 dB|-12.63 dB
13|Your Sister Can't Twist (But She Can Rock 'n Roll)|2:43|DR9|-0.50 dB|-10.62 dB|DR9|-0.34 dB|-11.35 dB
14|Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting|4:54|DR8|-0.50 dB|-9.80 dB|DR9|0.00 dB|-10.28 dB
15|Roy Rogers|4:07|DR12|-0.50 dB|-13.06 dB|DR12|-0.03 dB|-13.49 dB
16|Social Disease|3:43|DR11|0.00 dB|-11.92 dB|DR11|-1.35 dB|-14.18 dB
17|Harmony|2:47|DR10|-0.50 dB|-12.14 dB|DR10|-0.05 dB|-12.59 dB

....

Not sure that these DR values are quite right for the SACD. I ran my rip through Foobar with the 0db gain and got these values:
foobar2000 1.3.1 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2014-04-06 07:03:12


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Elton John / Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 -5.58 dB -19.88 dB 11:08 01-Funeral For A Friend / Love Lies Bleeding
DR12 -5.93 dB -19.90 dB 3:48 02-Candle In The Wind
DR12 -6.22 dB -20.30 dB 5:26 03-Bennie And The Jets
DR13 -5.20 dB -20.81 dB 3:14 04-Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
DR12 -6.78 dB -22.60 dB 2:23 05-This Song Has No Title
DR9 -5.90 dB -18.02 dB 3:58 06-Grey Seal
DR10 -6.73 dB -17.80 dB 3:40 07-Jamaica Jerk Off
DR10 -6.03 dB -19.39 dB 5:57 08-I've Seen That Movie Too
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Number of tracks: 8
Official DR value: DR11


Samplerate: 2822400 Hz / PCM Samplerate: 88200 Hz
Channels: 6
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 16934 kbps
Codec: DST64
================================================================================

How'd you get your values?

with 6gb gain I get this:


foobar2000 1.3.1 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2014-04-06 07:27:09


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Elton John / Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 0.00 dB -13.88 dB 11:08 01-Funeral For A Friend / Love Lies Bleeding
DR12 0.00 dB -13.90 dB 3:48 02-Candle In The Wind
DR12 -0.22 dB -14.30 dB 5:26 03-Bennie And The Jets
DR13 0.00 dB -14.81 dB 3:14 04-Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
DR12 -0.78 dB -16.60 dB 2:23 05-This Song Has No Title
DR9 0.00 dB -12.02 dB 3:58 06-Grey Seal
DR10 -0.73 dB -11.80 dB 3:40 07-Jamaica Jerk Off
DR10 -0.03 dB -13.39 dB 5:57 08-I've Seen That Movie Too
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Number of tracks: 8
Official DR value: DR11


Samplerate: 2822400 Hz / PCM Samplerate: 88200 Hz
Channels: 6
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 16934 kbps
Codec: DST64
================================================================================

Isn't it optimal to have it with a peak at -0.01db?

EDIT: the SACD needs a 5.17dB gain...