DVD-Audio backers - What Happened?

[ArmyOfQuad]

I've never had that happen when pulling up a dvd-a or sacd. And I've demonstrated to people with varying degrees of interest in music, but have always left them enjoying the experience. And then they're left without a way to purchase these things.

Of course, I did explain what I was demonstrating before the demonstration, so that may be why I wasn't questioned about the video content.

However, one does have to question how is it that the majority of dvds released in stores can get a 5.1 soundtrack, but that is just too costly and expensive for music? I guess it comes back to the licensing, and I think that may have already been discussed in this thread. Still, the movie industry found a way to do it. And it seem to have been established as a norm for a dvd to have a dolby digital 5.1 soundtrack on it pretty early on. And people buy lots of them. Not necessarily for the 5.1. How many people really think about it? But they sure do notice it when they pop it in and play it on their properly setup 5.1 system.

It could be the same for music, if the discs were released out there to the consumers that already have the equipment to play them. I mean, how many people think about the stereo mix when buying things? But they buy a lot of stereo recordings, and enjoy them.

I just wish the music industry could be a little more like the movie industry.

 

[DKA]

I agree with Jimby and Tim here. The idea that the industry just "got it wrong" with surround, and that success is just around the corner, seems silly. The industry is absolutely going in the opposite direction. I've said it before: if you think what's happening to the CD is sad, let's be in touch in ten years and talk about our good friend, the book, which is going to be seriously threatened by the Kindles and Nooks of this world. The magazine and newspaper are already pretty screwed.

If there is an attempt to retrain a younger generation in that media is best enjoyed by sitting down on a couch then, maybe, we've got something. I don't see it happening, though. This "3D TV" stuff I keep hearing about seems like such a gimmick.

 

[DKA]

It could be the same for music, if the discs were released out there to the consumers that already have the equipment to play them. I mean, how many people think about the stereo mix when buying things? But they buy a lot of stereo recordings, and enjoy them.

....and they buy them on mp3, on ITunes, and import them straight into their IPods, and they're doing so at a rate which is leaving CD sales in the dust. This is why New York City, the biggest city in the United States, has zero major CD outlets at the moment. Think about that one.

The experience of the average QQ reader is not the experience of the average music buyer.

I get your logic, AoQ. I really do. I just feel like you're talking about a buying model that's very rooted in what the older music fan wants, and that's just not congruent with where the industry is headed. The sales of equipment, movie sales, etc. It's just not going to add up in a meaningful manner.

 

[FredSoles]

The only reason the older buyer seems to be targeted here as the people who will buy a CD instead of downloading it is because that's what they are used to doing. It should not be looked at as a negative. Older buyers have iPods, heck, my grandmother has an iPod. I fill it up for here with tracks from CDs and she downloads an iTune track here and there. She thinks its cool to go on line, find a song, and not have to buy the whole album or store a CD somewhere. She gets it.

I think it would be more a collector type of person, young or old, that wants the hard media. Some people just like to see things lined up in a row on a shelf.

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

Right!
The music industry is marketing itself to the younger generation and what they want, and "Green" is in.
Bottom line: All disc formats will eventually go away and downloading 2-channel will be the norm for the foreseeable future.
Yes, we are being forced into downloadable music and it is convenient.
Hopefully, plenty of popular higher resolution music will come via downloads.
Us older folks, and I'll say 40's on up bracket, are the ones that will suffer if we don't change with the times.
Collect all the surround sound music format discs that you can get your hands on now because there will be very little in popular music trickling out in the surround format.
Will this change in 20-30 years?
Who knows??

 

[georgeshannon]

I just wonder how the auto industry can cost effectively supply DVDA players in new cars but the music industry cannot cost effectively supply discs to play in them.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

I just wonder how the auto industry can cost effectively supply DVDA players in new cars but the music industry cannot cost effectively supply discs to play in them.

Good point. Perhaps DVD-Audio titles could have been sold at car dealerships.

Although the DVD-A/SACD era like the Quadraphonic era seems to have been a bit before its time or could have been just ripe for mainstream success if all the ducks were in a row from artists to manufacturers of equipment, nevertheless, a permanent market has been established. The major labels do seem to have our ear and are aware of the Multi-Channel market such as it is now. So it feels like a strange in-between era before the next wave of Hi-Rez Stereo / Multi-Channel comes around again. If nothing else a “music only” surround mix of an artist’s studio album could be put on a Blu-Ray live concert release as an “extra feature” due to the amount of space BR discs hold with 25 gigabytes.

We need more artists with a vision or with a renewed viewpoint to push for more Multi-Channel as well. Artists are the ones with the opportunity when their record contracts are up to push their music into the 21st century. “The Beatles” already know this, even if the latest so called “edgy” new artist does not and still records at 16/44.1.

Also, I’m not sure how “Green” an iPod or hard drive is when it dies and has to be dismantled with all its hardcore toxic metals and materials. At least with disc media one does not have to worry about it crashing and it’s portable and it’s something you’ve bought that you can hold in your hand. Again, I don’t think there will be just “one” media or device because technology is too decentralized now.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

I think many artists have vision, only to be squashed by the labels. The Flaming Lips would have loved to have released their latest album in 5.1. The label said no. The artists can only do so much.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

I think many artists have vision, only to be squashed by the labels. The Flaming Lips would have loved to have released their latest album in 5.1. The label said no. The artists can only do so much.

Perhaps when their contract is up they can release whatever they want. Also, do we know if The Flaming Lips had the mix already there for Multi-Channel release or did they expect the record company to pay for MC mixing? That could have been a contributing factor.

Which shows the record companies lack of vision. Perhaps to save time and money in the mixing department both Multi-Channel / Stereo mixes should be done at the same time. If Steve Miller could do both Stereo / Quad mixes overnight himself of "Fly Like an Eagle," I don't see why there is not more support for this time/money saving approach with a little pre planning.

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

Good point. Perhaps DVD-Audio titles could have been sold at car dealerships.

Better yet, perhaps, they could have included a few titles to get the buyer interested.

 

[mch007]

That's what I mean though, when their contract is up they can release whatever they want. Also, do we know if The Flaming Lips had the mix already there for Multi-Channel release or did they expect the record company to pay for MC mixing? That could have been a contributing factor.

Lots of confusion...there was a limited edition with DVD which is not DVD-A for sure...

http://www.flaminglips.com/store/pr...on-2cddvd/?cmpid=0909/FL/DTC1/preorder/widget

 

[Jens]

If there is an attempt to retrain a younger generation in that media is best enjoyed by sitting down on a couch then, maybe, we've got something.

Then we may have something coming, but it's not primarily music, not even movies. It' games. Some statistics I found here:

• 47% of Game Console owners (18-25 yr) hook up their game console to a home theater system
  - IDC, Videogame Consumer Survey 2006
• 20% of Hardcore Gamers bought a surround sound system to enhance the game experience
  - Consumer Electronics Association, Gaming Technology Study 2006
• 48% of Hardcore Gamers said surround sound is a purchase driver for next generation consoles
  - Consumer Electronics Association, Gaming Technology Study 2006

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Lots of confusion...there was a limited edition with DVD which is not DVD-A for sure...

http://www.flaminglips.com/store/pr...on-2cddvd/?cmpid=0909/FL/DTC1/preorder/widget

It’s ridiculous then for the record company to go to all the trouble of the special edition when there's room and not include the 5.1 mix, assuming it was already mixed or perhaps The Flaming Lips could have paid for the mix.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

I get your logic, AoQ. I really do. I just feel like you're talking about a buying model that's very rooted in what the older music fan wants, and that's just not congruent with where the industry is headed. The sales of equipment, movie sales, etc. It's just not going to add up in a meaningful manner.

Well, yes, dvd-a is just phase 1 of the potential for the future for multi-channel music. Yes, a lot of people have their ipods and their tiny headphones, and downloads are increasing and disc sales are decreasing. But, discs aren't going away completely anytime soon. And at this time, discs are the only real way to do multi-channel.

But, potential does exist for downloadable multichannel. Flac, windows media, and mp3 all have options for multichannel sound. There's just not many computers with multichannel playback, or hooked up to home theater systems. Or an easy way to burn multi channel files to disc. The technology is all there, just not in an easy click and burn type of way, or click and play. But, as things evolve, much can be done to advance multi-channel into newer technologies.

I've proven it's possible to stream multichannel music over the internet into a person's home, and brought Stockhausen in 4 channel sound to people's homes for the first time ever! I just need to find a way to get it into more people's homes easily.

I figure, ok, a lot of people enjoy the surround sound experience with their gaming. What if a gamer has the surround system, turns on a stream out of curiosity, and goes "woah.....It's Dark side of the moon....and it surrounds me, this is AWESOME! Where can I get more of this?"

The potential is there, it's just about getting it into people's homes easily.

 

[kap'n krunch]

I think that Multi Channel music is still in its infancy despite being (sometimes barely) alive for several decades now.

How many formats have we had it up until now and what makes us think that it will not evolve in as many or more in the future?

The potential has always been there and it will always be there, be it in the form of Q8s or downloads or super hard glass or polymer holographic spheres....

 

[ArnoldLayne]

Does any body remember the DVD-A specification chapter about quality? The one that stated that source should either be a 96/24 or 48/24 recording, or sourced from original tapes with those sampling rates. Of course duly declaring which one was used and and assuring that the multiple channels were properly mixed. We all knew from the start that the DVD-A logo was a rock-solid guarantee for quality, whichever album we'd buy.

Me and most of my friends all bought our own DVD-A player after seeing that advert with a B&W speaker pack, a slick player and a sleek receiver in a minimalist transparent rack, the beautiful couple in the sweet spot, some nice music and a voice chanting "the ultimate music experience". In the last few seconds two delivery boys carries in a TV and the voice conludes with a suggestive "...and hey, it's perfect for movies too".

It was a very wise purchase, since from that year and on many major titles have been recorded and mixed simultaneously for CD and DVD-A. They are often launched and marketed together and can be found in the usual places where we buy our music. These shops also started to dedicate some shelves for older albums that were remastered in this new, fantastic format. Some of those did not sell that much, I guess. But everybody appreciated that the record companies preserved those fine pieces of modern culture for the future. And I don't think they lost money on it, since they applied for government subsidies to handle some of the odder stuff.

[IRONY_MODE=OFF]

In plain BA terms, the music and electronics corporations failed to define the product and did not understand the market. It's a remarkably conservative business, if the automotive industry behaved like this, we'd still have our spare wheels bolted to the trunk lid and be signalling the turns with our hands out through the window.

It still inspires hope that some insiders appear here at QQ. You've obviously given it quite some thought and I can only wish that you'll have more influence in the future. Tell us please, is there any movement around BD-Audio at all by now?

 

[Jens]

I figure, ok, a lot of people enjoy the surround sound experience with their gaming. What if a gamer has the surround system, turns on a stream out of curiosity, and goes "woah.....It's Dark side of the moon....and it surrounds me, this is AWESOME! Where can I get more of this?"

If you read the discussion on the (PS3) gamers' forums that pretty well captures the typical response: Most own just one SACD, that's DSotM and they love it in surround!

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Interesting....all the more reason to explore finding a way to send a surround stream that can easily be tuned in on a ps3. I suppose I'll have to pick one up and start toying around with it.

 

[rusinurbe]

If you read the discussion on the (PS3) gamers' forums that pretty well captures the typical response: Most own just one SACD, that's DSotM and they love it in surround!

Shame they dropped SACD support in new PS3s

 

[atrocity]

And at this time, discs are the only real way to do multi-channel.

I play DTS and AC-3 out of my Squeezebox all the time.