Hey everyone,
Not sure how much interest there is on this subject, but I’ve been meaning to look into it since I saw a couple of posts by @ubertrout ruminating about whether or not those classical Single-Layer SACDs put out by Sony in the early 2000s are actually sourced from the quad masters. Hopefully this post will offer definitive answers to the questions/assertions posted below.
Admittedly, I’m really not much of a classical listener, but I have always loved this recording since I first heard the SQ LP. Maybe it’s just the cool diagram on the cover, or just the concept of miking an orchestra specifically for immersive surround that caught my attention.
This quad mix was done by Ray Moore, who is credited with 40+ Columbia quads (see @fredblue's quad mixers listing), including Miles Davis’ Bitches Brew.
I’ve got 3 sources lined up- my SQ LP (Involve decode), my recently-acquired Q8, and a rip of the SACD provided by a kind fellow member. Let’s see how they compare!
First off, one of the neat things about this recording is that the SQ LP gatefold jacket gives you a pretty detailed explanation of how exactly the orchestra was miked, recorded, and mixed.
The front cover shows the placement of each section in the final quad mix. Note that this cover scan (clearest I could find) is actually from a stereo LP copy, only the quad version shows an ear in that center circle.
I also made my own graphic (inspired by @steelydave's work here) to show the channel positions.
One thing that’s confusing me is identifying the different string instruments. Based on the illustrations on the cover graphic, I assume Cellos are center right and Bass is rear right, but I can’t quite tell the difference between the 3 distinct string sections up front (color-coded blue, yellow, purple). Based on the usual composition of an orchestra, I’m gonna assume some there are two Violin sections (first and second), and one Viola section.
Something that immediately stands out to me about this mix is that it uses all four corners and all four side-wall positions, which is against the “rules" of mixing for SQ. Though obviously, mixing a live orchestra in Columbia's usual style would never really work because of the massive amounts of leakage between the channels. It’s not like you can record each section of an orchestra in an isolation booth.
The back cover shows the placement of mics during the recording. The orchestra was arranged in a circle around the conductor, with 20+ microphones placed in strategic locations (with the quad mix in mind).
The inside cover shows this was an 8 track recording, with 3-4 microphone feeds recorded onto each track.
Here’s a general breakdown of what exactly is in each track:
This was all done with quad in mind: the arrangement of the orchestra, the placement of the mics, which instruments were recorded to what track, etc. The entire project was conceived from the ground up for quad. Unfortunately the SQ matrix system couldn’t really handle the complexity of the recording.
Now here’s Waveform representations of the entire piece from each source:
SQ Decode:
Q8- Discrete Quad Mix:
SACD:
Obviously the 5.1 mix (or 5.0, as there is nothing in the sub channel) doesn’t resemble the Q8 visually at all. The rears are much lower than the fronts, and the 3 front channels look almost the same. My initial spot listen seemed to suggest that the center channel is a sum of the two fronts (with seemingly greater emphasis on the brass), and the rears are a lowered volume copy of the fronts.
So yeah, I’d definitely say that the multichannel track on Sony disc is some sort of electronically-assisted upmix from stereo. It sure as hell ain’t Ray Moore’s original quad mix, and if it is an actual remix from 8-track multis shown on the LP jacket, then it’s terribly unimaginative.
It's real shame, because we know the lengths that the folks at Columbia Masterworks went to make this a demo quality classical quad recording, and then when technology catches up to the point when their vision could be realized, it's botched.
The Q8 is truly amazing, but with one flaw: the third track (movement?) "Elegia" is split between the programs. There's a few copies over on 8-track shack if anyone wants to pick one up. Maybe this title will get its proper due someday...
Not sure how much interest there is on this subject, but I’ve been meaning to look into it since I saw a couple of posts by @ubertrout ruminating about whether or not those classical Single-Layer SACDs put out by Sony in the early 2000s are actually sourced from the quad masters. Hopefully this post will offer definitive answers to the questions/assertions posted below.
Obviously Sony had its own SACD program at one point, where they horribly botched two of their most obvious classical quad releases - the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra with Boulez and New York, and the Holst Planets, with Bernstein and New York. In both cases they did an artificial mix from the stereo instead into surround.
So, we've not had confirmation that the Masterworks recordings reissued by Sony in the early days of SACD are actually the quad mix or something else created more recently. I wish there was a good way to make a better determination (I have the SACDs except the Biggs but I don't have an analog setup).
Totally and bizarrely misbegotten efforts from Sony. They would have done fine if they'd just released the quad mixes - with a center channel created by summing the FL and FR channels if they really wanted to. Instead they upmixed the stereo channels into 5.1. The result is that in The Planets the organ which used to be in the surround channels of the quad mix is no longer present. And the Bartok, one of Columbia's most aggressive quad mixes (the cover shows the distribution of instruments in quad), it's just flat and artificial instead of being the experience of the orchestra surrounding you that was originally intended.
I've seen rumors that essentially all of the early Sony classical reissues from the analog era were upmixed instead of new proper surround mixes from original multitracks, but these are the ones where it's most obvious. Dutton has already released a number of discs closely related to these, including the Boulez/Stravinsky disc and the Bernstein Haydn disc - I'm hoping they get to these as well.
Admittedly, I’m really not much of a classical listener, but I have always loved this recording since I first heard the SQ LP. Maybe it’s just the cool diagram on the cover, or just the concept of miking an orchestra specifically for immersive surround that caught my attention.
This quad mix was done by Ray Moore, who is credited with 40+ Columbia quads (see @fredblue's quad mixers listing), including Miles Davis’ Bitches Brew.
I’ve got 3 sources lined up- my SQ LP (Involve decode), my recently-acquired Q8, and a rip of the SACD provided by a kind fellow member. Let’s see how they compare!
First off, one of the neat things about this recording is that the SQ LP gatefold jacket gives you a pretty detailed explanation of how exactly the orchestra was miked, recorded, and mixed.
The front cover shows the placement of each section in the final quad mix. Note that this cover scan (clearest I could find) is actually from a stereo LP copy, only the quad version shows an ear in that center circle.
I also made my own graphic (inspired by @steelydave's work here) to show the channel positions.
One thing that’s confusing me is identifying the different string instruments. Based on the illustrations on the cover graphic, I assume Cellos are center right and Bass is rear right, but I can’t quite tell the difference between the 3 distinct string sections up front (color-coded blue, yellow, purple). Based on the usual composition of an orchestra, I’m gonna assume some there are two Violin sections (first and second), and one Viola section.
Something that immediately stands out to me about this mix is that it uses all four corners and all four side-wall positions, which is against the “rules" of mixing for SQ. Though obviously, mixing a live orchestra in Columbia's usual style would never really work because of the massive amounts of leakage between the channels. It’s not like you can record each section of an orchestra in an isolation booth.
The back cover shows the placement of mics during the recording. The orchestra was arranged in a circle around the conductor, with 20+ microphones placed in strategic locations (with the quad mix in mind).
The inside cover shows this was an 8 track recording, with 3-4 microphone feeds recorded onto each track.
Here’s a general breakdown of what exactly is in each track:
- Violin
- Violin, Viola, Timpani, Harp
- Violin, Viola, Cello
- Violin, Harp, Chimes, Triangle, Gong
- Cello, Double Bass
- Trumpet, French Horn, Crash Cymbal, Bass Drum
- Woodwinds, Bassoon
- Trombone, French Horn, Tuba
- Tracks 1+2= Left Front
- Tracks 3+4= Right Front
- Tracks 5+6= Right Rear
- Tracks 7+8= Left Rear.
This was all done with quad in mind: the arrangement of the orchestra, the placement of the mics, which instruments were recorded to what track, etc. The entire project was conceived from the ground up for quad. Unfortunately the SQ matrix system couldn’t really handle the complexity of the recording.
Now here’s Waveform representations of the entire piece from each source:
SQ Decode:
Q8- Discrete Quad Mix:
SACD:
Obviously the 5.1 mix (or 5.0, as there is nothing in the sub channel) doesn’t resemble the Q8 visually at all. The rears are much lower than the fronts, and the 3 front channels look almost the same. My initial spot listen seemed to suggest that the center channel is a sum of the two fronts (with seemingly greater emphasis on the brass), and the rears are a lowered volume copy of the fronts.
So yeah, I’d definitely say that the multichannel track on Sony disc is some sort of electronically-assisted upmix from stereo. It sure as hell ain’t Ray Moore’s original quad mix, and if it is an actual remix from 8-track multis shown on the LP jacket, then it’s terribly unimaginative.
It's real shame, because we know the lengths that the folks at Columbia Masterworks went to make this a demo quality classical quad recording, and then when technology catches up to the point when their vision could be realized, it's botched.
The Q8 is truly amazing, but with one flaw: the third track (movement?) "Elegia" is split between the programs. There's a few copies over on 8-track shack if anyone wants to pick one up. Maybe this title will get its proper due someday...
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