INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

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Hi All

Perhaps Richard could correct me but I think his concerns with respect to the phase shifts and the effect on image etc are related to the "Odaka" document figure 6 where a bundle of phase shifts are used on each output. If this is correct I would like to assure you all that our proposed system has no resemblance to that. We are using some phase shifts to creates scalar steering factors that are applied to our SQ matrix decode equation. The scalar steering ratios do not in anyway effect phasing.

I thank Richard for alerting us to this and I agree it would be a silly method!

Regards

Chucky
 
Hullo all. David here.

Just surfacing from the horror that is the SQ system (I'm starting to understand why Michael Gerzon was so annoyed by it all) to let you know it's coming along well enough.
I think I've nailed down the major parts, will hopefully get to listen to the very rough first cut shortly, and properly on Monday, then it'll be down to tuning and tweaking.

Cheers
~David.
 
Hi All

Here is "evidence" that we are on the path. This is a censored conversation over the internet between Dave and myself (I am away from the office)

me: Need to know..........

David: que?

me: SQ, sounds perfect?

David: The numbers look good but the system is not spitting out sound. I may be pushing it too hard.
oh, wait,.
Sent at 4:33 PM on Friday

me: F#%$ER!!!

David: hush

me: Humph

David: F#%k, gonna miss the bus.

me: f#%k the bus

David: shush

me: you need a walk tubby

David: No, I'm going to the Astor tonight.
Long story short, it sounds good.
It'll need tweaking but so far I like it.
I think the rear channels aren't scaling properly,

me: oh that changes everything, Blues brothers is more important than SQ

David: Quite

Anyway. See above. Very promising first listen.

me: Barely adaquate, sod off

David: Oh you'll change your mind on Monday.
TTFN
Sent at 4:37 PM on Friday

David is offline. Messages you send will be delivered when David comes online.

That about as live on line feedback as you get!

Regards

Chucky
 
Hullo all. David here.

Just surfacing from the horror that is the SQ system (I'm starting to understand why Michael Gerzon was so annoyed by it all) to let you know it's coming along well enough.
I think I've nailed down the major parts, will hopefully get to listen to the very rough first cut shortly, and properly on Monday, then it'll be down to tuning and tweaking.

Cheers
~David.

SQ horror? Hmm, hadn't heard that story before..... :)
 
It's actually a lot better, and more managable, than you think. The important thing is to understand it, and what's needed to get it to work correctly, otherwise you'll be banging your head against a brick wall for ever more.
 
I still have my fingers and toes crossed for this thing. It sounds like they may be making real progress. Can't wait till rusty gets a test unit to listen too. I'm glad you aren't rushing it though. I'm grateful to your dedication to quality. Dark Side of the Moon SQ is on standby.
 
Hi Chuck and David, not to hijack this thread, but are you guys also working on a pre amp with built in surround master? I remember reading that somewhere.

I am thinking about purchasing the surround master, for 2ch to 5.1 playback but don't want to unplug my cables all the time, so a pre amp might work better for me. Thanks for your reply.
 
Hi Chuck and David, not to hijack this thread, but are you guys also working on a pre amp with built in surround master? I remember reading that somewhere.

I am thinking about purchasing the surround master, for 2ch to 5.1 playback but don't want to unplug my cables all the time, so a pre amp might work better for me. Thanks for your reply.

if Involve were to introduce a model that had HDMI Out as well as multiCh analogue, I've got a spare HDMI slot..! ;)
 
Hi Robert and Fredblue

Yes we are a few months away from a "studio" and commercial encoder/ decoder/ preamp. Currently it has 4 inputs CD, AUX1, AUX2, Bluetooth, LCD display, individual level adjusts, balanced inputs/ outputs on studio unit with XLR's. The HDMI thing is unlikely at the moment .....its just not simple. The big boys created HDMI as a bit of a mates club with a $10K license barrier just to get started.

The unit will look very nice in both rack mount and more conventional metal enclosure for the consumer version. Our real interest is still in our INVOLVE encode format.

regards

Chucky
 
Hi Robert and Fredblue

Yes we are a few months away from a "studio" and commercial encoder/ decoder/ preamp. Currently it has 4 inputs CD, AUX1, AUX2, Bluetooth, LCD display, individual level adjusts, balanced inputs/ outputs on studio unit with XLR's. The HDMI thing is unlikely at the moment .....its just not simple. The big boys created HDMI as a bit of a mates club with a $10K license barrier just to get started.

The unit will look very nice in both rack mount and more conventional metal enclosure for the consumer version. Our real interest is still in our INVOLVE encode format.

regards

Chucky

Thanks for the response, Chucky! Much appreciated. The pre-amp sounds very cool! (y)

The HDMI things no biggy, I can workaround it (I have an old component video switcher which has 4 sets of switchable Pr, Pb, Y, L&R Audio & Coax Digital outs, so its essentially a 4 x 6-RCA/Phono-In to 1 x 6-RCA/Phono-Out Box, which I can drag out of retirement and use to select between any 1 of 4 different 6-channel analogue sources, including your Involve Box, when I get it.).
 
Since Fredblue started creating a wish list on the pre-amp, here's mine... :)
I do almost all of my listening through a PC with an Asus Essence ST soundcard with a 5.1 analog output daughter card. I rip my 5.1 SACDs and DVD-A's to multichannel flac and my standard CDs to stereo flac files. I'm using JRiver Media Center to play them back. So I essentially have a single input source that is either analog 5.1 or analog stereo depending on the file type I'm playing. What I'd love to see is a 5.1 analog input on your box with a pass through option. That way I wouldn't need to come up with a scenario that involves a switcher and Y-cables to fit your box into my system. The absolute ideal fantasy would be that your device auto-sense the input as either stereo or multichannel and process it if it were stereo and pass through if it were multichannel. Just some thoughts... Please keep us posted on the pre-amp option - I'm currently planning on buying the original version of the Surround Master once I get back from our July vacation and I have some spare money. Part of that plan involves finding a Zektor switcher as well. Thanks for opportunity to interact on such things!
 
Hello All,

Bit of an update for you. If you prefer the TLDR: The SQ version of Surround Master won't ship out before Sunday as we'd hoped, but we reached a milestone that was eluding us and we're now fine-tuning. We don't want to send this out half baked.

Now the long version:

Firstly, the bad news. It doesn't look like we'll be shipping the SQ version of the Surround Master before the end of Q2 2013. Mostly on account of Q3 starting after this weekend, and I did actually schedule some sleep for this week. No really, I've lost sleep trying to get my head around some of SQ. Also stared long and hard at the walls of my shower in the morning thinking about 45 degree phase shifts - make of that what you will, my housemates don't seem too impressed with my shower-times though, and they couldn't care less about 45-degree anythings.

Now the good news. We're almost there. What I ended up creating this week as a result of applying and testing a stupid number of different methods, is amazingly clear separation, but the downside is - having spent so much time on the SQ part of the system, I got too focused in trying to make actual SQ sound amazing which, unfortunately thanks to the nature of the beast, is a lost cause. I take responsibility for that - I didn't get Charlie involved in the foundation part of the creation because he's had so many things to do the last few months (We call him "Miscellaneous Man" at the moment) - and being so spoiled by how good our Involve decode works, I was expecting to be able to make it better than it's capable of. So when I got Charlie involved late this week he surprised me by saying it sounded how he expected at this point, and that the second part of the integration would help solve a lot of the issues. Sigh. I should have asked him sooner.

What can I say? Mea Culpa. So what we ended up with is something that sounded as good as it would have sounded back then, and all the problems that entails.
Needless to say, I'm not a huge fan of SQ. But Charlie and I, having reached the pits of despair and waded through the murky depths, spent the last few days of this week getting it to a workable point, and then patched it in with the Involve part of the equation (I know I know, it sounds like our "eleven herbs and spices" - I apologize for the very "marketing" sound of that.)
The result which I got to hear today (Friday) just before the day ended, was much better. What I believe we have is the ground level of our system, which is good enough to listen to and poke at. From here we'll start tightening up the numbers in various points, and seeing just how far we can push it before it gives in to the limitations of the mathematics. But at least there is light at the end of the tunnel now, and it's not an oncoming train.

We'll probably start comparing it with RustyandI's equipment next week or thereabouts, considering he's just up the road, relatively speaking.

Oh, and TOTALLY off topic, last week I visited the Astor theater here in Melbourne (The last bastion of old Art Deco theater houses, and the only ones with equipment capable of playing anything from mono to four track magnetic to fully digital 4K), and watched the Blues Brothers - they unearthed a rare print from 1984, with a few scratches but mostly intact, on good quality film with low colour degradation, and most importantly 4-track magnetic sound - very rare for this film, most prints were single track at best. It's one of the richest sound experiences I've heard in a cinema in a long time. And the movie still holds up wonderfully.

I'll update a bit more frequently next week as we make progress.

~David
 
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Quick update:

We're taking the current version around to RustyandI's place tomorrow to have a listen, compare it to Tate, and see how it's faring at this point. Should be interesting to listen. We'll leave the unit with him to do some additional listening. It's worth noting that we're achieving around 20dB separation without too much trouble - we found a couple of real problem recordings (Lynn Anderson) but they're a good comparison. Overall it's very listenable, and I was hearing interesting things in the SQ recording of DSOTM.
Test tones that hit all 8 points in the room are quite clear and separated. It's also worth noting that theoretically we could push that out to 40dB but at that point I think the pumping/surging nature of SQ would become more than a little apparent. Anything beyond 12dB is a bit of a pissing competition anyway, and we'd rather it sounds good than looks good on paper, if you know what I mean.

Cheers
~David.
 
Great news David - sounds as though it's all begining to come together after all the hard work!
 
[U]Rome was not built in a Day[/U]
The SQ Decoder also has more work to do
Dave thinks it is just to do with some Maths (what ever that is)
But it is getting there
We played Rock on (David Essex) a lot of rear front action
there seems to be a lower level on left side and less separation on the left side
he is going back to work on it and hopefully coming back next week
 
Hello all.

As said above, I'm pretty sure I cocked up a set of numbers in the final output stage. Sigh. I have 12 to choose from, so it's possible.
Also looking at a steering incongruity on the left center not hitting front left properly.
Minor level fixes to rear as well.
Finally, sonically it was sounding great, so I think I can push the separation out further.
With any luck, take two will be most of the way there.

Cheer
David.
 
[U]Rome was not built in a Day[/U]
The SQ Decoder also has more work to do
Dave thinks it is just to do with some Maths (what ever that is)
But it is getting there
We played Rock on (David Essex) a lot of rear front action
there seems to be a lower level on left side and less separation on the left side
he is going back to work on it and hopefully coming back next week

Thanks for the update. It sounds like the finish line is drawing nearer....
 
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