Roger Waters Amused to Death in 5.1?

[onthewall2983]

Honestly, considering what we got with "Amused to Death", I think we would be fortunate just to get 5.1 mixes (and nothing else) of "Pros & Cons…" and "Radio KAOS", mixed by the engineer of Roger's choice (cause let's face it, we can scream and shout all we want for _________ engineer to do the remixing, but at the end of the day, what Roger wants, Roger gets)

I'd be very surprised to see new releases of those on the level of Amused to Death, as he doesn't seem as fond of those records these days. And honestly, I hope with this and the Wall movie coming out and effectively putting that project to bed, he can solely concentrate on finishing his next record. One which I assume will have a surround mix of it's own as it's released.

I would like to see him release a rarities album not unlike the Flickering Flame compilation from back in 2002. He's not put out an album in 23 years, but he's done a lot of odds and ends, soundtrack stuff and singles, etc. It would be a good bridge showing what he's done between 1992 and now.

 

[Cyber 1]

Nice to know that I'm not the only one who loves Radio K.A.O.S. I think it's a much better album than Amused to Death. Plus the K.A.O.S. tour was amazing. I saw the tour five times and the shows were phenomenal. Too bad the venues were typically only half full.

I have a dream blu-ray in mind for K.A.O.S.:

Audio content:
1) Original album in high res stereo & 5.1 (the latter mixed by Andy Jackson)
2) Promo/banded version of the LP (this version of the album removed most of the dialogue)
3) All the b-sides from the era ("Get Back To Radio", "Molly's Song", "Going to Live in L.A.", "Money", "Radio Waves" 12 inch mix)
4) A full concert from the tour (he must have recorded some shows)

Video content:
1) Radio K.A.O.S. video e.p.
2) Promo videos for "Radio Waves", "Sunset Strip" and "The Tide is Turning" (the promo videos did have some differences from the versions on the above e.p.)
3) Concert footage from the tour. (Unfortunately Roger has stated that he never professionally filmed any shows on the tour, but I think there must be at least a single camera reference film shot from the soundboard area. There's a piece on the video e.p. that looks like it might be from something like that. If he has a whole concert shot that way in the vaults, I'll take it!!!)

In other words, Roger needs to take a cue from Andy Partridge and max-out a blu-ray with everything but the kitchen sink!

I've seen every waters tour and ya Radio KAOS was the best tour of them all, well done and the DJ parts work better live, the call in phone booth was good too. The shows were all recorded and a some were shot on video too.
The show I saw was a complete sell out and you could tell that the band seemed really surprised by the great audience response.

 

[Cyber 1]

I've seen every waters tour and ya Radio KAOS was the best tour of them all, well done and the DJ parts work better live, the call in phone booth was good too. The shows were all recorded and a some were shot on video too.
The show I saw was a complete sell out and you could tell that the band seemed really surprised by the great audience response.

 

[rontoon]

I've seen every waters tour and ya Radio KAOS was the best tour of them all, well done and the DJ parts work better live, the call in phone booth was good too. The shows were all recorded and a some were shot on video too.

None of the shows were recorded or videotaped according to Roger. Some brief footage from a single video camera by the mixing desk was used as part of the KAOS Video EP. And the bit about the shows going out "via satellite" was only part of the act. Roger lamented about this and the Pros and Cons tours never being properly archived for his kids to see one day. The KAOS show was a mixed bag for me mostly because of the re-interpretation of the classic Floyd songs. This is before Roger embraced his past and was trying to separate himself from it. It wasn't until he stayed true to the old Floyd material (1999) that his live performances started to attract larger audiences. Featuring DSOTM in its entirety is when he really started to pack arenas and stadiums.

 

[Raving and Drooling]

I received my Blu-ray yesterday and had a chance to listen and evaluate the disc.
The packaging is horrendous so I moved it to a proper jewel case.

I personally think it is really classy and atmospheric. All the navigation does what it is supposed to do, not like some discs, i.e. The Division Bell: go to the pop-up menu while playing the album, select The Division Bell 5.1, the audio options appear, don't select an audio option, move down and select "X" and it freezes! Only way out is to press your Top Menu button.
The pop-up menu is just as good if not better than most discs out today as you can navigate anywhere from the pop-up and it includes the songs.
The Setup Page is really clever as it guides you through the pages and allows you to setup your system. The "BACK" button is also clever as it brings you back to either the menu or whichever program you were in.
The Song Selection menus give you a chance to hear alternate mixes of songs that you would normally not here rather than a 30 second loop that drives you crazy after 20 seconds! Song Selection is somewhat redundant as you can select the songs from the pop-up menu, but nice to have options.
This is a Audio Only Blu-ray so there is no video during the program except the song titles appear for a few seconds at the beginning of each song which is fine.
Saying other people could have done 10x better authoring don't understand authoring because the disc works, the Navigation works, the Highlights work, the Loops work and I am sure the two guys you mention Neil and Ray agree which is why they didn't respond to your quotes, as it is far from BASIC.
Now maybe the video backgrounds aren't great as they don't represent the album cover but if that is what Roger wants, that is what Roger gets.
There are no "Extras" but why would you want to see Roger's interview over and over again. You watch it once online and that is it. That one new interview where he talks about this album has more cuts than a Hair Salon. Wonder what he really said!

The 5.1 mix is awesome! James Guthrie did a brilliant job as you are enveloped by the music. It is smooth and sounds subtly come at you from all around you.
This is not a video game mix like most others where drums are loud coming from the Left Surround speaker which is just weird, and well, like a video game.

Having just LPCM on the disc isn't good for those who don't have analog outs or HDMI but why would you want to hear anything else that is compressed or FLAC! convert to FLAC... WHAT!

Sony/Legacy must have done its own QC and have to know it is compatible with most systems or they would not have released it.
So if your system is so good that there is no chance that you are not hearing anything out of your sub because it is the disc and not your system, really, it is your system!

I really enjoy listening to this album in a whole new way, so thank you Roger!
Have fun in life and enjoy the music while you can!

 

[jimfisheye]

FYI
FLAC is lossless. You'd want that because it is the experience of directly hearing the lossless discreet uncompressed mix. No difference from 5.1 WAV files. Being the non-trusting type - I have verified it myself. And it takes up half the disk space which is nice when your library gets into the TB zone.

 

[DuncanS]

Its not my favourite solo Water's album (I prefer Pros & Cons), but I think the mix (which is not adventurous) improves it as it spaces everything out, spreading the sound effects out. Some good songs, some not so. Sound wise its clearer but............ it must be the way it was recorded originally on multi-track, something missing to me, it doesn't 'breathe' like a lot of the 70s remixes do.

 

[atrocity]

FYI
FLAC is lossless. You'd want that because it is the experience of directly hearing the lossless discreet uncompressed mix. No difference from 5.1 WAV files. Being the non-trusting type - I have verified it myself. And it takes up half the disk space which is nice when your library gets into the TB zone.

And it's taggable.

 

[neil wilkes]

Hi Neil.
When it comes to Blu-Ray authoring, do you consider it a cardinal sin to not include any codec-based streams on a disc?
As mentioned on here before, James Guthrie (the mixing engineer) apparently hates DTS, so that would leave only Dolby (True HD) as the only other viable stream for this release.

I've also said this before about this disc, but I really wish you would have authored this disc as the authoring is very amateurish with images and fonts that simply don't fit the intended mood or design for the album.

It's not so much a cardinal sin as it is a way to almost guarantee you will get returns by not including codec based audio in 5.1 because in the Blu-ray specs we have some very odd choices & decisions.
Because of the necessity to consider backwards compatibility, the format allows the use of TOSlink (lightpipe) and CoAxial Digital audio output but the downside is that because Blu-ray allows up to 24/192 in surround which will in no way fit down these connections in S-MUX mode (which is how it is configured in players) not to mention the possibility of 24/96 in 7.1 which again doesn't fit, the Blu-ray forum decided to disallow all lossless surround down so-called "legacy" connections so if you are using lightpipe or coaxial, you simply cannot play the lossless surround in LPCM.
Yes - I know LPCM surround is mandatory in all players - but it is only mandatory over HDMIor (if available on the player) analogue out
This brings us to Codec audio, such as Dolby True HD & DTS-HD Master Audio.
However these also have their complexities. We all know (or think we know) that both DTS-HD MA and Dolby True HD are mandatory codecs for Blu-ray, which means all players must support them. What a lot of people (present company excepted, as you lot here are usually well on top of the game) do not realize is that they are not fully mandatory. In reality only the lossy core stream is mandatory in surround.
This means that when playing a disc and using legacy connections it is quite possible to have the DTS-HD or the Dolby True HD lights on but actually be listening to DTS Core audio or AC3.

We made a very similar mistake when first starting on this format, and defaulted a disc to play the 5.1 LPCM stream instead of the DTS-HD variant (which was happily present on the disc) but never again.
It's a similar problem with 24/192 stereo as well - we cannot be certain (as nobody will confirm this at either Sony or Scenarist LLC) but we think that Blu-ray also handles 24/192 stereo as multichannel because again when playing over a legacy connection it doesn't work in LPCM (clue #1) and because when adding 24/192 stereo to a playlist in the Sony tool you have to use front left/right of the multichannel import dialogue, so again when faced with 24/192 stereo we now add this in DTS-HD MAS as default with an LPCM option for those who think they can tell the difference.

Other problems also exist with DTS-HD MA - most notably channel expansion. This is probably what annoys James, as when playing a 5.1 DTS-HD MA stream on a system configured for 7.1 through a DTS-HD essentials decoder it will automatically expand to 7.1 by doubling up the rear channels to the side channels - workaround is to encode to 7.1 with silent audio in the side channels. There is still one more issue we face with DTS-HD over an essentials decoder - it cannot handle DTS 96/24, and might do one of 2 things if presented with a 24/96 core stream:
A - output nothing
B - resample on the fly & output at 48kHz.

Dolby True HD does not perform automatic channel expansion, but it too has obvious issues most notably the same as DTS-HD MA and give you core audio over legacy connections which in this case is AC3/Dolby Digital. Yuk. Another huge issue is that the encoding tools only exist on Mac OS, not PC - yet there are no commercial grade Mac Blu-ray authoring systems so in effect you have to buy a Mac to use as a bloody dongle.

So, in effect, what we now do is put 3 streams as
1 - LPCM stereo 24/96
2 - DTS-HD MA 5.1 with a 48k core stream, (default selection)
3 - LPCM Surround
Also with our discs the coloured buttons will switch audio streams - yellow = LPCM stereo, Red = DTS-HD MA & Green = LPCM Surround.
Blue will take you to the next playlist in the navigation column in the onscreen layout.
Since we moved to Scenarist other refinements have been added - you now have an onscreen text telling you the active stream and the coloured buttons take you to the relevant stream type of the main playlist from the main menu.....plus another little refinement that will make it's debut on the THRAK Live Blu-ray in the forthcoming Box Set.

Our main focus & priority when doing a Blu-ray is to make it work reliably on as many systems as possible (we will not go into the whole Profile issue, as even though Profile 1.1 and Profile 2 have added refinements and increased total bitrates you dare not use these as you will potentially lose compatibility with older Profile 1.0 players) and additionally get you into the music as quickly as possible.

Fun, isn't it!

 

[jimfisheye]

And all of that ^^^^^ is why your best choice is to serve music from your computer to an audio interface with high quality DA converters.
Access to all formats at the highest quality.
Avoid any and all restrictions built into the standalone machines. (Lots of format war stuff going on and machines disabled for competing formats.)
Add access to future formats by simply installing a new app.
Complete control and access to your music (that you purchased) and the ability to back it up. Never lose music or access to formats as time goes on.

Avoid the hardware cd/dvd/bluray machines. Hands down the most expensive and lowest performing option.

If you have a post 2010 computer, you can simply plug a thunderbolt to HDMI cable into a surround receiver. It pops up as a core audio device to select. You can listen to HD surround or HD surround + HD video with many free media players at full quality.
Pre-2010 (pre-thunderbolt) and you'll be needing a firewire or usb interface (again with nice DA) and then analog outs to your amps or surround receiver.

Even a ten year old computer handles media serving with ease. This is also the most frugal option by quite a lot.
Life is too short to listen to lossy music or struggle with cumbersome machines.

 

[neil wilkes]

And all of that ^^^^^ is why your best choice is to serve music from your computer to an audio interface with high quality DA converters.
Access to all formats at the highest quality.
Avoid any and all restrictions built into the standalone machines. (Lots of format war stuff going on and machines disabled for competing formats.)
Add access to future formats by simply installing a new app.
Complete control and access you your music (that you purchased) and the ability to back it up. Never lose music or access to formats as time goes on.

Avoid the hardware cd/dvd/bluray machines. Hands down the most expensive and lowest performing option.

Until your HDD fails.
The solution is to set up a high quality hardware system and author the discs to be as compatible as possible instead of banging them out on the cheap.
I loathe buying downloads - there is no sense of ownership & to be blunt you have just as many problems going the file based route as you do the disc based route - just different ones.

The main problem is this:
What happens when the downloads are no longer available & your HDD fails?
This has happened to me and I will post the label response if they bother replying to me and additionally, any purchases from almost all online download sites are going to expire on you - for example I can no longer access the downloads on some of the HDtrax releases I bought.

 

[jimfisheye]

Until your HDD fails.

That's why you backup your stuff! Music and other.
You simply replace HDD's as they fail. Not a big deal and it doesn't exactly happen all the time.

Running backup clones of your HDD volumes is trivial compared to the hassle of hardware players and ending up having to listen to some of the expensive music you have purchased in a compromised lossy playback.

It's also a very common task that anyone who knows how to operate their computer already does.
(And yes, I understand not everyone has learned how to use a computer yet. Perhaps this could be motivation. )

The main problem is this:
What happens when the downloads are no longer available

That means you can't purchase it anymore just like when an album goes out of print.
Nothing's changed there.

& your HDD fails?

You replace it and clone from the backup HDD volume(s) to restore. (Or clone from the main volume(s) if it's the backup HDD we're replacing.)

This has happened to me and I will post the label response if they bother replying to me and additionally, any purchases from almost all online download sites are going to expire on you - for example I can no longer access the downloads on some of the HDtrax releases I bought.

You're on your own with any media purchase. It's up to you to either keep a library or just listen to a music purchase once and throw it away. The hardware players are the riskier choice.

 

[rtbluray]

So, in effect, what we now do is put 3 streams as
1 - LPCM stereo 24/96
2 - DTS-HD MA 5.1 with a 48k core stream, (default selection)
3 - LPCM Surround
Also with our discs the coloured buttons will switch audio streams - yellow = LPCM stereo, Red = DTS-HD MA & Green = LPCM Surround.
Blue will take you to the next playlist in the navigation column in the onscreen layout.
Since we moved to Scenarist other refinements have been added - you now have an onscreen text telling you the active stream and the coloured buttons take you to the relevant stream type of the main playlist from the main menu.....plus another little refinement that will make it's debut on the THRAK Live Blu-ray in the forthcoming Box Set.

The audio and colored button choices on these Blu-Ray discs are very well thought out, and that's also what makes these discs you author stand out above the others in the field.
Imagine if Universal actually decided on standards for their High Fidelity Pure Audio discs instead of changing them up with every disc and assuring there will be never be consistency in moving the format specs forward.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

Until your HDD fails.
The solution is to set up a high quality hardware system and author the discs to be as compatible as possible instead of banging them out on the cheap.
I loathe buying downloads - there is no sense of ownership & to be blunt you have just as many problems going the file based route as you do the disc based route - just different ones.

The main problem is this:
What happens when the downloads are no longer available & your HDD fails?
This has happened to me and I will post the label response if they bother replying to me and additionally, any purchases from almost all online download sites are going to expire on you - for example I can no longer access the downloads on some of the HDtrax releases I bought.

+1 million

 

[zfox]

Stamped optical discs (not burned) are proven over the years to be the most reliable digital storage space. You will still need external hard disk drives for backup, though. This -together with the ownership of physical albums- makes downloads the last choice.

Glad to see this album by Roger Waters getting the blu-ray treatment. It deserves it.

 

[jimfisheye]

You guys talk about hard drives like backup volumes are something out of the ordinary. This has been SOP for digital data since there was digital data. And hard drives are cheap now too.

I've lost a few discs in my collection to corrosion before I had the digital library going. Sucked. Haven't lost anything since the digital archive and I've gone through plenty of HDD's over the years.

Disc's first choice and downloads last choice?
So... the disc that always has some errors (yes, usually correctable 100% by the designed system until they cross the line) and might corrode is preferred but the digital file that comes with a checksum (built into flac files or with a separate md5 file) and can be verified that it is 100% perfect is the last choice?!

Well, YMMV and all that I guess.

But if you want to hear your music at the fullest quality and keep it safe and accessible in your collection forever you just might want to consider this.

Sorry for the tech corner digression!
Back to your regularly scheduled Roger Waters thread.

 

[rontoon]

Glad to see this album by Roger Waters getting the blu-ray treatment. It deserves it.

I agree! Rescued from the hands of the SACD-obsessed James (The Snail) Guthrie. SW could have had the entire Floyd catalog mixed in 5.1 by now. @:

 

[jimfisheye]

I agree! Rescued from the hands of the SACD-obsessed James (The Snail) Guthrie. SW could have had the entire Floyd catalog mixed in 5.1 by now. @:

You mean so they could hoard them in some vault and maybe just release CD reductions of them?

Yeah... still feel cheated by this...

 

[bmoura]

Until your HDD fails.
The solution is to set up a high quality hardware system and author the discs to be as compatible as possible instead of banging them out on the cheap.
I loathe buying downloads - there is no sense of ownership & to be blunt you have just as many problems going the file based route as you do the disc based route - just different ones.

The main problem is this:
What happens when the downloads are no longer available & your HDD fails?
This has happened to me and I will post the label response if they bother replying to me and additionally, any purchases from almost all online download sites are going to expire on you - for example I can no longer access the downloads on some of the HDtrax releases I bought.

That depends on the music downloads store you made the purchase from.

For example, over at Native DSD Music, they offer Free Backups of all music downloads purchased. If a file gets lost or corrupted, you simply download it again at no cost.
(I wouldn't be surprised to see other music download stores adopt this policy in the future, if they haven't already).

https://www.nativedsd.com/

 

[jimfisheye]

I loathe buying downloads - there is no sense of ownership & to be blunt you have just as many problems going the file based route as you do the disc based route - just different ones.

I really miss the physical artwork that came with vinyl albums too. And I really don't have a good solution to offer for that.
But the disc formats (dvd/bluray/cd) are just as devoid of physical artwork with "no sense of ownership" IMHO. That's not artwork. It's a cheap shrunken photocopy of it. At this point, an image on a larger screen is more tangible.

So it really comes down to an error prone disc and standalone hardware players with intentional restrictions built in to keep competitors discs from playing vs. nice clean digital files.

The part I absolutely love is the ability to directly deliver the full quality 24 bit HD file for stereo and now surround and have the exact audio as heard in the mastering room. We have the 'flying car' of audio now with this and it's a wonderful thing!

I sure do miss the physical art and package but I don't miss getting stepped on copies of the music!

Buying a disc format and discovering that your hardware player will only play a lossy version or worse, will downsample and reduce the audio is nothing less that insulting! (Not to mention an automatic return for refund.)

The hardware players are also insanely expensive for what you get. You'd be much further ahead buying an audio interface from Apogee or Prism for the converters. You buy hard drives in pairs (main & backup volume). You'd have to go through a LOT of hard drives to equal the price of a standalone disc player with even decent-ish DA converters.

Sorry for being such a geek with this stuff!
The motivation is simply to get the best seats to get closest to the music as recorded.