HiRez Poll Guess Who, The - WHEATFIELD SOUL & CANNED WHEAT [SACD]

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Rate the SACD of The Guess Who - WHEATFIELD SOUL & CANNED WHEAT

  • 6

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 4

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 1: Terrible Content, Surround Mix, and Fidelity

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    33
There's this wonderful thing called "Standard Operating Procedure"; a.k.a. "S.O.P." Yes, I agree with you that engineers would do all sorts of crazy things. I have a 16-track multitrack from MOTOWN that has drums mixed down to a single track. I'm going to assume they needed the space. Some of the Queen multis when they were using 24-track had five or six tracks dedicated to drums. Standard operating procedure was to capture the drums on at least 3 tracks in the 16-track era. This granted the engineers and producers the greatest flexibility during mixing. Want more hi-hat? Just crank it up. Kicker too powerful? Pot that sucker down. Did the drummer drop a stick and shout "FUCK!" ?
Well we just might could edit out that part. ;)

Proof? Sure!! Here's a wonderful snapshot of the Doobie Brothers 16-track multi for "Long Train Running". Closeup of the drum tracks: kicker, snare and overheads. The toms were mixed into the overhead track.

But...there's no such thing as "Standard Operating Procedure" when it comes to recording. You already noted a Motown 16-track having mono drums, and I pointed out the Layla sessions have drums recorded to 2 tracks. Unless you have direct evidence, which it doesn't seem you do, we don't know how many tracks were used to record drums on certain Guess Who songs.
 
As for Flavours, as good an album as it is (and I really enjoy the latter-day Guess Who, I think Road Food is now my favourite album) I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the quad mix is a fake, upmixed from stereo simply by putting a delayed version of the stereo mix in the rear speakers along with (if I remember correctly) a little more treble emphasis on the front channels. The same goes for Power in the Music and Artificial Paradise unfortunately, which is a shame, I think they all had a lot of potential from a surround mix standpoint.
While I never cared much for Flavours anyway, I'm very disappointed to hear that Power In The Music was faked, it sounded good to me. I would still buy a 2-fer of these anyway. Sad that So Long Bannatyne was abandoned due to length. If the original multi tracks still exist maybe we could get a S.W. 5.1 mix done? One can only hope and dream.
 
Mr. Dutton does it again. You haven't heard The Guess Who until you've heard them in quad. I have the AW/STL disc as well and this matches right up with it in terms of fidelity and discreteness (that's a word, right?). Love Is a Yellow Rose and Old Joe stood out for me the most, and the bouncing-around-the-room licks at the beginning of 6AM are a treat. Another solid 9.
 
I rate these mixes in the context of what the are, original quad mixes, not current (within the last 20 years) 5.1, or better, mixes.

Wheatfield Soul is the better of the two albums for me. Although, similar, I like the songs and mix better. I’m giving it an ‘8’ overall.
 
Fidelity is ok but a lil lagging compared to American woman n share the land. Content is ok mix is good. I think i prefer the shorter version of No Time

Gonna go with 9 cuz +1 for old 40 yr recording
 
Artificial Paradise was always one of my favorite Guess Who albums. I thought of this as the Guess Who's "White Album". Always like the vocal & writing contributions coming from different band members. That being said, I couldn't believe how bad The Q8 release was. It was someone's "bright idea" to add a bunch of reverb & delay to the rear channels instead of 4 discrete channels (like most of the other GW quad releases). It's really too bad because the 2 songs from Artificial Paradise the ended up on Best of the GW Vol II were mixed with 4 discrete channels & sound great.

As far as Flavours & Power in the music, the band was winding down & it almost seems to me the good folk at RCA just got lazy when it came to the quad mixes. There not even good stereo !! The stereo versions had much better separation than the quad ! The quad mixes of these almost sound mono. .......... Too bad !
 
Wheatfield Soul and Canned Wheat were most definitely 16-track. Confirmed by letters to Jack, emails with Burton and conversations I've had with Randy. I`m not 100% on the "American Woman" album as that was the first one recorded in Chicago, and the stereo mix is standard S.O.P. for an 8 track stereo mix. (Drums in single channel, bass in the other) I asked Randy about this one and he remembered it being 16-track, but when I mentioned the wonky stereo mix, and pestered him further about 16-track tape or merely a 16-track IN, 8-OUT board, he stopped for a second to think and said that it was so long ago, he can't be certain of either. I do have a digital copy of the multitrack for the hit version of "No Time" and it is 8 track. The next album, "Share the Land" is back to 16-track as I have a digital multitrack of "Hand me down World" and it is 16 track.

In March of '69, A&R in New York was most definitely 16-track. RCA's NYC Studios were also 16-track by September '69.
I can find little to no information on RCA's Chicago Studios. According to Wikipedia, they were in Studio B, and a lot of times at RCA Studios, the A-studio got the latest equipment, whereas B-studio usually had older equipment and was updated after the A-studio.

Revisiting this. Just got the Bachman Cummings box released last year. There are photos of various session sheets.

There's a box from A&R dated 9-20-68 with We're Coming To Dinner and When You Touch Me. Slightly confusing, but 4-track and 8-track are checked. 16-track isn't an option on the tape legend.

There are some other sheets from A&R included, but they are mostly covered up by photos, so most of the details are obscured. It still seems likely the A&R material was at most 8-track.

There's a box from Canned Wheat with Of A Dropping Pin, 6 A.M. Or Nearer, Fair Warning, No Time, and presumably the RCA version of Laughing. All 8-track. Although there's an indication of "Use 2" Reel" for something, so perhaps some material was 16-track.

There are tracking sheets for No Sugar Tonight/New Mother Nature, American Woman, and No Time from American Woman. No Sugar Tonight is 16-track (apparently with only 11 of 16 tracks used), while the other two are 8-track. There's a tape box dated 11/12/69 with No Sugar Tonight, Humpty's Blues, and 8:15; presumably all 3 are 16-track.

Take The Long Way Home is 16-track.

Bus Rider, Comin' Down Off The Money Bag, Share The Land, and Hand Me Down World are 16-track.
 
Revisiting this. Just got the Bachman Cummings box released last year. There are photos of various session sheets.

There's a box from A&R dated 9-20-68 with We're Coming To Dinner and When You Touch Me. Slightly confusing, but 4-track and 8-track are checked. 16-track isn't an option on the tape legend.

There are some other sheets from A&R included, but they are mostly covered up by photos, so most of the details are obscured. It still seems likely the A&R material was at most 8-track.

There's a box from Canned Wheat with Of A Dropping Pin, 6 A.M. Or Nearer, Fair Warning, No Time, and presumably the RCA version of Laughing. All 8-track. Although there's an indication of "Use 2" Reel" for something, so perhaps some material was 16-track.

There are tracking sheets for No Sugar Tonight/New Mother Nature, American Woman, and No Time from American Woman. No Sugar Tonight is 16-track (apparently with only 11 of 16 tracks used), while the other two are 8-track. There's a tape box dated 11/12/69 with No Sugar Tonight, Humpty's Blues, and 8:15; presumably all 3 are 16-track.

Take The Long Way Home is 16-track.

Bus Rider, Comin' Down Off The Money Bag, Share The Land, and Hand Me Down World are 16-track.

Very nice! As I suspected, I believe the first TWO albums (Wheatfield Soul & Canned Wheat) were done on 16-track tape. I know that for fact as I've held a safety copy of "These Eyes" in my very own hands. It was a 2" tape box. Maybe since American Woman was done in a different city/different studio the decision was made to go with 8-track. I have a multitrack copy of the hit version of "No Time" and it's only 8-track, and the stereo mix, and even the Quad mix of "American Woman" seem to ape that it too is only 8-track. So perhaps the "American Woman" album is a mix of 8 and 16 track songs. Share the Land they got back into 2" 16-track.
 
As I suspected, I believe the first TWO albums (Wheatfield Soul & Canned Wheat) were done on 16-track tape.

No, like I just said. From Canned Wheat:

Dropping Pin
1 - Guit I + 12 Strings
2 - Piano
3 - Organ + Trombone
4 - Drums
5 - Conga + 1st Vocal
6 - Bass
7 - 1st + 2nd Lead Guitars
8 - 2nd Vocal

6 A.M. Or Nearer
1 - 2nd Guitar
2 - Elec Guitar
3 - Accous Guitar
4 - Lead Vocal
5 - Voices [Use 750/6K] -> Pull During Flute Solo
6 - Bass
7 - Drum + Cymbal
8 - Bongo + Tamb, Plus Guit s/s

Fair Warning
2 & 3 - Guitar
4 - Voice

Laughing Don't Use Use XPA5-5668
1 - Lead Vocal
2 - 2nd Elec Guitar
3 - Piano + Elec Guitar
4 - Drums
5 - Organ + Tamb
6 - Bass
7 - Accous Guitar
8 - Chorus

No Time
1 - Randy III
2 - Lead Vocals
3 - Randy II Fuzz
4 - Drums
5 - Chorus
6 - Bass
7 - Rhy Guitars
8 - Claves + Maracas - Don't Use

And Wheatfield Soul:

There's a box from A&R dated 9-20-68 with We're Coming To Dinner and When You Touch Me. Slightly confusing, but 4-track and 8-track are checked. 16-track isn't an option on the tape legend.

Also:

I know that for fact as I've held a safety copy of "These Eyes" in my very own hands. It was a 2" tape box.

Did you actually listen to it? Or just hold the box? Because it's quite possible that while the safety copy was on 16-track, the original was 8-track, and they just made it on 16-track because that was the format they were using at the time of the safety.

Regardless, even if some tracks were done on 16-track, it's clear that many were only done on 8-track.
 
Regardless, even if some tracks were done on 16-track, it's clear that many were only done on 8-track.
It seems so. I wonder if it were a case of accountants winning the battle? Could have been a matter of needs over wants.

I guess if I ever get an audience with Mr. Bachman again, I may have to correct him. He told me American Woman should be on 2" 16-track. But I've recently come across a copy of the multitrack and it's only got 8-tracks like I suspected. Very strange. I've also come across the hit version of "No Time" and it's only 8, and "Hand me down World" which is 16. Hopefully, more multitracks will surface.
Did I get to play the tape that I held in my hands? No. The story goes I had befriended one of the engineers at a studio that was a client of the small company I worked for when I lived in Vancouver, BC. It was one of the items he had collected over time from things that had been left behind at other studios, or items that were scheduled to be destroyed. You know, how some people have an "I really shouldn't have this" kind of collection. I guess, for all I know it could have been bogus and dude was just trying to impress me? I dunno. It looked old.... seemed legit.
 
It seems so. I wonder if it were a case of accountants winning the battle? Could have been a matter of needs over wants.

I guess if I ever get an audience with Mr. Bachman again, I may have to correct him. He told me American Woman should be on 2" 16-track. But I've recently come across a copy of the multitrack and it's only got 8-tracks like I suspected. Very strange. I've also come across the hit version of "No Time" and it's only 8, and "Hand me down World" which is 16. Hopefully, more multitracks will surface.

My feeling is it's at least partially a matter of hindsight being 20-20. For all of the multitrack pioneers, plenty of people were asking "what do we need more tracks for?" George Martin famously passed over 4-track for The Beatles until I Want To Hold Your Hand, and initially rejected 8-track in 1968 because it didn't have some of the features the 4-track machines had. Most of Who's Next was recorded to 8-track, despite 16-track being available, possibly so Pete Townshend could take the tapes home. I'm sure there are countless other examples.

I wish I knew more history behind RCA's Chicago studios, but I do know it was pretty new when The Guess Who started recording there. It's possible that the rooms there didn't all have 16-track initially; maybe one did, but not the one The Guess Who recorded in.

This is how the American Woman album breaks down:

8/12/69
When Friends Fall Out
Proper Stranger

I don't see any track sheets for these, but between the date and the mono drums, it seems safe to say they were done on 8-track.

8/13/69
American Woman
No Time

Mono drums, and the track sheets for both show 8-track.

10/11/69
Talisman

Not seeing a track sheet. Impossible to guess too, since it was probably only recorded across 3 or 4 tracks regardless of the tape format.

11/12/69
No Sugar Tonight/New Mother Nature
969 (The Oldest Man)
8:15
Humpty's Blues

The track sheet for No Sugar Tonight/New Mother Nature is for 16-track (with only 11 tracks utilized). Not seeing any other track sheets, but since these all have stereo drums and were recorded on the same day, it seems pretty reasonable to assume all were 16-track.

There's a track sheet for Take The Long Way Home, recorded on 3/10/70 for the aborted follow-up to American Woman. As expected it's 16-track, but it's worth noting that 16-track sheets apparently still weren't being printed yet; it's two 8-track sheets taped together, with the headings for 9-16 written in by hand.

By the time of the7/8/70 session for Bus Rider, Comin' Down Off The Money Bag, and Share The Land, the track sheets were printed as 16-track. Actually (looking on the next page) as early as the 6/17/70 session for Hand Me Down World.

Unfortunately, beyond what I previously posted, anything else for Wheatfield Soul and Canned Wheat is either not reproduced at all or is partially covered up by other photos.

I did interview Brian Christian, and looking back at the transcript, I see he did touch on 16-track a bit, regarding mixing Canned Wheat:

"So [Jack Richardson] shows up [at RCA in Chicago], thinking I’m going to be there, I’m not, and he says to my boss, “I don’t see sixteen-track anywhere”. Oh he says “We don’t have one yet ‘cause the studio is brand new”.

Ours was on order. He says “Okay so when are you gonna get it?” and he said “Can I meet Christian?” and he said “He’s not here”, “Okay” he said. Jack left and then he came back two or three weeks later and we sat down in one of the mix rooms and I started playing with this tape."

That would seem to indicate that at least some tracks on Canned Wheat were 16-track, but as previously noted, clearly not all of them. And we didn't get into further details, such as why the initial American Woman sessions were 8-track. My guess is those details are probably lost to the sands of time, but maybe I'll see if he can remember anything.
 
I wouldn't necessarily take this as the gospel, but another bit of information. Jack Richardson in the liner notes to Track Record:

"These Eyes was recorded in Sept. of 1968 in Studio A-2 at A&R Recording Studios on 7th Avenue in New York. David Greene was the recording engineer and the album was Wheatfield Soul. It was the first recording in A-2, a brand new studio, and Phil Ramone, one of the owners, had suggested that we would not bill us for the studio if the session didn't turn out. Needless to say, we paid the bill. The session was an eight track date and took seven days."

Oh, just noticed this in the liner notes to the Iconoclassic Wheatfield Soul:

"Recording on an Ampex 8-track machine in the brand new untested A-2 studio ("We were an experiment," laughs Jim Kale), the sessions moved at breakneck speed."
 
Additional point of clarification:

If you listen to the Quad mix of "These Eyes", the horns and strings are separated. Also, there's a xylophone or vibraphone that appears here and there as well.

I'm listening to the quad mix on the Vocalion SACD now. The horns/strings/vibe seem to be 100% mono. No separation between those elements.
 
Additional point of clarification:



I'm listening to the quad mix on the Vocalion SACD now. The horns/strings/vibe seem to be 100% mono. No separation between those elements.
What do you mean? The early Guess Who's are among the most immersive quad's ever. Individual instruments were likely recorded in mono and sometimes elements could have been mixed on top of each other as they had (I believe) only eight tracks to work with. Not sure if that's what you are getting at! By and large though I find these to be fantastic mixes! Lot's of separation "discrete" effects all the way around!
 
What do you mean? The early Guess Who's are among the most immersive quad's ever. Individual instruments were likely recorded in mono and sometimes elements could have been mixed on top of each other as they had (I believe) only eight tracks to work with. Not sure if that's what you are getting at! By and large though I find these to be fantastic mixes! Lot's of separation "discrete" effects all the way around!

We were talking about how These Eyes was recorded. I indicated that it seemed like 8-track since the orchestra was in mono:

Both studios? While the orchestral overdubs were done in A-1, most of the album was tracked in A-2. I'm listening to These Eyes now, and there doesn't seem to be evidence of more than 8 tracks used:

electric piano (right)
electric guitar (left)
bass (center)
drums (left)
drums (right)
acoustic guitar (left)
vocal (center)
orchestra (center)

While I suppose not impossible, it seems unlikely the whole orchestra would have been mixed dead center if it had been recorded to more than a single track.

And it was indicated that in the quad mix the strings and horns were separated, which would indicate they were recorded on separate tracks (and thus recorded on 16-track):

If you listen to the Quad mix of "These Eyes", the horns and strings are separated. Also, there's a xylophone or vibraphone that appears here and there as well.

But the strings and horns aren't separated on the quad mix.
 
We were talking about how These Eyes was recorded. I indicated that it seemed like 8-track since the orchestra was in mono:



And it was indicated that in the quad mix the strings and horns were separated, which would indicate they were recorded on separate tracks (and thus recorded on 16-track):



But the strings and horns aren't separated on the quad mix.
Are they separated in the stereo mix? I don't usually dwell on such things but rely on my overall impression of the mix, I would have to give it a listen to check just what you are talking about. With the Guess Who I tend to focus my attention more on the performance. Mono is how I first heard most of these tracks!
 
Are they separated in the stereo mix? I don't usually dwell on such things but rely on my overall impression of the mix, I would have to give it a listen to check just what you are talking about. With the Guess Who I tend to focus my attention more on the performance. Mono is how I first heard most of these tracks!

No, as I pointed out, they are all mixed together in stereo. And in quad. No separation of the strings/horns/vibes.
 
So they must have "bounced" some tracks with the master to save space for more overdubs.

I don't think any bouncing would have been necessary:

Both studios? While the orchestral overdubs were done in A-1, most of the album was tracked in A-2. I'm listening to These Eyes now, and there doesn't seem to be evidence of more than 8 tracks used:

electric piano (right)
electric guitar (left)
bass (center)
drums (left)
drums (right)
acoustic guitar (left)
vocal (center)
orchestra (center)

While I suppose not impossible, it seems unlikely the whole orchestra would have been mixed dead center if it had been recorded to more than a single track.

Seems like it was a probably a straightforward 8-track recording.
 
I don't think any bouncing would have been necessary:



Seems like it was a probably a straightforward 8-track recording.
If there needed additional tracks for vocal or instrumental parts, they would certainly need to bounce something. Could have just been a production decision based on the fact that strings and horns would have been recorded in a session separately from basic tracking, the rhythm section [typically the first parts recorded], band parts, vocals [which would typically come at the end].
 
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