Is there a tutorial?

[ClarkNovak]

I'm teaching myself how to author DVD-A discs using Discwelder, and it's going pretty well. But I want to add DTS and DD tracks to make a "universal" disc, and having poked through most of the threads here, I've seen Neil's warning about having the correctly generated VIDEO_TS files to import. To that end I've obtained a copy of DVD-Lab Pro.

What I'm wondering is, is there a tutorial or walk-through on exactly what to do to create the DVD-Video files to import into Discwelder? Can those of you already conversant in this art offer any hints, tips or suggestions?

Much obliged

 

[JonUrban]

It would be cool if someone could post a guide. This is something I've never done, but always wondered about. Although for me, the DVD-A only is all I'd ever really need (with 2 Acura's! )

 

[mandrix]

There is a guide on DTSAC3.com on making a "hybrid" DVDA. You will have to use something such as DVD LAB PRO or DVD Maestro to make the video TS, which will include your DTS and either AC3 or Stereo files. The MLP portion will be done , of course, with DiscWelder Chrome. (Or Sonic's App, dunno anything about it).
After authoring the DVD portion, import the TS into DiscWelder.
It's tedious to do at first, but in the end it's not rocket science.
These type discs will play on either a regular DVD player (DTS/AC3/STEREO) or a univeral/DVDA player (MLP).
HTH

boondocks

 

[neil wilkes]

Guide for Hybrids?
This means authoring your Video_TS without using the Abstraction Layer (in DLP or Scenarist on PC, Creator or Fusion on Mac. No other apps will do the job, Maestro included as the Abstraction Layers get in the way).
DLP requires the use of what is called "Production Stable" release, based on the 2.3.1 build. Later builds have appalling issues in Slideshows.

Anyway - here is the list of restrictions you face in the Video_TS.

VIDEO_TS Restrictions for Video Links



When a VIDEO_TS is used for a Video, the following restrictions should be observed for the contents of the VIDEO_TS:

VMG (Video Manager)


The Video Manager is used when the disc is played in a DVD-Video player. The following VMG restrictions should be observed:

· No Region Management.
· No Parental Management.
· Text Data Manager should not be specified.

VTS (Video Title Set)


1/. VTS titles shall be linked from the DVD-Audio playlist.

2/. A Video Title may be specified in conjunction with an Audio Title for a playlist item. In this case, the Video Title will be played on video-capable players, and the Audio Title will be played on audio-only players (e.g. portable or car players).

3/. If only a Video Title is specified for a playlist item, the title will only be accessible from a video-capable player.

4/. The Video Title (and VTS to which it belongs) should observe the following restrictions:

· A Title shall consist of one Program Chain (PGC), and should not be a PGC Block. The Title shall be set for Sequential playback.
· Pre-Command, Post-Command, and Cell-Command shall not be specified, except for the “CallSS from TT_DOM (title domain) to VMGM_DOM (vmg domain)” in the Post-Command area. This command will only used by DVD-Video players, and ignored by DVD-Audio players.
· Availability control of User Operations, Audio Streams, and Sub-picture Streams should not be specified. These features will always be available.
· Cell Stills and VOBU Stills shall not be defined.
· Number of audio streams shall be 1 or 2, with one stream being Linear PCM or AC-3 (if playlist title only consists of Video Title).
· Cell blocks (e.g. different Angles) may be specified if the playlist title consists of only the Video Title.
· Some Button Commands are restricted. The available commands for a Video Title are LinkPGCN, LinkCN, LinkSIns(PG, C), COMP_LinkPGN, COMP_LinkCN, COMP_LinkSIns(PG, C), SetSTN, Set, COMP_SetSTN, SetSTN_LinkPGN, SetSTN_LinkCN, SetSTN_LinkSIns(PG, C), Set_LinkPGN, Set_LinkCN, Set_LinkSIns(PG, C)
· The Navigation Timer should not be used.

Contact your video authoring software manufacturer for more details on how these restrictions map to the features of the authoring software.

This essentially means that in DLP, you cannot use any of the drag & drop, or the automatic linking from the connections window.
Now, having just said that it is still possible to use certain links, as some stuff is outside the abstraction layer (There are details in the DLP manual).
What you must do is this:
1 - First Play & Title options need to be manually set to go to the root of the initial VTS.
2 - You must not use SetSTN (audio=x) commands in menu space, only in title space.
3 - You cannot have more than 2 audio streams in any VTS. (CHROME warning. You will *not* be able to actually select both streams from menu space in chrome. It will only allow you to specify the first stream, not the second. This was my major deal breaker with Chrome, in addition to the "no scripting" cock-up that dramatically reduces what you can do with it.
4 - All buttons in DLP menus must be manually coded using the "Custom VM Command" dialogue. Watch very carefully for making certain you link to the correct PGCN menu numbers, as the built-in command help will add one number because of the Abstraction Layer. In short, if the ROOT menu in VTS1 is PGCN 1, then the AL will refer to it as PGCN 2. I find the easiest way to get these numbers right is to look in the list created by DLP that itemizes all the assets in the project. The PGCN numbers are the same as the number of the menu in this list.
5 - Main timelines need to be manually returned to the VTS by using a POST command on the timeline. Leaving it as the d4efault will fail to work when the Abstraction Layer gets turned off at compile time.
6 - try to avoid using LinkTailPGC commands, as WinDVD will not recognize it properly. It's a great way ti code, as you get right around some of the more picky restrictions with little coding - but it is better to specify exactly what you want to happen here.

The Video_TS is by far the hardest part to do. I'll try to find some time to create a walk-through, but first I have a load of work to catch up on.
Been very ill lately.

 

[rubbersounds]

When I use DLP all I do is use the Audio-Only Title and delete the movie, I take the dtswav and ac3 files and append them together into one long track each, in Audition or any other wav editor, note down the start times for each track, open them in the assets section of DLP as well as all the still screens made for the audio side, drag the ac3 track into Audio 1 (ac3 has to be the first stream) and the dtswav track into Audio 2, right-click in the blank title screen and select 'chapters' then 'add manually' and in the box type in all the start times you previously noted. Once your chapters are done you can double-click inside each chapter and drag in and size your screen for that song as well as add previous and next buttons (I typed in text with the text tool and used that for my buttons) and link them, and add any text you want like the song title.

Once that's done you go to the menus folder and add a 2nd menu. The 1st menu is for the choice between DTS and DD, the 2nd menu is for the tracklist. I don't quite remember how I did my menus, I think I just typed in the song titles with the text tool and used those for my buttons again (I'm sure there's a better or more professional way but this worked good enough for me). When those are done and linked to the proper songs via the Button Link tool on the right side of the window, now you have to open the connections window, switch to the "draw links" tool (the '+') and draw an arrow from menu 1 to menu 2, and an arrow from menu 2 to audio title 1. If you don't draw these dumb little arrows, the whole thing won't work (I was literally stuck on this simple step for two weeks). Then you compile it.

To get any more specific I'd have to do another one as it's been awhile.

 

[neil wilkes]

When I use DLP all I do is use the Audio-Only Title and delete the movie, I take the dtswav and ac3 files and append them together into one long track each, in Audition or any other wav editor, note down the start times for each track, open them in the assets section of DLP as well as all the still screens made for the audio side, drag the ac3 track into Audio 1 (ac3 has to be the first stream) and the dtswav track into Audio 2, right-click in the blank title screen and select 'chapters' then 'add manually' and in the box type in all the start times you previously noted. Once your chapters are done you can double-click inside each chapter and drag in and size your screen for that song as well as add previous and next buttons (I typed in text with the text tool and used that for my buttons) and link them, and add any text you want like the song title.

Once that's done you go to the menus folder and add a 2nd menu. The 1st menu is for the choice between DTS and DD, the 2nd menu is for the tracklist. I don't quite remember how I did my menus, I think I just typed in the song titles with the text tool and used those for my buttons again (I'm sure there's a better or more professional way but this worked good enough for me). When those are done and linked to the proper songs via the Button Link tool on the right side of the window, now you have to open the connections window, switch to the "draw links" tool (the '+') and draw an arrow from menu 1 to menu 2, and an arrow from menu 2 to audio title 1. If you don't draw these dumb little arrows, the whole thing won't work (I was literally stuck on this simple step for two weeks). Then you compile it.

To get any more specific I'd have to do another one as it's been awhile.

No, no, no - this is wrong. So wrong I am surprised it works.
Problems:
1 - You should *never* use a DTS-WAV file. These are for CD use, not DVD due to the 44.1KHz sample rate required. You *can* "get away with it" sometimes, but it's not a good idea as sooner or later you'll hit a player that will play this at the wrong speed. (Been there, tried that one).
What you must have for DVD-A import is a 2-stream VOB containing on stream #1 either LPCM Stereo or DD 5.1 - the DTS must go to stream #2.
And it must be a proper DTS file, created as .dts or .cpt - this really is vitally important.

2 - Don't use the Audio title option either. Much better to use a slideshow and create your own low-bitrate M2V file at around 2,000 - 3,000kbps. It's much more stable than any other approach, and more spec friendly too.
Again, the Audio tile option will work on some players, but you'll hit issues sooner rather than later.

3 - You also need to eliminate the abstraction layer, or discwelder & Sonic will tell you there are spec violations on importing the Video_TS. This is important for playability, and the way around it is to write your own Custom VM commands.

I will find the time to post a walk-through on this one - but the massive "gotcha" with Discwelder is that once you import your VTS, you cannot pick the stream. It will default to Stream #1, regardless of what you do.
I never did find a good workaround for this.

 

[rubbersounds]

Hi Neil, I meant a .dts file, not a dts wav. Sorry, it's been too long. The slideshow option doesn't work on my version of DLP (the "appalling issues" you noted) and setting it up the way I did with the 'audio title only' does work and I don't remember getting any messages in my version of Chrome about being out of spec. I've also done it the way you suggested by creating a movie out of my screens in another program and importing that into DLP, but it's more work. I haven't had any issues with the abstraction layer. And I'm not sure what you mean about not being able to pick the stream in Chrome, I point group 2 to DD (stream 1) and group 3 to DTS (stream 2) and the subsequent links work fine and play back correctly from the audio side.

But then again I'm only doing this for home use so I don't have to be as careful as you do. As long as it works...

 

[neil wilkes]

How are you pointing Group 3 to the DTS? Chrome cannot pick stream 2, it defaults to stream 1.
(version 2.0.38) - I ask out of curiosity here.
What build of DLP are you running? 2.3.1 is the one for me.
The bugs are a joke though, and I will be getting a copy of Scenarist 3 before much longer.

Don't know why no spec violations - there should be. That method will invoke the AL of DLP, which creates all sorts of dummy VMGM/VTSM that are out of spec. Still, for personal use - as long as it works.......

 

[diatonis]

Adobe Encore doesn't produce a compatible Video_TS Link from the DVD-Audio layer. It works on about half of the players I've tried. Its a real problem. If you use more than 2 audio streams (PCM, AC3, DTS for example) it simply won't work at all.

If the hybrid disc is for your own personal use then you can use DTS WAV files (44.1kHz or 48kHz) as you would any stereo wav file. The output of the player must have a DTS decoder etc...

 

[neil wilkes]

Adobe Encore doesn't produce a compatible Video_TS Link from the DVD-Audio layer. It works on about half of the players I've tried. Its a real problem. If you use more than 2 audio streams (PCM, AC3, DTS for example) it simply won't work at all.

This is for a couple of reasons.
1 - DVD-A import of Video_TS has restrictions on the Video_TS. There is a link to download this list somewhere here but please PM me if you cannot find it. One of those restrictions is that you cannot have more than 2 audio streams per VTS. Why? Because the specs don;t allow it, and the DVD-A system can only address 2 streams. Stereo & Surround, normally. If more are needed you need extra VTS titles, which must be in separate VTS to the other titles. Which brings us to reason
2 - Encore (and all like it, including DVDSP, DVD Architect, DVDit, ReelDVD etc, are all Abstraction Layer programmes - and the Abstraction Layer gets in the way. To do the job properly you need one of the following:
Mac - DVD Fusion, DVD Creator (with modifications)
PC - Scenarist, Maestro (just about with modifications to the Video_TS), DVD-Lab Pro 2.3.1 (again, you must turn off the Abstraction Layer at compile to make this work).

Another problem is Chrome, and the way it's abstraction layer works. It boxes you into a corner, and whilst it is *possible* to make a legal master, as Bowie once sang "it ain't easy" - you need to know how DVD-A is structured, and it's funny little rules & quirks (For example - did you know you cannot actually call the PGC Menu area (AMGM) from title space? there is a workaround which is to add a 1-second silent track at the end of each Audio Group and point the "return to menu" button at that, which will play & execute the end action).
Also in Chrome you have no way to create custom commands, like Set/Branch, If/Then, SetSystem, SetSystem/Branch etc. Likewise there is no way to add custom pre & post commands to titles, tracks, groups or menus.
You cannot reliably pick audio streams on imported VTS titles either - it will automatically play stream #1 in a Video_TS. You can fudge it, but it won't work on a lot of players as it means an illegal Video_TS.
Also, Chrome doesn't handle audio properly. Many faults, the highlights being
A - Audio is imported directly into the group.
B - Gapless PCM & MLP with Trackpoints cannot use Active Menus, as it will default to the top still. This means that for stills, you can either have no navigation at all, or if you want navigation whilst playing you cannot use gapless audio. This means a 200ms glitch at every track start which ain't fun on things like DSOTM or a live album.

All that aside, it can be done. BUT - for the money this costs new ($3,000) you can get a second user copy of Sonic's DVD-Audio Creator. Sonic will transfer the license for free too. I also happen to know where there is a copy up for grabs - PM me if interested. Even for personal stuff, if you got the cash this is the one to get. Yes, it has bugs & quirks. But we finally sorted out a workaround for the last one the other week - so no more clicks in menu audio.
(For those interested, it's a bastard of a bug. There are 3 options for Menu Audio in the dialogue: WAV, AIFF, RAW (which can come in 3 flavours, .RAW, .BIN & .PCM).
WAV gives static. AIFF flips Left & Right, and clicks. RAW gives static.
The clue was the click - this means that the file type is not *quite* right. SO after hunting around in the application folder, we found an applet called "macfile.exe". This sort of implied that somewhere the files get the byte order flipped to motorola, and Dolby Digital for DVD also uses a Motorola byte order. The static implies the byte order is wrong.
By pure chance, I was running a stereo WAV import (WAV works just fine as long as the file size is under 2Gb) on the IMPORT AUDIO dialogue. I happened to have the target folder open too (DAC has to have it's assets imported to very specific locations in the project template or it will not find them) and noticed the dialogue creates a raw PCM file. SO we tried importing the menu AIFF audio into a side folder with the IMPORT AUDIO tool, and pointing the IMPORT MENU dialogue at the audio file created from it. To my utter joy, it gave a click-free file when compiled.

Dontcha just love it?

 

[Ge Someone]

the massive "gotcha" with Discwelder is that once you import your VTS, you cannot pick the stream. It will default to Stream #1, regardless of what you do.

Yeah, I remember such a disc . The mitigation is that this is only in DVD-A mode (where most of us would prefer the MLP anyway), when played as DVD-V it works as it's supposed to.

How are you pointing Group 3 to the DTS? Chrome cannot pick stream 2, it defaults to stream 1.
(version 2.0.38) - I ask out of curiosity here.

I hope I'm not totally off but doesn't each group have it's own audio tracks, so each have an audio track #1. (It would probably mean that the slideshow, if there is one, must be duplicated to both groups then).

 

[diatonis]

This is for a couple of reasons.
1 - DVD-A import of Video_TS has restrictions on the Video_TS. There is a link to download this list somewhere here but please PM me if you cannot find it. One of those restrictions is that you cannot have more than 2 audio streams per VTS. Why? Because the specs don;t allow it, and the DVD-A system can only address 2 streams. Stereo & Surround, normally. If more are needed you need extra VTS titles, which must be in separate VTS to the other titles. Which brings us to reason
2 - Encore (and all like it, including DVDSP, DVD Architect, DVDit, ReelDVD etc, are all Abstraction Layer programmes - and the Abstraction Layer gets in the way. To do the job properly you need one of the following:
Mac - DVD Fusion, DVD Creator (with modifications)
PC - Scenarist, Maestro (just about with modifications to the Video_TS), DVD-Lab Pro 2.3.1 (again, you must turn off the Abstraction Layer at compile to make this work).

...

Hi Neil

Thanks for the info I tried a number of things to get Chrome to link properly even using 2 streams (AC3 and DTS). On some players after playing the video it returns back to the root menu and not the menu the link originated from (Audio_TS). This happens on a couple of players. I've also found that giving each video its own timeline in Encore to be problematic. The video link from Audio_TS zone will play only one video and then return and not follow to the next video. So all the videos are on a single timeline.

I too have run into the 2GB limit in Chrome If I remember correctly the MLP encoder encodes the file correctly ( > than 2GB) but Chrome only recognizes 2GB. It'll just end at 2GB while playing it. Thank you for the Sonic DVD offer but at the moment I'm kind limited to what I have.

Thanks Again for your help,
Stuart

 

[neil wilkes]

Sheesh, it's been a while since I wrote in this thread,.
Fist thing I have to do is serve myself up a whopping great slice of Humble Pie, and a big apology to rubbersounds.
I was utterly wrong when I wrote my "this is all terrible & hopelessly wrong" spiel. Aargh. Sorry, guy!

Audio Only titles from DLP work just fine with caveats.
1 - The track timing creeps, and the longer the stream & the more numerous the "chapters", the worse it gets. With segued material it is a nightmare.
You enter in HH:MM:FF, and it actually seems to use 29.97 df timecode, so if you enter in proper time it ends up as 29.97 +/- 1 second either way as it does not create a GOP header at the chapter point.
Also - possibly unrelated, possibly not - DLP seems to introduce glitches into slideshow generated content nowadays. It is always touch & go as to whether or not it compiles properly. SAll you can do is test each compile as thoroughly as you can.
2 - all imported track stills must be at 720 x 540 Square Pixel Bitmaps, or for 16:9 at 960 x 540 - whereas every PGC menu will happily accept 720 x 480 Non-square pixel (NTSC) and 720x576 non-square pixel (PAL). Trackslides all need to be 720x540 (PAL or NTSC) or 960x540 (PAL or NTSC) depending on frame size.
3 - you are effectively limited to not many more than 5 VTS reliably, you may get lucky on 6 or 7, but forget going any higher or you will hit the "Out Of Memory" page.
4 - Watch out for CLUT issues.

Stuart.
If you use DLP to create Video_TS you need to enter all the VM commands manually to make the playback revert to the Audio_TS menu structure after a VTS plays out. You simply cannot do this in any Abstraction Layer tool as the dummy VMGM it creates will hijack the player.
If you need the code, please let me know & I will happily provide it.
Encore simply was never designed to work in the way we want, depsite many of it's users asking for programmable VM and scripting. I'd be lost without that ability now - and once you start writing the code directly, it seems to make all the problems go away with the abstraction layer. You'll never want to work that way again.

 

[neil wilkes]

And I *will* get a turorial for Video_TS in DLP, very soon now.
We go into recess on King Crimson after Lizard, so at that point.......

 

[blackbirdr]

OK making DTS cd's from single wav files and cue. Medieval Cue Splitter & Express Burn found on CNET worked like magic......