King Biscuit Flower Hour

[mrfloydin]

I THOUGHT so!

Good eyes!

 

[mrfloydin]

Yes, after I posted I noticed the very recognizable SANSUI encoder, and QSD-1.

I had a QSD-2, and miss it now somwhat, I have a Fosgate 101a but it is sickly and needs maintenance.The R-MTX is pretty good I found on my old Sony decoder for stereo-quad synthesis, but the Sansui is superior, at least I found this to be the case.

Used to have a RM ENCODER too but no longer (don't ask what I did with it, it's embarrassing)

I still have my functioning SQ ENCODER scratchbuilt, with forward orienting sq switch built in with reqular encode, though.


That's an impressive collection's of equipment and software in my opinion.I'm sorry for leaving any prior negative opinion impressions in my past posts.I think you understand my past reticence and unless someone can pull a rabbit out of their hat the stage is yours on this matter and I'm glad we can finally move along.

Again thankyou for your response-derek



P S looking forward to further input/info from you.

Derek,

Thanks for the appreciative response. If I could ask you though, I'm still curious as to what a "4211" is.

While my equipment list was only meant to be explanatory relative to my posted photo and not to brag, I also have the following, though not seen in the previous photo.

- Marantz 4400 Quad Receiver
- Marantz 4300 Quad Receiver
- Marantz SQA-2 SQ Decoder
- Marantz SQA-2B SQ Decoder
- Marantz RC-4 Remote Joy Stick
- Teac A-2340 Quad R-R Tape Recorder
- Teac A-3340S Quad R-R Tape Recorder
- Panasonic EAH-41/Series 44 Quad Headphones

While my equipment collection includes more, I state these only to help clarify my following responses to your questions.

Additionally, my responses are totally honest, as my intent is to have full transparency here, even if it to some degree bares me to my skeptics.

Your statement:

- If you have none but Q4 Reels of KBFH (100+), I am somewhat convinced.
In my 6/6 reply to you I stated "Of the 100+ DIR/KBFH shows that I have, I have never played one that was not a discrete 4-channel tape, so I can't believe that DIR had a dual format distribution option."

I was very specific with my words [though not trying to be deceiving], but now am concerned that some have inferred more than I intended. Of my collections of various media, I have only listened to/seen about 40-50% of my acquisitions (depending upon media type), since I have been more of an active ('compulsive' as my wife says) buyer of items. Though now retired, I still struggle to find/make the time to 'play' with all of my acquired media toys.

That is to explain that in my above statement, I did not mean to imply that I have listened to all 100+ reels in my collection. To the contrary, thus far I have only listened to about 35% of my reels from which I made my statement. But these were across the entire 1973 to 1980 spectrum of KBFH reel releases. My long time quad radio show expert [who is a founding member of this forum] similarly substantiated this from his many KBFH reels.

Therefore, on my site I have made the stated assumption that all of the radio reels that DIR produced for the indexed shows, were in discrete 4-channel quad. Now I obviously cannot attest to having played all ~200 released reel shows, but since I know that the 2nd show and last show were confirmed as such, I feel confident in my assumption that everything in between was too, having found none to the contrary.

Your statements:
- And please let me know how the rear channels of the KBFH tapes are?
As detailed in my site, these quad recordings vary due to the various different attributes of whether it was a group vs a solo artist, venues, audience size, etc. This would be somewhat different if these were all recorded in the same venue, with the same recording equipment and set-ups. As my expert stated to me, "Some are more discreet than others. British Biscuit is the same." "King Biscuit distributed reel to reels to the early 1980's and although they did not advertise these as quadraphonic, many were still quad."

His statement of "many" I believe reflects his degree of verification of the late 1979 and early 1980 shows, relative to those that he had access to. I actually acquired his copy of the final, 2/10/80 KBFH Jefferson Starship reel show which he verified as being in discrete quad. As my collection has grown, I believe that I have many shows that he never had access to, so my assessment/assumptions are a collective compliment to his.

Again for honesty and clarity, while I have the above stated Marantz receivers and decoders, I have had no need to decode what I understood to be discrete 4-channel quad media. Rather I have used my TEAC recorders set up in my office, along with listening to the outputs on my Panasonic quad headphones to verify the discrete facet of these reels. I have also monitored the independent responses to their playing on the recorder's VU meters.

My aural observations of these KBFH reels are the same as my expert's, "Some (most certainly) are more discreet than others." But, some I would even describe as even marginal. Again, I didn't record or mix them, I just play and appreciate 'em.

Are they as discreet as the label (WEA, RCA, etc) Q4 REELS?
In general, I have to say no. I have ~75 discrete commercial QRs in my collection and the vast majority of these studio recordings are more discrete than the KBFH reels, though there are some pleasant exceptions.

Are they as good as some of the BBC QUAD programs ? (BBC SQ OR OTHER MATRIX?) Enquiring minds want to know. Well at least this one.
Similarly, I only have 7 BBC Transcription LPs in SQ, but have to confess that I have yet to play any of them. They're #174 on my 'to do' list. Therefore I can't offer a personal appraisal. I would assume that since most of those shows that were recorded in the 1974 - 1977 BBC 'quad experiment' era, were mostly done in a few select venues, under presumably very controlled recording conditions, that their degree of discrete sound quality is very high.

My general wrap up here is that as I approached the point of posting my site with my major format claim, I had some final communications with my expert friend. In his replies he made the following succinct, confirmational statement and I quote, "These were the tapes used to produce the SQ encoded shows. LF RF LR RR on these tapes were encoded by the radio station as they did the broadcast. Reel, to encoder, to broadcast equipment."

I realized that when I was approaching the posting of my site that contained my statements regarding the quad format of the distributed KBFH radio show reels, I realized that I was likely tossing gasoline on the fire of common beliefs. But, I'm trying to keep my asbestos suit on tightly. The EPA is of course trying to take it away from me.

Again, I'll apologize for this being a longer response than you probably expected (or wanted), but I feel that I am still having to clarify/justify my general statements about these reels. I hope that you have been willing to be patient and have beared with me here.

If I missed answering your questions, please let me know.

mrfloydin

 

[privateuniverse]

Hey Mrfloydin -

Fantastic site! I have webpages dedicated to gigographies on Todd Rundgren and Tears For Fears so I know how much time, effort & research goes into something like this.

Anyway, I have some additional information for your site. These are all KBFH broadcasts that I have original LPs or CDs of in my own collection:

10/26/85 Todd Rundgren Chicago broadcast: date of concert was 10/26/85
5/31/87 Crowded House broadcast: recorded at the Trocadero in Philadelphia on 3/24/87
9/24/01 Crowded House & Squeeze. Crowded House is selections from the above Philly 3/24/87 concert. Squeeze recorded June 1981 in NYC.
12/17/01: Tears For Fears. Massey Hall, Toronto 1985. (Tears For Fears played four nights at Massey Hall on this tour from May 29 - June 1. Unknown which night the broadcast is from.)
1/25/93 Bruce Hornsby broadcast: recorded in Daytona Beach, FL (Broadcast also includes 2 songs by G. E. Smith & the Saturday Night Live Band recorded in NYC)
October 1989 Peter Gabriel retrospective. My copy lists the broadcast dates as 10/9 - 10/15. (Not 10/2 - 10/8.)
I also have a CDR dub of a KBFH CD Crowded House/Squeeze broadcast that is not the same as the one listed above. (It is from the same two concerts, but different selection of songs.) I don' have a cue sheet or original discs so I don't know broadcast dates, but at the end Bill Menkin says "copyright 1988."
9/15/85 & 12/1/85 Tears For Fears broadcasts were both recorded at the Manchester Apollo in 1985. (TFF played two nights at this venue, April 3 & May 16. Unknown which night the broadcast is from.)

I also have the Supertramp BBC Rock Hour 1/13/85 LP. It is a rebroadcast of the 1977 Queen Mary College concert. And the label does say BBC Rock Hour #602. (FYI, the record label gives the broadcast date as 1/13/85. The cue sheet states 1/13/84.)

Hope this info helps. And thanks for putting together such a great site!

 

[fizzywiggs41]

MRFLOYDIN


Thanks most sincerely for your very lengthy and detailed reply to my questions.Your response is always a pleasure to read.

I missed out on your site re: the KBFH reviews so I'll be sure to revisit it sooner or later.Looking forward to this.

I've been reading encoder info via the Ghent microphone and related "London Box" for the past few days so I had the Encoder utilized for the plug-in "London Box" on my mind when I asked if your pic was a "4211".It of course is the "2000" and I apoligize. Had this other Encoder on my brain.


Regarding the BBC SQ discs you have, WOW!! Way cool you have so many and yet you have not listened to them? I unfortunately (play violins of sorrowful music here) have none but the SQ cd of PROCOL HARUM.Always wanted to get one or two but the prices on line for bid are restrictive for my budget.

I do however have cassette tapes in H and HJ of BBC quad transmissions from 77 & 78 .[ check out "Matrix H Articles" in the quad Lp/cd section of QQ ] . These are most impressive and I think it is a must to have the DJ Intro/outro which contain valuable info plus there is the nostalgia aspect.


I'm getting long winded here I know but I do like these broadcasts, they offer alot of enjoyment in my opinion, and you have to bump up your list of things to do if you have not listened to your BBC discs.Your missing out on quality broadcasts for certain.
Unlike North American FM they used cable via Postal Lines they rented not subject to the interference we were familiar with.

Anyway all four now, have a great day


derek ( email @gmail.com)

 

[mrfloydin]

Derek,

Sorry for the delay, but I've been sidetracked for a few days with other activities.

Thanks for clarifying the 4211 reference. This had me intrigued.

I need to correct my reference "~200 released reel shows" in the KBFH series. It is actually ~300 released reel shows. Sorry, my typo.

Also as reason for having only listened to 1/3 of my reels is the fact that I have become more aware of the results of age on these generally ~40+ year old tapes. In the possess, as mentioned in my site, the occurrence of 'sticky shed syndrome' and the resultant need to temporarily remedy the condition by delicately baking a reel tape, is becoming more the norm as a problem with my collection, as time goes on. My referenced expert has told me that whether these tapes evidence the condition or not, he routinely bakes each tape before playing these aged radio artifacts.

For me the reason and therefore frequency of playing these tapes is not so much for general listening, but rather for the purpose of dubbing to capture these recordings for archiving posterity. Due to their common vulnerabilities due to aging, they are not for just playing like a CD, whenever you are in the mood to hear it.

And as I have encountered this, as well as the audible 'squeak' of the loss of lubricant condition, more of my tapes have become unplayable without some direct attention first.

Up until now, I have not baked any of my tapes, but have now decided to. I have just purchased the recommended food dehydrator to accomplish this. Yes, I know that sounds weird, but that's for real.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLEjOoRS_cM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7QGhPxkAds
Note: skip the 1st half of the second clip.

The other aspect of my dubbing intentions is capture all 4 tracks of these discrete quad reels and not just 2 stereo channels. I have done some research and have been identifying and acquiring additional audio equipment and SW tools to do this. I have purchased the hardware needed and now need to secure the correct audio editing SW to record the output. On this front, I understand that I have a lot more to learn about the process.

As a result of all of this preparation work, I have decided not to play any more of my tapes until I have everything in place to support this dubbing activity.

Therefore, while I expect to continue to acquire more KBFH reels, for the moment I will not listen to any of them, so as not to risk doing any damage to them, until I can properly capture their sound content.

As to listening to my BBC TS SQ LPs, I'll try and move them up the priority ladder, but I've got a lot of irons in the fire these days, including now replying to the various posts and PMs that have been sent to me in the past 2 weeks. I'm also updating my site indices to reflect much of the information that has been generously forwarded. I hope to post those to my site within a few weeks too.

Also, I plan to post a separate reply to you on the "Matrix H Articles" thread in a few days. Please look for it.

mrfloydin

 

[Banjo800]

Two software packages come immediately to mind. One is Adobe Audition. The 3.0 version is freely available from Adobe (or at least it was last time I looked & downloaded!) You may have to register. The other is Audacity. I use this more than any other audio editor. It's free, regularly updated, and is an outstanding package! It has some amazing noise reduction plug-ins also.

You can encode the 4 tracks to SQ using tools available on the forum. Lots of info on that!

Adode Audition Here - http://www.adobe.com/downloads/cs2_downloads/index.html
Audacity Here - http://audacityteam.org/

Hope this helps......

 

[mrfloydin]

Thank you for the kind reply. I appreciate any guidance on this front that is offered.

As listed above, I have a vintage Sony SQE-2000 SQ encoder should I have any desire to encode to SQ.

But, to assess whether your suggestions are what I need, let me be clearer regarding my dubbing and archival preservation intentions. I am trying to capture discrete quad audio to a 4 channel .wav file, as a preparatory step to then support their conversion to DVD-audio.

I have a current version of Audacity that I have used successfully to capture stereo audio source media. As you know, it's standard configuration on a Windows PC utilizes a 2 channel, stereo input for audio file manipulation.

I have been checking into what capabilities Audacity has relative to plug-ins to support multi-channel audio capture. Per an Audacity wiki forum they state "Occasionally, soundcard or device manufacturers provides full EWDM (Enhanced Windows Driver Model) support in their drivers, and then multi-channel recording in Audacity should work. The following cards/devices are reported to provide multi-channel recording in "out-of-the box" Audacity." PreSonus FP10 is one of them.

I recently purchased a PreSonus Firestudio Project digital interface along with the power cord and a Firewire cable. I also got a brand and model Firewire port adapter as certified and recommended as compatible on PreSonus's site. I also downloaded the current program SW and the manual from them.

So, I am trying to identify what low cost/possibly free application options I could use to receive the discrete 4 channel output from my PreSonus unit via firewire into my PC, to edit it into a 4 channel .wav file. From the implication above, it may be that I can simply utilize my current Audacity application, but I need more information.

Possibly I need to pursue this via an existing thread on the forum. Any recommendations are appreciated.

 

[Banjo800]

Yes, I understand that you need 4 discreet inputs. Audition will fill the bill and should do it without any trouble. I have the M-Audio Delta 1010LT (8 analog +2 digital ins/outs). It works with Audition as a multi-track recorder wonderfully. Each input records to a separate mono track, or I can use stereo pairs and record 2 stereo tracks.....very flexible!
Audacity, however it seems, requires an older driver. I tried installing the recommended driver, but as it requires WinXP and I'm using Win7 it would not install. I'm happy with my setup so I did not try to force it by using compatibility mode.
Try Adobe Audition......can't hurt! Then post one of your 4 track files for us all to enjoy!!

Thank you for the kind reply. I appreciate any guidance on this front that is offered.

As listed above, I have a vintage Sony SQE-2000 SQ encoder should I have any desire to encode to SQ.

But, to assess whether your suggestions are what I need, let me be clearer regarding my dubbing and archival preservation intentions. I am trying to capture discrete quad audio to a 4 channel .wav file, as a preparatory step to then support their conversion to DVD-audio.

I have a current version of Audacity that I have used successfully to capture stereo audio source media. As you know, it's standard configuration on a Windows PC utilizes a 2 channel, stereo input for audio file manipulation.

I have been checking into what capabilities Audacity has relative to plug-ins to support multi-channel audio capture. Per an Audacity wiki forum they state "Occasionally, soundcard or device manufacturers provides full EWDM (Enhanced Windows Driver Model) support in their drivers, and then multi-channel recording in Audacity should work. The following cards/devices are reported to provide multi-channel recording in "out-of-the box" Audacity." PreSonus FP10 is one of them.

I recently purchased a PreSonus Firestudio Project digital interface along with the power cord and a Firewire cable. I also got a brand and model Firewire port adapter as certified and recommended as compatible on PreSonus's site. I also downloaded the current program SW and the manual from them.

So, I am trying to identify what low cost/possibly free application options I could use to receive the discrete 4 channel output from my PreSonus unit via firewire into my PC, to edit it into a 4 channel .wav file. From the implication above, it may be that I can simply utilize my current Audacity application, but I need more information.

Possibly I need to pursue this via an existing thread on the forum. Any recommendations are appreciated.

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

it requires WinXP and I'm using Win7

For what it's worth I have Audacity happily installed in W7 and did not need to do anything special to get it there.

 

[Banjo800]

Yes, but I was referring to the multi inputs of the Delta 1010lt card. I have Audacity installed also, just can't record in anything but stereo mode without reverting to older drivers.....Hope that clarifies it.

For what it's worth I have Audacity happily installed in W7 and did not need to do anything special to get it there.

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Got you - thanks.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Yes, I understand that you need 4 discreet inputs. Audition will fill the bill and should do it without any trouble. I have the M-Audio Delta 1010LT (8 analog +2 digital ins/outs). It works with Audition as a multi-track recorder wonderfully. Each input records to a separate mono track, or I can use stereo pairs and record 2 stereo tracks.....very flexible!
Audacity, however it seems, requires an older driver. I tried installing the recommended driver, but as it requires WinXP and I'm using Win7 it would not install. I'm happy with my setup so I did not try to force it by using compatibility mode.
Try Adobe Audition......can't hurt! Then post one of your 4 track files for us all to enjoy!!

"For us ALL to enjoy"

That's a misnomer. Assuming we all have PC'S with harddrive.

Not this bozo! A tablet only, sorry.

 

[mrfloydin]

Yes, I understand that you need 4 discreet inputs. Audition will fill the bill and should do it without any trouble. I have the M-Audio Delta 1010LT (8 analog +2 digital ins/outs). It works with Audition as a multi-track recorder wonderfully. Each input records to a separate mono track, or I can use stereo pairs and record 2 stereo tracks.....very flexible!
Audacity, however it seems, requires an older driver. I tried installing the recommended driver, but as it requires WinXP and I'm using Win7 it would not install. I'm happy with my setup so I did not try to force it by using compatibility mode.
Try Adobe Audition......can't hurt! Then post one of your 4 track files for us all to enjoy!!

Thank you again for the follow-up reply. I will plan to get my new hardware set up, then download Audition and begin to figure out how to make them 'play' well with each other.

As I stated previously this will be venturing into new territory for me, so I can't promise immediate or great results out of the gate, but I'll be anxious to see what this system's capabilities are. But I am the epitome of a novice here.

Additionally, I will have to learn how to upload a file to a DropBox, FileFactory or other file sharing service location. Sorry, but I'm admittedly dipping my toes into a new pool with all of this. "It's a brave new world" out there.

I'd be glad to share something that I can eventually create in 4 channel .wav file format. I'll be sure to follow-up on the forum when I do.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Re Chicago live in Maryland (74)


Does anyone know if this is a KBFH broadcast ??

Also,, how many KBFH shows did Chicago do ? , and what dates ?

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Does anyone know if the Bachman Turner Overdrive / Les Variations show is "out there"?

I know that I can't ask where, just looking for "yay" or "nay."

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Does anyone know if the Bachman Turner Overdrive / Les Variations show is "out there"?

I know that I can't ask where, just looking for "yay" or "nay."

Not sure if it was a King Biscuit show , but if it was the well indexed KBFH LISTINGS of shows can be viewed here.


http://www.eclipse67.com/kbi.htm

And additionally BBC Quad (and stereo) listings can be found amongst the various links as supplied by QQ member Mr.Floydin.

http://www.eclipse67.com/grsr.htm


I know of some of the other quad fm syndications (as reported previously on this thread ==

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...NDICATIONS-AND-SIMULCASTS-OTHER-THAN-BBC-KBFH

shows fr Live From Bottom Line, Agora, and Electric Ladyland Studios.






I know for instance some shows from the Roxy and throughout various NYC venues had some quad broadcasts. I often see a couple of boots of Bruce Springsteen from mid to late 70's but wonder if the quad matrix is still intact.

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Here's a couple of questions about the Flash Fearless broadcast:

Given that the album had a varied all-star cast, it seems unlikely that there was a live show with the same cast. Or was there?

If the KBFH broadcast is the studio recording and it was in quad, was the album remixed for broadcast? Or is the original album unmarked quad?

 

[karlkastner]

I looked at the list. So the take home message seems to be that none if the KBFH CDs are quad. Correct?

I was hoping mid 80's Robert Plant might be.

 

[ssully]

So...what ever happened to this? has anyone confirmed that pre FM King Biscuit reels were actually 4-track quad, not SQ matrixed 2-track? This is startling news if so, has it become accepted fact since 2015...?

Given the number of fan and bootleg releases over the years of some of these broadcasts, claimed to be sourced from preFM reels, it seems extremely odd that no one would have noticed that they were only hearing the front two channels (even if 'decoded' into 4).

Have any of these discrete (not matrixed) quad reels been verifiably transferred to digital, and are out there in the community as discrete 4 channel files/discs?

because I'm still seeing (this year) new *decodes* being created/offered for KB shows, sourced from "Pre-FM SQ encoded broadcast reel "

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Just SQ perhaps, but it will be interesting to run these KBFH shows through my SMv2 (they were recorded live off air by me in 76'-77' to a Teac A-2340 in stereo)

ERIC CLAPTON - King Biscuit Flower Hour 2/27/77 (SQ) Dallas, TX
Emerson, Lake and Palmer - 3/10/74 (SQ) *May have been a repeat show76'
-also have an Eric Clapton in Houston 76' (not on list)
-and a ZZ Top around 76' (not on list)