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Thread: King Crimson DVD-A Discussion

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    Board Operator JonUrban's Avatar
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    Exclamation King Crimson DVD-A Discussion

    This thread contains posts from a previous thread that did not concern where the following discussion ended up going. THAT discussion (and further discussions) can continue in THIS thread!

    Party on!
    :-jon

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Just got the 3 KC DVDA's. I very much recommend them. One thing though, don't get your hopes up for 5.1 mixes. These are ALL remixes presented as bonus tracks. The meat of these DVDA's are the original stereo mixes transfered at 96kHz 24 bit. There were NEVER any quadraphonic mixes of these albums back in the day. The 5.1 remixes are unfortunately pretty typical of remixes; they pale compared to the originals. There are some very rare and notable exceptions here though (this IS KC after all). There are 2 live bonus tracks from the Providence show on the Red DVDA. These are 5.1 mixes and absolutely blow away the stereo mixes (and this is not just a critique of 24/48 vs. CD res). The Lizard album is the really shocking exception here. The bonus 5.1 mixes of the album really and truly surpass the original stereo mixes. Every sonic or arrangement detail of the original mix that was great is duplicated and everything else is taken to the next level. Bonus tracks are generally interesting enough to be listened to maybe once. The Providence tracks and the Lizard remix are truly notable exceptions, so you'll definitely get your surround fix here, just don't anticipate amazing 5.1 mixes for everything and again, these were NOT released in quad originally. Oh yeah, there are a couple bonus videos in the video folders of Red & ITCOTCK as well. Cool stuff.

    re: technical issues
    I play my surround sound with the computer feeding an external audio interface (you'd have to get an insanely expensive DVD player to match the DAC and output quality). So I rip the MLP lossless audio (5.1 & stereo) to wav files. I had no problems with these discs.

    Bottom line: you want these discs.

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    Member codestar7's Avatar
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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    KC and PF, got me laid a thousand times, I owe them money........I've baught all those records and CD's over and over, you think I'd miss a chance to buy up the surround version?...Ha I need no promting my friends......





    How did they get that Pic?...I was sooo strung out.........
    My baby fits me like a flesh tuxedo. I love to sink her with my pink torpedo! Big bottom, big bottom, talk about bum-cakes... my girl's got 'em. Big bottom, drive me out of my mind. How can I leave this... behind?
    The larger the waistband, the deeper the quicksand

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by jimfisheye View Post
    One thing though, don't get your hopes up for 5.1 mixes. These are ALL remixes presented as bonus tracks. The meat of these DVDA's are the original stereo mixes transfered at 96kHz 24 bit. There were NEVER any quadraphonic mixes of these albums back in the day. The 5.1 remixes are unfortunately pretty typical of remixes; they pale compared to the originals.
    I can't say I agree with you very much on this point. First, if the stereo mixes in hi rez were really the "meat" as you say, there'd be no need to have a dvda, they could just be a advd with the 5.1 tracks thrown in for good measure on DTS or even DD 5.1. Neil could respond to this better than me, but I don't think the 5.1 mixes are merely bonus content, I'd say they were a main purpose, if not THE main purpose. And I 'd also say they do not pale to the originals, and are not at all typical of modern 5.1 mixes. I'd think that might put off some of the folks who worked on these releases, but I guess that's subjective. And what does it matter if there weren't any original quad mixes? What is that supposed to prove?

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by wanners View Post
    And what does it matter if there weren't any original quad mixes? What is that supposed to prove?
    The point is that, since we're talking here on the quad forum, these are not any long lost quad mixes but new remixes. Any content on a release beyond the original mixes is a bonus. That's all. The bonus tracks on these discs include 5.1 remixes. Cool! My intention was to point out the positives here. Calling the extra material bonus tracks is no slam; it is what it is. Releasing these albums in 24/96 is a really big deal (I mean, my vinyl copies are actually being retired! Even the MFSL pressing. How often does that happen?) No need for a DVDA? Well, it's the most accessible format* for lossless high res audio (and it's not automatically a 5.1 format even though many feel the need to include 5.1 material just because you can). Which leads me to acknowledging that a great many 5.1 remixes ultimately fall flat. I wanted to point out that pretty much for the first time ever, someone has done better. Again, I'll likely never listen to the original stereo mix for Lizard ever again. I feel this way about many (not all) quad mixes vs. the stereo counterpart as well. Those two live tracks on Red have been in very high rotation.
    I've got to stand by my comments about the 5.1 remixes of Red (album tracks) and ITCOTCK. For ITCOTCK, while it's interesting to hear with some of the instrument balances really dialed in, etc; ultimately the drums sound kind of flat compared to the stereo original. The high end is much smoother and more detailed in the original as well. It sounds for all the world like aging tape issues (and the stereo mix master has survived better than the multitracks). The 5.1 Red sounds like something went very wrong in mastering. The fidelity sounds like CD quality compared to the 24/96 stereo master. This makes no sense after reading about the multitracks being in really good shape and after hearing the 5.1 remix of Lizard. I actually emailed DGM about this (as an FYI not a complaint, which I went out of my way to make clear). Does anyone else hear this? Wanners, we may just disagree but I would be interested in your opinion on the 5.1 Red (the album tracks - again, the extra 2 live tracks sound amazing to me). Anyone else as well.

    So, 3 DVDA's. One is perfect. For the other 2, the main content is perfect. Many of the bonus tracks have the weight of "main feature" material. Honestly, even with the flaws, no one's ever done better with a DVDA release IMHO. Buy these.

    * OK, this could start a war... er, thread in itself with the DVD format war in full battle. I believe we must consider playability on the computer which makes DVDA a winner and makes the Blu-ray data format still a niche market. And sorry Sony, but the studios are not replacing their PCM converters and workstations with DSD anytime soon (good concept though) and neither are many consumers so that leaves SACD out.

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    I have to agree with wanners on this one -- the 5.1 remix is not 'extra' but is the main content. For example with ITCOTCK it is accessible from the main menu via play / playlist. In fact to get to the original stereo mixes (at least with ITCOTCK) one has to click on the *Extras* menu item.

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    Member Bill Sherbon's Avatar
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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by jimfisheye View Post
    <snip>
    * OK, this could start a war... er, thread in itself with the DVD format war in full battle. I believe we must consider playability on the computer which makes DVDA a winner and makes the Blu-ray data format still a niche market. And sorry Sony, but the studios are not replacing their PCM converters and workstations with DSD anytime soon (good concept though) and neither are many consumers so that leaves SACD out.
    Actually blu-ray is very playable on the computer, plus content can be ripped/played back just like for DVD and DVD-Audio. I like both DVD-Audio and Blu-Ray with lots of releases in one or the other, but to be honest DVD-Audio is more niche than Blu-Ray at this point when considering available content, available hardware and format recognition. IMO of course

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Hmmm I agree with JimFisheye about the 96/24 stereo mix being the meat of the release-if not they would have cut somewhere and included an MLP 96/24 5.1, heck, even a dts96/24 would have been perfectly acceptable but unfortunately the 48/24 5.1 sounds like a cd , not a dvda, as opposed to the Stereo which is the big boy on the release....mind you I'll buy them but I am NOT happy about the 5.1 being the eunuch of the bunch....
    ARE THE RES OF THE 5.! GOING TO BE 48/24 or is there gonna be a charitable soul who will shed some light on us and do a proper 96/24 5.1 for NEW FUTURE RELEASES....hell I'd even sugest having them offer it as download!!!
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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by kap'n krunch View Post
    ...unfortunately the 48/24 5.1 sounds like a cd , not a dvda
    Er... what? A 5.1 release sounds like a CD? What kind of equpiment do you use, man?

    Do we have to go through all this again...?

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by Almen View Post
    Er... what? A 5.1 release sounds like a CD? What kind of equipment do you use, man?

    Do we have to go through all this again...?
    I could point out studies like this one which suggest that surround sound itself masks whatever tiny differences *might* be audible between high sample rates. And I would question the audiophile logic of advocating lossy 96kHz DTS over lossless 48 kHz MLPCM....

    But it won't do any good. Remember the X-Files motto? "I WANT TO BELIEVE"?

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Sherbon View Post
    Actually blu-ray is very playable on the computer, plus content can be ripped/played back just like for DVD and DVD-Audio. I like both DVD-Audio and Blu-Ray with lots of releases in one or the other, but to be honest DVD-Audio is more niche than Blu-Ray at this point when considering available content, available hardware and format recognition. IMO of course
    Well to be honest, I haven't looked into the Blu-ray format for a few months. Let me be clear about what I'm referring to. A standard Blu-ray DVD is obviously no problem. The data format is the same; audio in the AUDIO_TS folder and video, lossy audio and certain lossless audio in the VIDEO_TS folder. There's a newer data format showing up that Sony refers to as "Blu-ray" itself. With this format you will find BDMV, AACS & CERTIFICATE folders on the disc. This is supposed to support lossless high res PCM audio (up to 8 channels of 24/96). Last time I checked I didn't see any media players or ripping software, so you have my undivided attention at the moment.
    Do you know of a media player that has the ability to send 6 channels of 24/96 (5.1 program) to Core Audio and off to an audio interface of my choice (ie. my Apogee)?
    Do you know of ripping software that will give me WAV files of the 5.1 or stereo programs (live DVDAExplorer for standard DVDA discs or images)?

    I can let the 24/48 remixes slide here but I would be upset if I got a DVDA with a quad reissue and it was not 24/96. Anyway, I'll be happy if they keep releasing their stereo catalog at 24/96. Too bad more bands aren't releasing DVDA's, especially where a quad reissue would apply.

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by ssully View Post
    I could point out studies like this one which suggest that surround sound itself masks whatever tiny differences *might* be audible between high sample rates. And I would question the audiophile logic of advocating lossy 96kHz DTS over lossless 48 kHz MLPCM....

    But it won't do any good. Remember the X-Files motto? "I WANT TO BELIEVE"?
    That made me laugh. Lossy 96k DTS is not better than lossless 24/48. I think a great many will agree that there is as significant an increase in sound quality from 48k to 96k as there is from 16 to 24 bit. No less of an impact with 5.1 IMO. I still have to agree though that I prefer surround with slightly less fidelity to stereo if forced to choose. Even with lesser speakers. 5.1 or 4.0 at 24/96 on great speakers is really where it's at though. DTS HD is supposed to be lossless. This will give us a convenient way to download tracks in surround. Anyone seen a software player for DTS HD yet?

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by jimfisheye View Post
    I think a great many will agree that there is as significant an increase in sound quality from 48k to 96k as there is from 16 to 24 bit.
    I'd say that going from 16 to 24 bits is audible given the right (quite extreme) circumstances, but 48 to 96 kHz... That has yet to be shown in controlled tests.

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    Member Bill Sherbon's Avatar
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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by jimfisheye View Post
    Well to be honest, I haven't looked into the Blu-ray format for a few months. Let me be clear about what I'm referring to. A standard Blu-ray DVD is obviously no problem. The data format is the same; audio in the AUDIO_TS folder and video, lossy audio and certain lossless audio in the VIDEO_TS folder. There's a newer data format showing up that Sony refers to as "Blu-ray" itself. With this format you will find BDMV, AACS & CERTIFICATE folders on the disc. This is supposed to support lossless high res PCM audio (up to 8 channels of 24/96). Last time I checked I didn't see any media players or ripping software, so you have my undivided attention at the moment.
    Do you know of a media player that has the ability to send 6 channels of 24/96 (5.1 program) to Core Audio and off to an audio interface of my choice (ie. my Apogee)?
    Do you know of ripping software that will give me WAV files of the 5.1 or stereo programs (live DVDAExplorer for standard DVDA discs or images)?
    <snip>
    It's really a big subject; in hopes that I don't get in trouble for being off topic in this thread I'll just point you in the right direction...

    Rippers - AnyDVD or DVDFab

    Players - Most recent versions of PowerDVD, WinDVD and TMT3; Or even MediaPlayerClassic-HC (MPC-HC) with ffdshow.

    Hardware - If you want to send decoded audio (PCM) or undecoded audio (bitstream) to external decoder via HDMI I believe currently you need something like Asus Xonar or the recent 5xxx series of ATI cards (I think the 4xxx cards can do the PCM but not the undecoded bitstream) - eitherway I think the only interface you can do this on now is HDMI.

    Other - eac3to, eac3to and also eac3to

    Reading:
    - Ripping
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ghlight=eac3to
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1192764
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1212837
    And many threads on the doom9 site.

    - Bitstream with ATI cards:
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1179134

    Anyone seen a software player for DTS HD yet?
    What I do is demux the DTS HD for a song from a ripped music blu-ray and convert it to multichannel flac (lossless) using eac3to.

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Sherbon View Post
    Rippers - AnyDVD or DVDFab

    Players - Most recent versions of PowerDVD, WinDVD and TMT3; Or even MediaPlayerClassic-HC (MPC-HC) with ffdshow.

    Hardware - If you want to send decoded audio (PCM) or undecoded audio (bitstream) to external decoder via HDMI I believe currently you need something like Asus Xonar or the recent 5xxx series of ATI cards (I think the 4xxx cards can do the PCM but not the undecoded bitstream) - eitherway I think the only interface you can do this on now is HDMI.
    snip
    Hmmm... Many of these look like windows software. I use OSX and try to stay as far away from microsoft as possible. I've read many comments that every one of the windows players you mention actually downsamples the audio. True? Rumor? Oh wait, eac3to is OSX. Regarding the hardware let me be more clear. I'm aware of these proprietary PCI card systems and I don't want these any more than a hardware DVD player. I've abandoned that approach (continually buying cheap throwaway converters attached to whatever current popular optical drive in a box) for the computer and a nice audio interface long ago. I much prefer to miss being able to hear the 1 or 2 titles that come along in an odd format (or riddled with drm) to having ALL of my high res library compromised by the cheap sounding outputs on consumer DVD players or PCI sound blasticator cards. I use FLAC for stereo (a no-brainer) and my Protools rig for surround (since I haven't found a lossless media player that works for this). If a DVDA is the source, I'll rip it to wav files with DVDAExplorer (an open source app I found for OSX). I never bothered to look for a software DTS decoder but it would be convenient for DVDV discs. DVDA was priority one. Anyone make an AES-EBU to HDMI converter?

    OK. Sorry for getting off topic as well here but I'd like to continue this discussion and get to the bottom of the Blu-ray thing. I hope I am more clear about my setup and intentions. I'd appreciate any tips for OSX software. Or command line stuff if necessary (still a little new to me). Anyway, thanks for the help and links you have shared. It looks like things have progressed more than I expected in the last few months and I have some reading to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almen View Post
    I'd say that going from 16 to 24 bits is audible given the right (quite extreme) circumstances, but 48 to 96 kHz... That has yet to be shown in controlled tests.
    I'm sorry you are not able to hear the difference. It's like night and day to me. Apparently others as well - look at all the trouble some of us are going to to prevent corruption of our music.

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by jimfisheye View Post
    I'm sorry you are not able to hear the difference. It's like night and day to me. Apparently others as well - look at all the trouble some of us are going to to prevent corruption of our music.
    Many things are like night and day to many different people - with and without shakti stones on the amplifier, for example. That doesn't mean that there is a physiologically audible difference.

    To call using 48 kHz sampling frequency for a DVD-A release "corruption of our music" is ill-informed at best, ill-willed at worst.

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by Almen View Post
    Many things are like night and day to many different people - with and without shakti stones on the amplifier, for example. That doesn't mean that there is a physiologically audible difference.

    To call using 48 kHz sampling frequency for a DVD-A release "corruption of our music" is ill-informed at best, ill-willed at worst.
    Yikes! I hope this is just miscommunication. I don't want to attack you for your preferences but it really bugs me to see a preference for higher quality spun into "ill-willed" towards lesser formats.
    Honestly, there's really not much need for data compression anymore with storage space and transmission speeds nowadays. I think it worth remembering that the reason for these techniques was to make delivery possible with very limited bandwidth. Sample rate reduction, word length reduction and lossy compression were NEVER intended to be a "sound", rather a way to deliver music as well as possible with very limited bandwidth. Now we have folks seeming to "embrace" these lossy techniques* for their "sound" and giving those of us who have moved beyond the snob treatment. This baffles me. Ya know, I'll listen to just about any quality if I want to hear something bad enough (bootleg recorded from the nose-bleed section anyone?). Given the opportunity and choice though, give me the best. It really is as simple as that. For me (and a great many others from what I have read), 24/96 has reached the point of 99.9999999999999% perfect reproduction. That "sound" or limitation that people call "digital" when they're being negative about it disappears (it's still there at 48k). A great many studio engineers and audiophiles have agreed that the next jump up to 192k isn't worth the HD space. Anyway, listen to what works for you but kindly don't give those of us pursuing better the snob treatment. Can we just leave it that way?

    *Just to be clear. Lossy can NEVER describe a format, only a technique. Recorded at 24/48 (or 16/44.1 or even less)? Fine - end of discussion. Recorded at 24/96 and then reduced to 24/48 or less? Now we have a problem. I might only ever listen to a certain recording once. Give me the master for that please. Last time I looked a 1TB HD was $90.

    Know what's really stupid? "Mastering" a CD so loud there is actual digital clipping (yes, even beyond the brick wall limiting) - just struggling and fighting to get a big energy level off it - when the DVDA format with 24/96 res exists. And then making the comment "oh, that really doesn't sound any better". An analogy comes to mind of a photographer taking a black and white photo and then taking hours to color it by hand. He's been given access to a new color camera but he's turning his nose up to that "new fangled technology".

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by jimfisheye View Post
    Yikes! I hope this is just miscommunication. I don't want to attack you for your preferences but it really bugs me to see a preference for higher quality spun into "ill-willed" towards lesser formats.
    I specifically stated that it was calling 48 kHz "corrupting the music" that I reacted against.

    Honestly, there's really not much need for data compression anymore with storage space and transmission speeds nowadays. I think it worth remembering that the reason for these techniques was to make delivery possible with very limited bandwidth.
    In principle I agree. But I am not talking about "data compression".

    Sample rate reduction, word length reduction and lossy compression were NEVER intended to be a "sound", rather a way to deliver music as well as possible with very limited bandwidth. Now we have folks seeming to "embrace" these lossy techniques* for their "sound" and giving those of us who have moved beyond the snob treatment.
    Who has said anything about preferring lossy compression because it sounds different? It is the other way around! I don't necessarily prefer higher sampling rate because it does not sound different! Is that so hard to understand?

    And one other thing that you don't seem to understand: PCM is not a lossy technique, regardless of sampling frequency. Granted, if you hear above 22 kHz, and believe that removing the content there is destroying the music (although no one has shown conclusively that it makes a difference). But otherwise, 16 bits 44.1 kHz contains all information below 22 kHz. The only difference to higher bit rates is the noise level.

    For me (and a great many others from what I have read), 24/96 has reached the point of 99.9999999999999% perfect reproduction. That "sound" or limitation that people call "digital" when they're being negative about it disappears (it's still there at 48k).
    And that "sound" also disappears when listening are performed in double-blind controlled tests.

    A great many studio engineers and audiophiles have agreed that the next jump up to 192k isn't worth the HD space.
    I have heard those advocating 192 and higher, and why not, with your reasoning? Why are you now giving them the snob treatment just because you can't hear the difference?

    Recorded at 24/96 and then reduced to 24/48 or less? Now we have a problem. I might only ever listen to a certain recording once.
    Yes, that is your problem. This is exactly what I am talking about - you are prejudiced against a perfectly fine recording because it is "only" 48 kHz! You are staring at the numbers instead of listening to the music, and you are probably also making other people unsure about this.

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    I'll have my strawman get back to me when you 2 are finished.

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    @jimfisheye.

    Please don't take this the wrong way - I am not trying to be facetious or insulting in any way here.
    Can you please tell me why utilizing a 96kHz sample rate would give higher or better quality than a 48kHz sample rate?
    Oh well, whatever - nevermind.

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    at your sevice ma'am kap'n krunch's Avatar
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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Guys, guys, you're scaring the new guy, we're friendly here....
    Once and for all, there are some of us who DO notice a difference in sound between 48 and 96 , that's it.
    It seems that the 48 "camp" is more obsessed about convincing the 96 "camp" that we just "believe" we can hear the difference.
    Maybe it is so, but please respect our views and stop trying to argue that 48 is the same as 96. It is not. ( and here I thought you, Neil , of all people would be of the 96 camp)
    My guess ˇs that the 48 camp really want to be able to hear the difference(YES . IT'S THERE) and are trying to convince yourselves by "crushing dissent"....
    Well, cool, but..can' we all just...get along?
    I myself never thought I'd hear the difference , but ,as I mentioned earlier, it was working in conversions for myself and consequently this Forum's other members, that I heard a MAJOR difference between 48 and 96.
    And I have Tinnitus Perenne!!! How can I explain that? Sonic hallucinations? Don't think so.
    As it is, why then are the Stereo mixes in 96/24 if 48 is the same as 96? That's why we think that the main meat on the releases are the STereo track, not the 5.1.
    It is the difference between cd quality sound and Vinyl quality sound, plain and simple.
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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    hard to say about advancement but obviously the range 96/24 won't hurt our ears

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    [IMG][/IMG]


    Comments?
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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by kap'n krunch View Post
    It seems that the 48 "camp" is more obsessed about convincing the 96 "camp" that we just "believe" we can hear the difference.
    Maybe it is so, but please respect our views and stop trying to argue that 48 is the same as 96.
    No, my problem is mainly that the "96 camp" is complaining over DVD-A editions, not because of what they sound like, but because of some numbers printed on the cover. And because there might be a risk that some readers will start to believe that using 48 kHz (or 44.1) "corrupts the music", I will take every opportunity to retort.


    I myself never thought I'd hear the difference , but ,as I mentioned earlier, it was working in conversions for myself and consequently this Forum's other members, that I heard a MAJOR difference between 48 and 96.
    Please eliminate all possible error sources (there are numerous) and repeat this experiment. Everyone will be very interested, since all other controlled listening experiments I have seen come to the conclusion that the sampling rate in itself is not possible to hear. There might be other effects (the upper frequency limit, type of filters, etc.), but when these are eliminiated...

    It is the difference between cd quality sound and Vinyl quality sound, plain and simple.
    OMG...
    Last edited by Almen; 01-18-2010 at 08:20 AM.

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    Default Re: A word about the King Crimson DVD-A's that are about to come out

    Quote Originally Posted by 0tto View Post
    hard to say about advancement but obviously the range 96/24 won't hurt our ears
    I agree!

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