what's this horseshit - do we have a thread on this

[holland123]

My take on this: Give the guy a break, his heart is in the right place, there may be some surround enthusiasts who just like to play their old quad RR tapes and don't have more modern surround equipment, unlikely but possible. Sounds like he was just charging 10.00 (i did not see the listing), which is probably about his cost. AS LONG AS the buyer is CLEARLY aware that what he is buying is a dubbed copy to Quadreel. Not sure how you handled a 5.1dvda to 4.0 quad transfer, but stuff like that should be mentioned in your description (again i did not see the listing). Cuz there may be a ding dong out there who doesn't realize an album made in 200? Is not an authentic quadreel from 197?.

 

[Green]

I still do not understand what foul fuckery is going on.

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

I'm only doing approved or my own thing now. The time, effort and cost to me is not worth the small margin if it's not appreciated under the big tent here. I took the listing down. To me it was just sharing the appreciation of quad music at an affordable price, for some guys with just quad machines. So my little card table with 15 homemade tapes is gone now.

Don’t you know the rules? You were supposed to get our permission first.

Anyway, that was kind of weird and I was surprised the Internet police didn’t come a knocking at your door.

 

[mlrocker]

I love quad/surround music and QQ. I look at all of this as an artistic hobby. I have a handful of customers who enjoy what I do and I charge as little as possible just to keep it interesting and pay for more tapes, glue, art books for pictures, label printing, transaction fees, and postage. It's not for the purists who want and can afford the best of everything. I'm just having fun with my Akai and promoting accessible quad music to a very small niche of people want to enjoy their quad tape machines, perhaps for the first time in a long time. Yes, I do my own "weird" music tapes and get permission from other artists to make and sell quad tapes too. Lately I've made one offs of quad files I pick up here and there, or done fake quad tapes off You Tube. I'm on the fringe, so it's now my work is called "fuckery" or "horseshit" by the elitist goon squad. Really? My tape player is called "inadequate for dubbing", my (unlabeled) DIY boxes are called "cheap knockoffs". Everything is clearly designed to inform the buyer that these are not original issue tapes, they don't look original, and disclosed that they are re-recorded using on old tapes. It even says they are made for the quad enthusiast for their own listening pleasure. I made ONE Clapton quad tape from somebody's digital upload of a 5.1, for one lucky poor person to own, and I'm "drawing unwanted attention" ...to WHAT exactly?? It's patently ridiculous. Suppose I just sell the box as art, and it comes with an accessory to make it look authentic? I can freehand Clapton's face on it, call it Reptile and list it in a DIY online art gallery. BUT I understand, it's "fuckery". Some people are extremely uptight about their internet club, and they need to see a beat-down now and then to be seen as leader of the pack. I got news for you. Technology is doing a damn good job on fake quad/fake surround, enough to satisfy the non-purist who's just in it for the aural enjoyment, that doesn't give a fuck about the goddamn nitty gritty. And yes I can down mix 5.1 to quad, YouTube to quad, or whatever, and it sounds great. You already knew that anyway. It's not going to meet YOUR high-minded expectations or standards if you've focused your efforts on high-end extravagance. You get to pay extra good money for that, and I'm not stopping you, or calling it "horseshit". Surround sound is only going to get better and remixes from discrete multi-tracks are going to get easier to come by as time goes on. If somebody wants to provide this music in an obsolete format to a niche audience, I guess it would be ok by me. Are you going to flip out if I make quad cassettes? BTW don't boo-hoo me about the artist not getting paid while you listen to your Pandora, Apple Music, or other digital download services. Internet police my ass.

 

[Jim the Oldbie]

I don't have a strong opinion on this particular story either way. Just wanted to mention how amusing it is to see "what's this horseshit" in my email inbox list whenever someone replies to this thread.

 

[wheeler98]

Who does this guy think he is....Robin Hood?

 

[JonUrban]

The forum has always been against eBay sellers selling copies of quad recordings. It's not personal or targeted towards one person. It doesn't matter if it's a newbie or an old QQ member. As I recall, it was the same deal when another member started selling quad conversions and including the original disc with the sale. Same deal. I am sure if you search "fake quads" or "eBay scams" you will find many threads like this. It's not something new.

No big deal. Besides, we have no control over what anyone does anyway. So anyone can go ahead and do what they want to. Just don't expect encouragement from this place.

 

[mandrix]

OK, I get it all now. Sorry for being a dumb ass. I've never bought ANY music off Ebay so never paid any particular attention to Quad.

 

[jimfisheye]

How many people are genuinely interested in listening to artifacts from generation loss that came with some older (especially analog) consumer formats?

Sometimes there is genuine confusion leading to what looks like that but the truth is the listener has no such agenda. I know some of you are out there though! "Let's hear what it would have sounded like from an open reel deck." Or an 8-track, or 17 other examples.

Does anyone around here do that?

For myself (and I believe the majority of listeners) it's SOP to put on the cleanest most 1:1 with the original copy. Because it's the music I'm interested in hearing. Along those lines, I'm also not going to get all that distracted if a copy of something is technically inferior as long as it's the best available - because it's the music I'm trying to hear from the best seat available. The second a 'better seat' opens up, I'm there and the old copy has no value to me anymore. The folks that would intentionally listen to a degraded copy seem to me like they're using music as a vehicle to study the generation loss artifacts from older equipment. And that study is more interesting to them than a piece of music.

Of course that argument is often turned around! The classic quip "Audiophiles use music as a vehicle to listen to their equipment." I'm certain some people do this too. But in a perfect example of lossless formats with high end transparent gear... you're left with just the sounds as heard in the studio. Which might sort of dismiss that argument logically. There's still the bragging rights thing with some folks with no real interest in listening to something of course.

This example with dubbed reel tapes is a pretty clear one where it looks like the interest is in the shortcomings of the equipment. We have high end DA converters available today. It costs far less to set up a reference quality system with HD digital than to even go near some of the vintage tape deck gear. Could someone really be drawn to that because they are truly unaware of more modern solutions? Seems like an intentional study of older gear.

This isn't an argument for certain pices of analog gear that allegedly perform better than their newer digital counterparts either. If it was, starting from that allegedly compromised (for this argument) digital master would invalidate the whole experiment.

So at the end of the day, it's hard to defend ebay items like this as innocent studies of older technology. The vintage gear costs 10x what the highest quality HD digital gear costs that wipes the floor with it. No one is listening to their old reel deck to save money! Could someone be really truly unaware of other options? I suppose one could walk into Worst Purchase, not know the place was scam central, and think their low grade trashy digital gear was what all digital technology sounded like. (And I do know people that still equate "digital" with "CD" and have no knowledge of modern HD.) I think this can only be an intentional Ebay scam though. Holding out for that uninformed bidder to come along and bid the thing up.

 

[edisonbaggins]

jimfisheye, in my own talks with mlrocker, quite a while ago, in discussing the merit of dubbing Disturbing the Universe to reel to reel, the idea was that, there is a small population of vintage quad equipment owners out there who might not have a blu-ray player or a device capable of playing back FLAC.
So, for me, he was offering to get the album out to a modest number of people who might not otherwise hear it. And that evidently has happened.

I can imagine that, if I were the owner of a r2r machine and hadn't seen a new tape to play on it in some time it could actually be pretty cool. Especially if I'm in the camp that doesn't have the means to play the album otherwise.

As for the recent revelation that an out of print commercial title had been dubbed and offered up, essentially at cost, that doesn't bother me at all. Ethically I see no wrong done to anyone and, again, it can actually do some good to a small number of people. I understand it isn't something QQ encourages. Though I confess that I don't understand some of the more extreme reactions in this thread, including the OP. mlrocker made no mention of it on QQ...
I'm with Holland123 this is a live and let live type of situation.

 

[JonUrban]

jimfisheye, in my own talks with mlrocker, quite a while ago, in discussing the merit of dubbing Disturbing the Universe to reel to reel, the idea was that, there is a small population of vintage quad equipment owners out there who might not have a blu-ray player or a device capable of playing back FLAC.
So, for me, he was offering to get the album out to a modest number of people who might not otherwise hear it. And that evidently has happened.

I can imagine that, if I were the owner of a r2r machine and hadn't seen a new tape to play on it in some time it could actually be pretty cool. Especially if I'm in the camp that doesn't have the means to play the album otherwise.

As for the recent revelation that an out of print commercial title had been dubbed and offered up, essentially at cost, that doesn't bother me at all. Ethically I see no wrong done to anyone and, again, it can actually do some good to a small number of people. I understand it isn't something QQ encourages. Though I confess that I don't understand some of the more extreme reactions in this thread, including the OP. mlrocker made no mention of it on QQ...
I'm with Holland123 this is a live and let live type of situation.

So basically if a seller on eBay started selling copies of your surround album on DTS-CDs for $20 on eBay without your permission and without paying you - the writer and the artist, that's cool, right? Because those poor folks who can only play a DTS CD would never be able to hear your album any other way without the "service" of turning it into a DTS-CD.

I just noticed that the folks over at the Quad Traders Facebook Group have the same opinion as many here at QQ. Quad people are very defensive about the selling of copyrighted material. It's probably because we're all old with our old values. We'll be gone soon and then the sharing will run rampant without complaint.

 

[edisonbaggins]

So basically if a seller on eBay started selling copies of your surround album on DTS-CDs for $20 on eBay without your permission and without paying you - the writer and the artist, that's cool, right? Because those poor folks who can only play a DTS CD would never be able to hear your album any other way without the "service" of turning it into a DTS-CD.

The CD/BD of DtU isn't quite out of print and the FLAC is for sale in Jan's shop. So, that would potentially hurt the charity the album now supports.
Once it's out of print it's a different story. And, if anybody needs help converting to DTS-CD format I'm more than happy to do what I can to accommodate.
**Edited to add: I think you have a good point, Jon, about permission. But I also see that as largely a legal concern, not a moral one. I don't think Eric Clapton really cares whether his album is dubbed (I could be wrong). His lawyers might care though, particularly if a mix is in print. If it's out of print, maybe not so much. In my particular situation, I would prefer being asked, though, if no version of my multichannel mix is for sale, then I'm not actually hurt by a rogue conversion out on eBay and maybe it even helps create some fans.
I understand that I'm probably arguing the underdog point of view. But, I also think there is some nuance in matters like these. For instance, used album sales do not benefit artists or labels, while potentially hurting them, because fans have less money for commercial purchases after they have purchased OOP titles. But our society is generally at ease with OOP purchasing. I'm also sure that lots of QQ members, at some point in their lives, have enjoyed a dubbed cassette, or an mp3 or FLAC they didn't pay for. If they go on to support the artist with some kind of purchase, some actual good has occurred. If only free copies and dubs are consumed that is harmful, however.
Good people can have differing ethical views on certain topics. I have just attempted to interject some discussion of actual harm or lack thereof in this conversation, as I see that as primarily important. I'm just offering up my perspective. I am open to others perspectives as well.**

 

[jimfisheye]

I am in fact suggesting that the modern options (FLAC file, DVDA, or bluray) are SO much easier to set up for that the argument that there are some people who only have access to older analog tech is really a stretch nowadays. I might be wrong! Listening to generation loss artifacts might be more popular than I imagine! Those would in fact be innocent activities in such a case. I think it's a stretch though.

Although there is plenty of evidence that some people ARE interested in the experience of older tech. The "needle drops" on some of the bluray releases. Even though the master copy that those analog generational copies came from is literally right there on the disc. Someone wanted to hear that or at least A/B it with the unmolested master. I think this whole "vinyl resurgence" bit is more about kids chasing the experience of listening to damaged vinyl on their parents malfunctioning turntable. These folks aren't chasing better fidelity. They're fine with their mp3's (and might even argue with you that there is no better). They want to hear their mp3's with clicks and pops. Or how about those suck buttons on some receivers - sorry, "EQ" settings (like "club", "hall", etc)? "Flat" is the 1:1 setting. Everything else is distortion. And we aren't talking about room correction here! Forgive the generalizations. I know there are exceptions. I'm suggesting that evidence is against this being innocent study of old tech.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

The forum has always been against eBay sellers selling copies of quad recordings. It's not personal or targeted towards one person. It doesn't matter if it's a newbie or an old QQ member. As I recall, it was the same deal when another member started selling quad conversions and including the original disc with the sale. Same deal. I am sure if you search "fake quads" or "eBay scams" you will find many threads like this. It's not something new.

No big deal. Besides, we have no control over what anyone does anyway. So anyone can go ahead and do what they want to. Just don't expect encouragement from this place.

I've stayed out of this but I just can't remain silent...as Jon correctly stated...we don't control the world...and why in world do some on here try to police it...if people feel that it is wrong...complain on EBAY...not HERE...if this happened on this forum...yes we have a say in the matter..but just because it's a format we like is NO reason to try and micromanage others...and I just about puke when I hear someone crying in their beer about the poor artists that might lose some royalties on a $20 disc...give me a break...of all the things in the world to worry about and be angry with....this is a pitiful target

 

[Snood]

Snood 2 cents - Me know Enoch The Rad from a fun facebook friends group - Me know he is not about the money and it is truly a mega fun hobby for him. He freely posts his hobby mixes dubs or whatever you would like to call them for free all the time. They are quite often very koo and good. A lot of people look forward to them. Me know he spends a lot of time on them and is very proud of them and is happy that he can share his fun with others. 10 bux for a quad reel with shipping sounds like he was just breaking even if that. From the looks of the feedback looks like every one he ever dealt with was happy except for 2 people that thought the post office delivery was very slow.

Snood not think it a good practice to start speculating and throwing out names of who we think certain Ebayers are unless those ebayers want their names in QQ attached to their Ebay page. Also this can get quite sticky if the name thrown out is indeed not the Ebay person.

Snood no like seeing people get mad at each other here - Me gets the the towing the line thing on QQ.......always nicer ways of saying or presenting things. That what Snood thinks.

 

[mlrocker]

I am in fact suggesting that the modern options (FLAC file, DVDA, or bluray) are SO much easier to set up for that the argument that there are some people who only have access to older analog tech is really a stretch nowadays. I might be wrong! Listening to generation loss artifacts might be more popular than I imagine! Those would in fact be innocent activities in such a case. I think it's a stretch though.

Although there is plenty of evidence that some people ARE interested in the experience of older tech. The "needle drops" on some of the bluray releases. Even though the master copy that those analog generational copies came from is literally right there on the disc. Someone wanted to hear that or at least A/B it with the unmolested master. I think this whole "vinyl resurgence" bit is more about kids chasing the experience of listening to damaged vinyl on their parents malfunctioning turntable. These folks aren't chasing better fidelity. They're fine with their mp3's (and might even argue with you that there is no better). They want to hear their mp3's with clicks and pops. Or how about those suck buttons on some receivers - sorry, "EQ" settings (like "club", "hall", etc)? "Flat" is the 1:1 setting. Everything else is distortion. And we aren't talking about room correction here! Forgive the generalizations. I know there are exceptions. I'm suggesting that evidence is against this being innocent study of old tech.

"Suck Button" made me laugh, good band name. I can say that there are return customers in my selling experience, at the $10 price point. The thing is, there is a small population out there that dabble in quad for reasons beyond acquiring the best listening available. For some people it's just about collecting.

 

[mlrocker]

So basically if a seller on eBay started selling copies of your surround album on DTS-CDs for $20 on eBay without your permission and without paying you - the writer and the artist, that's cool, right? Because those poor folks who can only play a DTS CD would never be able to hear your album any other way without the "service" of turning it into a DTS-CD.

I just noticed that the folks over at the Quad Traders Facebook Group have the same opinion as many here at QQ. Quad people are very defensive about the selling of copyrighted material. It's probably because we're all old with our old values. We'll be gone soon and then the sharing will run rampant without complaint.

Two things to say in response.I LIKE QT, but they don't have a leg to stand on quite frankly. I give those guys everything I make and if they want to sell it or share it I have no problem. When I'm gone there will be no more. Hopefully my tapes will be collectible and I'll have a FB group where people can comment on their collection.

Secondly, if I do handshake multiple copy tape deal, the contributing artist is getting a great pay rate. Wish I had more deals.

 

[mlrocker]

Thirdly

Two things to say in response.I LIKE QT, but they don't have a leg to stand on quite frankly. I give those guys everything I make and if they want to sell it or share it I have no problem. When I'm gone there will be no more. Hopefully my tapes will be collectible and I'll have a FB group where people can comment on their collection.

Secondly, if I do handshake multiple copy tape deal, the contributing artist is getting a great pay rate. Wish I had more deals.

PS if you can get $20, more power to ya honestly.

 

[atrocity]

I'm also sure that lots of QQ members, at some point in their lives, have enjoyed a dubbed cassette, or an mp3 or FLAC they didn't pay for. If they go on to support the artist with some kind of purchase, some actual good has occurred. If only free copies and dubs are consumed that is harmful, however.

Going way back, one of the counter-arguments to "Home taping is killing music" was that the most infringing home tapers also happened to be the most spendthriftish in the record stores. It was certainly true in my case! Sure, I bought Maxell UD35-90 reels by the dozen...with whatever money I had left over after raiding Tower every payday.

I suspect the modern digital downloaders are probably not as open with their wallets as the home tapers of the past, but it would be interesting to see actual numbers.

 

[fredblue]

Two things to say in response.I LIKE QT, but they don't have a leg to stand on quite frankly. I give those guys everything I make and if they want to sell it or share it I have no problem. When I'm gone there will be no more. Hopefully my tapes will be collectible and I'll have a FB group where people can comment on their collection.

Secondly, if I do handshake multiple copy tape deal, the contributing artist is getting a great pay rate. Wish I had more deals.

not having a go at anyone or singling any one person out, would just like to gently make a low key nudge that a number of QT guys might also happen to be QQ guys or at least QQ lurkers or vice versa (not saying anyone in particular is either or both but just something to consider maybe, we all know its a small world this Quad game after all) and while I can't and don't speak for anyone else at all, I have to express my mixed emotions (including somethings on a scale of frustration and disappointment) that some kind of light has been shone on what is a very very (very) small closed group which I'm sure would like to stay that way for reasons that ought not need to be spelt out. personally I'd rather that group were not discussed out in the open on any public forum but maybe that's just me being old-fashioned.

i've said it here before, i'll say it til I drop, if the proverbial "everything" Quad was out there digitally, legitimately already, then alternative means of resource would not need to be sought by Quaddies of all persuasions, backgrounds and vintage...

...but sadly it is, so some law-abiding folks grow a beard, chop off their leg, stick a parrot on their shoulder and take to the high seas in the pursuit of that which they cannot legitimately pay for and buy in multichannel!

call them pirates, call them pilferers, call them pioneers if you will.. but me, i call them heroes - and some i'm privileged to call friends. phew!