DVD-Audio backers - What Happened?

[Bob Vosgien]

More importantly, the production costs are low on vinyl. No need to pay for an expensive surround mix.

Yes, VERY expensive surround mixes which, if by a popular artist would want to be involved and make MORE expensive.
That pretty much put the nail in the coffin for Capitol's surround titles...
There's more hope for releasing Quad since the mixes are done and sitting on the shelf.

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

That's it!!
I don't care anymore about anything but Bob's mixes and format they are released on.

 

[Bob Romano]

Yes, VERY expensive surround mixes which, if by a popular artist would want to be involved and make MORE expensive.
That pretty much put the nail in the coffin for Capitol's surround titles...
There's more hope for releasing Quad since the mixes are done and sitting on the shelf.

There are so many great quad mixes that don't need any futzing with. Instead of a label putting out - oh let's say the umpteenth Kiss hits collection or another Who greatest hits for instance - why not open up the vault and make it a special release of a classic title with an already made surround mix... I know, Jimby - nobody cares .

 

[JonUrban]

Great news, Bob! Let's make Rhino the King of Quad!

As soon as word gets out about this one, we'll feature it on the home page just like we did with CTA. It'll be big news around here.

 

[winopener]

Yes, VERY expensive surround mixes which, if by a popular artist would want to be involved and make MORE expensive.
That pretty much put the nail in the coffin for Capitol's surround titles...
There's more hope for releasing Quad since the mixes are done and sitting on the shelf.

As Nike said,
"just do it".

Update: "Ooops, you did it again!".
THANK YOU

 

[Jens]

Phew, I've hardly checked in here in recent months but boy, am I glad I did today and read this thread. It's been the most informative thread I've read in ages (most of all thanks to Jimby) right up there with this one which explains Sony's partial withdrawal from SACD from an insider's view. (Sorry Jon, I hope you'll forgive me for posting a link to the Steve Hoffman forum :-)

The biggest problem that the record companies have encountered is this: the dis-aggregation of the album. Where before the business model was built on the selling of the album unit for $12 or whatever, now the model is based on consumers buying single songs as MP3s. This represented a tremendous drop in revenue ("free money" indeed!). So now the labels are making only a fraction of the revenue from a release because many people buy only one song. The business has become even more hit-driven as the album model slowly fades away.

This is crystal clear, the way you've explained it. What I still don't really get however is: If downloads are such a lousy business, why does it seem like all record companies in the last couple of years have spent virtually all of their resources and management attention to it?

… The fact that Sony jumped on the DualDisc deal was puzzling. Did they do it to help torpedo DVD-Audio, or were they really interested. Their Dualdiscs conflicted directly with their own SACDs (John Mayer, etc), and signaled not just the end of DVD-A, but the termination of their own format as well. …

Do check the SH thread above. Extremely enlightening!

I don't know what can be done to make multichannel music more marketable. It feels to me like where technology continues to lead us goes in the opposite direction. We can do more things from our IPhones, Blackberries and, now, IPads than ever before. The idea of "what can I do while seated on my couch" feels downright archaic. The only place where I continue to even see the potential for some interest is tapping into the potential of the PS3 and luring in the tech-savvy 18-35 crowd that utilizes their PS3 to, not only play games, but download full albums for their "Rock Band" game, stream movies from Netflix, etc. If the same sort of test run which occured with releasing full album downloads for "Rock Band" could be done with some multichannel over PSN (and, for god's sake, on newer music), then interest could be measured. Just an idea off the top of my head.

PS3 must easily be able to handle multichannel as well as high-resolution downloads but Sony has not yet bothered. There are some suggestions along these lines over at the PS3SACD.com forum.

 

[JonUrban]

jens,

The Steve Hoffman Forum is our friend! A lot of us are members there as well.

Actually, you can post links to any forum you like here. There are no restrictions at QQ!

PS - I've read and responded in that SACD thread with Black Elk! Heck, I even created a sticky thread here pointing to that post, with lots of replies from QQ members!

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?12168

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

"Actually, you can post links to any forum you like here. There are no restrictions at QQ!"

Yeah, just know that QQ is numero uno.

 

[Jens]

The Steve Hoffman Forum is our friend!

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted something you wrote earlier in this thread.

I've read and responded in that SACD thread with Black Elk! Heck, I even created a sticky thread here pointing to that post, with lots of replies from QQ members!

Oops, I must have overlooked that. Or is that how I found that thread back then in the first place? I can't remember!

 

[JonUrban]

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted something you wrote earlier in this thread.

Oops, I must have overlooked that. Or is that how I found that thread back then in the first place? I can't remember!

That's OK, Jens. I forget half of the stuff I read . . . . . . and write! :yikes

 

[Jesper]

Wow not here often, but this thread is great!

Thanks jimby for information..

However I do have one question for you..

Now that Blu Ray might be the last optical medium, is it possible to be that optimist to belive we see some music on blu ray with stereo, surround sound, videos, lyrics etc.. Since the space is there and there are no confusing (like DVD Video/Audio players) all in high resolution ofcourse..

Were can I pay?

Actually, right now I am waiting for Dire Straits concert on Blu Ray in 5.1 DTS HD Master.. Bring it on!

Thank you.
Jesper

 

[DKA]

Now that Blu Ray might be the last optical medium, is it possible to be that optimist to belive we see some music on blu ray with stereo, surround sound, videos, lyrics etc.. Since the space is there and there are no confusing (like DVD Video/Audio players) all in high resolution ofcourse..

Were can I pay?

Actually, right now I am waiting for Dire Straits concert on Blu Ray in 5.1 DTS HD Master.. Bring it on!

Jesper,

Sure....you'll see "some" multi-channel music on BluRay, but this is precisely where the issue lies, to me. That "some" will be music like the Dire Straits you just mentioned. That's all fine and dandy but, ultimately, it plays to the same base which bought DVD-A and SACD discs, and that base proved to not be enough. Dire Straits is not a group that attracts new fans at this point, and what is needed is something that attracts new fans and increases the install base. That has to be a younger demographic.

From the numbers I see from my own unscientific process, upmixes of current material draw the same amount of attention as ones of older material. I also wonder whether there's been less of a move towards portability of music overseas than there's been in the US. This also all may be cyclical, for all we know. I've been listening to pop radio more lately, and pop radio has really changed in the past few years. Where it was once very hip-hop dominated, US pop radio has become very eurodance dominant, which means much more anonymous artists scoring one-hit-wonder hits, etc. It just doesn't play towards a greater investment in the music itself, but who knows.....maybe that will turn on a dime again in a few years.

DIY approaches allow me to have anything I want in good surround. The more we invest in those approaches and making them better, the less this all becomes an issue. That's just how I feel, though, and that should come as no surprise to those who know me around here.

 

[Chiburb]

I think the NY Times has been reading this thread...

“It would have been very difficult for the iTunes Store to launch with high-quality files if it took an hour to download a single song,” said David Dorn, a senior vice president at Rhino Entertainment, a division of Warner Music that specializes in high-quality recordings.

The music industry has not failed to try. About 10 years ago, two new high-quality formats — DVD Audio and SACD, for Super Audio CD — entered the marketplace, promising sound superior even to that of a CD. But neither format gained traction. In 2003, 1.7 million DVD Audio and SACD titles were shipped, according to the Recording Industry Association of America. But by 2009, only 200,000 SACD and DVD Audio titles were shipped.





http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/10/business/media/10audio.html?hpw

 

[mch007]

I think the NY Times has been reading this thread...

“It would have been very difficult for the iTunes Store to launch with high-quality files if it took an hour to download a single song,” said David Dorn, a senior vice president at Rhino Entertainment, a division of Warner Music that specializes in high-quality recordings.

The music industry has not failed to try. About 10 years ago, two new high-quality formats — DVD Audio and SACD, for Super Audio CD — entered the marketplace, promising sound superior even to that of a CD. But neither format gained traction. In 2003, 1.7 million DVD Audio and SACD titles were shipped, according to the Recording Industry Association of America. But by 2009, only 200,000 SACD and DVD Audio titles were shipped.





http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/10/business/media/10audio.html?hpw

Hmmm...thanks for posting the link.

 

[jimby]

This is crystal clear, the way you've explained it. What I still don't really get however is: If downloads are such a lousy business, why does it seem like all record companies in the last couple of years have spent virtually all of their resources and management attention to it?

Because it's very clear that physical formats such as CDs, at least for the delivery of music, are going away. They won't go away entirely for a very long time, but they are no longer the way that a sizeable part of the population buys music.

Surely you have noticed the deaths of many independent record stores. Stores that are willing to carry CDs are usually the big box retailers who more often than not use them as loss leaders to generate foot traffic into their stores. Plus it's very difficult to find CDs that aren't in the Top 40 or big catalog sellers. If the music companies had to depend on the CD retail situation to sell music, we'd be very screwed as we would not be able to get the breadth and depth of our catalog in front of the public.

 

[jimby]

Now that Blu Ray might be the last optical medium, is it possible to be that optimist to belive we see some music on blu ray with stereo, surround sound, videos, lyrics etc.. Since the space is there and there are no confusing (like DVD Video/Audio players) all in high resolution ofcourse..

Were can I pay?

The problem is not the installed base of devices, or the suitability of the format; the problem is that the customer base (those interested in buying surround music) is too small to make it a worthwhile endeavor for the record companies. I am not saying that it will never happen, but right now the wind is blowing in the opposite direction.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

With the number of surround sound systems that sells, how could you possibly think for one second there is only a small interest in surround sound? That does not add up, at all!

 

[jimby]

With the number of surround sound systems that sells, how could you possibly think for one second there is only a small interest in surround sound? That does not add up, at all!

I never said that people weren't interested in surround sound. I said that the customer base of people who are interested in buying surround music is too small to justify the endeavor for the music companies. You really need to work on your reading comprehension problem.

Seriously, pay attention. I have given you a lot of information in this thread about why surround music is not viable for the music companies right now. if you keep implying that I don't know what I am talking about, I won't be here much longer.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

I'm not suggesting you don't know what you're talking about, and I do not wish to chase you away. I just think that the industry in general is overlooking the potential. That is not a comment about you, or any individual. You yourself discussed the issues with the lack of marketing and promotion that went into dvd-a. I think we agree on many points, and we clearly disagree on some, our biggest disagreement being on the interest in surround sound music. Can I disagree with you without you feeling that I am implying you don't know what you are talking about? You have a successful career in the music industry, so that alone says you do know what you are talking about. Hopefully you won't feel a need to leave just because of a little disagreement.

The only point I'm trying to make, and hope that someday some insiders may hear, is that there may be more potential interest in surround music then the sales numbers reflect, and interest may not be the primary factor in those sales numbers. From my outside limited knowledge view, it appears to me lack of promotion, lack of available titles, and the confusion from the format wars were bigger factors in those low sales numbers then the consumer interest.

But, if you have further evidence that it's the other way around, as always, we're listening. This is a place for friendly discussion of these things, and through discussion of different ideas and sometimes debate, we can all learn from each other. If you'd rather just state your view and not discuss other opinions, though, I'll stop posting. I don't want others around here blaming me for chasing off an industry insider.

 

[timbre4]

I thought this was covered previously.

The sales of the surround gear guarantees nothing; how many people put all 5 speakers up front? how many hook up only two? How many can't set it up properly because "the wife says the wires are ugly or the subwoofer takes up too much room? How many just use headphones? The list goes on and on.

Many cars would get better mileage if driven properly; but they aren't in fact being driven properly much of the time!

How many times have you cued up an amazing piece of DVD-Audio (or SACD) only to have the recipients ask "where's the video?" Because that's what they expect. Surround soundtracks in movies make sense to them yet doing that with music is beyond their experience. Peopole will only want to educated to the extent that it doesn't make their heads hurt.