Need Needle help PlEASE. ZAPPA not amazing!?!

[elguapo511]

I was gifted a pioneer qx-949. Everything works, except everyone on this board makes fun of pioneers.

I was gifted 4 kenwood kl-777a's - no one has made fun of those.

I have been trying to impress myself with this stuff, But nothing is wowed me.

The dude who gave me the stereo said he got it in the Navy in Germany or Bermuda when it was new.

So I just purchased Zappa Apostraphe(') Quadradisc and figured that should knock my socks off. . . socks still on...SOCKS STILL ON!

I have a pikering uv-15 cartridge with a D2400-Q stylus and it looks pretty old.

Can anyone give me advise on what to replace? The stylus? The Cartridge?

What is a good replacement stylus? and where can I get it? There seem to be so many options, I cannot figure out what to do.

Should I just give up with my pioneer gear?

Thanks for the help.

Also, I am in Chicago, if I can actually go somewhere and ask a human, let this kid know

 

[quadjoe]

elguapo511,

It's great that you got some quad gear to get started with. I'm not quite sure what you expected from the Quadradisc, but you should know that you have to take some time to properly adjust the demodulator for optimal CD-4 playback. What turntable are you using? Do you have a CD-4 adjustment disc? If not, you should get this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/FISHER-QUAD...5753709?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item2566a314ed No, I'm not the seller, but for the buy it now price you should snap it up. Even though it is for a Fisher unit, it will work for the Pioneer. Regarding the Pickering cartridge, you should replace the stylus. If it is original it is likely that the suspension might be old (rubber parts do dry-rot) and cause tracking problems. Garage-A-Records has a replacement stylus for it: http://www.garage-a-records.com/pro...66&PHPSESSID=ac3ca37946b9120cd01f0af9121eeac9 There is a wealth of information on this forum for adjusting CD-4 for optimal playback, and yes you can use a CD-4 cartridge to play all your records, without any problems. You can replace the cartridge if you want to, what is your budget? Many here use the Audio-Technica AT-440MLa with good results. Don't give up on the Pioneer gear, it isn't horrible, but reliability seems to be an issue for some folks. I have a Lafayette LR-5000 quad receiver that sounds pretty good and was likely made for them by Pioneer. It isn't as good as my Sansui, but it is very listenable.

I've never heard Apostrophe (') , so I can't speak as to whether or not your socks should still be on. If you can pick up any of the Doobie Brothers' Quadradiscs, or Nilsson Schmilsson on Quadradisc, those can be very, very good indeed.

 

[elguapo511]

just picket up the adjustment disc. should be here in a week.
I was first given a Kenwood kp-5022 with and extra cleaning arm and a few strange speeds on it. (which brings up another question... Are there specific quad turntables?)
Currently I have the Pickering cartridge hooked to a gemini xl-300 which is a direct drive dj table.

Looking at the Cartridge and stylus, the rubber is in fine shape... i just figured that it was so old that the rock must be worn down. but it doesnt sound broken or cracked like a few obviously broken needles i have had in the past. (the sound of a broken needle is usually a low dragging or scrapping sound?)



How do I adjust the demodulator? Is that what i use the adjustment disc for, or do I have to open the receiver up?

Also, I have 4 100w speakers in a room about 15x15 feet. are the speakers too big for the room to hear any separation? should I get smaller speakers in the back. should I keep bass low in the rear. should I stack four large speakers in the front and get some smaller wattage in the front?

and should I have the rear speakers facing eachother?

and should I sit in the middle of the room on the floor. or shoudl the speakers be off of the ground.

"bring me four fried chickens and a coke"

 

[John Svensson]

Yes....the CD4 Adjustment LP is for performing optimal setup for reproducing CD4 records.s
Four equal sized speakers are best for quad reproductioon.... the "same size" theory goes for all surround music applications.
Yes, some turntables seem to be more suited for CD4 use than others......I don't know how a semi-modern DJ table would rate, probably not optimum.
The second post concerning stylus was very informative. I think you need to do a little backgroud reading, Search "CD4
Adjustment" and you'll find some very detailed "how to"..."step by step"....threads on here.
John

 

[quadjoe]

just picket up the adjustment disc. should be here in a week.
I was first given a Kenwood kp-5022 with and extra cleaning arm and a few strange speeds on it. (which brings up another question... Are there specific quad turntables?)
Currently I have the Pickering cartridge hooked to a gemini xl-300 which is a direct drive dj table.

Looking at the Cartridge and stylus, the rubber is in fine shape... i just figured that it was so old that the rock must be worn down. but it doesnt sound broken or cracked like a few obviously broken needles i have had in the past. (the sound of a broken needle is usually a low dragging or scrapping sound?)



How do I adjust the demodulator? Is that what i use the adjustment disc for, or do I have to open the receiver up?

Also, I have 4 100w speakers in a room about 15x15 feet. are the speakers too big for the room to hear any separation? should I get smaller speakers in the back. should I keep bass low in the rear. should I stack four large speakers in the front and get some smaller wattage in the front?

and should I have the rear speakers facing eachother?

and should I sit in the middle of the room on the floor. or shoudl the speakers be off of the ground.

"bring me four fried chickens and a coke"

Back in the '70s there were some turntables made specifically for quadraphonic use (such as the Dual 1229Q), but most turntables made from say 1974 through 1976 featured the low capacitance wiring needed to pass the 30kHz carrier to the demodulator, and as such were CD-4 capable. Many modern turntables also have wiring that can do the job as well. Your Gemini turntable's biggest problem is it's tonearm. While it may look similar in design to the Technics SL-1200 series, it's bearing is of substantially lesser quality and may introduce significant inner groove distortion, which is a problem when tracking the inside cuts on a CD-4 record. That said, if you're getting good playback results, it's probably alright. The stylus may indeed be worn, and without a microscope (and knowing what to look for) to examine the diamond you're best bet is to replace it. A worn stylus can permanently damage a record before you ever get to the "dragging or scraping" sound.

To adjust the demodulator, you'll use the first 3 bands on side one of the disc. The first track has the left and right front to back separation adjustments. To do this turn down the volume of your front channels all the way, and then adjust the pots on the front left of the receiver until you barely hear the tone. Then turn up your front channels and you will hear the announcer identify the channels on track 2, the third track is for the 30kHz carrier PLL lock range adjustment, just let it play the Pioneer should automatically do that for you. Now you're good to go! By the way, the remaining tracks are some pretty good instrumental tracks that demonstrate the capability of the CD-4 format. Side two of the disc is encoded in SQ, you won't need to make any adjustments, Fisher just wanted folks to have some software in both formats with their new receivers. (The record came with their CD-4 capable receivers as well as their outboard CD-4 demodulators.)

Now for speaker placement: for that you should read the following page: http://www.wendycarlos.com/surround/surround2.html#optquad you should use the minimum basic quadraphonic setup (about halfway down the page) when you only have 4 channels and 4 speakers (all that the QX-949 and other quad era receivers are capbable of.) I don't think your speakers are too big for the room, but then you don't say what they are, so I'll withhold any judgment about that.

 

[Doug G.]

elguapo, what do you hear coming out of the speakers when you play a CD-4 record?

Is the sound OK and there just isn't any separation or do you hear fairly loud blllllaaaaaaaatttting type sounds?

If there just isn't enough separation, it is probably a demodulator adjustment issue. If you hear the loud distortion sounds, it is cartridge mistracking.

Doug

 

[elguapo511]

OKAY... so. I just received the FISHER QUADRADISC CD-4 DISCREET SQ-MATRIX test LP.
ON the CD-4 side - everything seems to be coming out of the front left speaker. And when the voice says FR FC FL RR RC RL etc, it mostly comes out of the front left speaker. Nothing really moves around the room.

Then when the music starts, all of the speakers play. I am very confused.

ON the SQ side everything is loud and clear.

so my concern is the CD-4 side. Even when it plays the 1khz warble tones, it doest come out of the speaker it should. Yes I have all of the wires in the correct plugs.

SO,,,, is this a needle issue? could my needle be worn down or cracked? The sound is clear just not coming out of the correct channels.

thanks for the tips....

 

[quadjoe]

There is a possibility that your demodulator is not functioning. A worn needle would give distorted sound (and permanently damage the record), and diamond styli don't crack, though I have seen styli that are bonded to the cantilever (glued) come off entirely. So I suspect that your stylus is just fine, given that it sounds good in stereo and SQ.

First, let me ask you a question: Did you go through the set-up steps I described in the post above? You have to adjust the pots labelled "CD-4 Separation" on the front of your receiver, there will be one each for right and left. It is possible that the right side is turned either all the way down, and if so it is possible you'll have no sound on the right. Remember, to make the front to back separation adjustments, you will be turning the front to back balance control to have only the rear speakers play, then you will set the REAR right to left balance control all the way to the left, then you will adjust the "CD-4 Separation" control so that the tone is barely audible in the left rear speaker. Then turn the REAR right to left balance control all the way to the right side and make the same adjustment. Then return your balance controls to their center positions. Then play the channel identification track to see if it is working. Don't forget that you will need to select CD-4 playback for all of this. (If you're in SQ mode, you can't make the adjustments). If you're still getting the same result, the internal demodulator is not working, so when you play a CD-4 record all you're getting is stereo through 4 speakers. Which is why you're not impressed. I wish I was nearby so I could help you with this personally. I've done the adjustments many, many times and I have no problems doing it, and I know I could teach you how in less than 5 minutes.

 

[quadjoe]

Duplicate post deleted.

 

[medkill]

Regarding the Pioneer, the QX 747/747A/949/949A amps have a Red 'CD-4 Radar' indicator light next to the CD-4 mode light. The radar lights up when it detects the carrier signal. If this doesn't light, the internal demodulator is probably not working. Even with a faulty or incorrect needle, the system would, at least intermittently, detect the signal and momentarily light the radar lamp. I have a 747 that the demodulator does not work, and the 949A has a working demodulator.

 

[elguapo511]

thanks medkill.
The light goes on, but it doest really matter if the record is spinning or not. It simply lights up when I set it to CD-4. I only have one turntable plugged in and it lights up on Phono 1 and 2. So it seems like a vanity light. Is it really detecting anything?

 

[medkill]

The 'radar' light is a small, round red indicator lamp next to, but not to be confused with, the CD-4 legend lamp, which is amber. The Red Radar lamp should only light when it detects the carrier signal.

 

[elguapo511]

right.
The cd-4 back light is amber
The indicator is red. My indicator is always on, like i mentioned, even when I dont have a phono plugged in.
I wonder ....

 

[medkill]

That's a lot of your issue. Without an oscilloscope and schematics, that'll be a bear to fix. It's not 'detecting' anything unless you just happen to have some other electronic gizmo nearby emitting such rf interference. When I was running my 949A, it would pick up the interference from the 'Lightning Discs' that I have in my living room. They caused the radar light to come on and really wreacked havoc with the sound of whatever was playing. Come to think of it, not knowing your surroundings, that may be an issue. Good luck with the issue. If I can think of anything else, I'll pass it on. I have schematics for my 949A, but they may not work for your 949, as the CD-4 demodulator circuitry was one of the things upgraded for the A.

 

[elguapo511]

I have the schematics
and...
only two of the four lights on the oscilloscope work. Front right and back right. However there is sound coming out of all four speakers.
Does the oscilloscope only light up when it picks up the signal?

 

[quadjoe]

thanks medkill.
The light goes on, but it doest really matter if the record is spinning or not. It simply lights up when I set it to CD-4. I only have one turntable plugged in and it lights up on Phono 1 and 2. So it seems like a vanity light. Is it really detecting anything?

elguapo,

The CD-4 radar light should ONLY come on when there is a CD-4 record being played. On most Quadradiscs, when you set the needle into the lead-in groove, the CD-4 carrier begins just before the first note of music (less than 1 second before). If the record stops spinning, the light should go out. Sounds to me like you have a defective CD-4 section in your receiver, and in your case, nothing is being detected because it isn't functioning properly, and you're not getting true CD-4 sound.

 

[quadnewbie]

There is a guy on the bay selling his collection of audiotecnia at12sa cartridges and styli. Item #280785570111. He sold a bunch of brand new old stock quad stuff in amazing condition. I would take a look at this cause it's a wonderful cartridge for quad. The seller id from Hawaii but he ships fast and cheaply. I bought some stuff from him a while ago and it's great condition stuff. I say change the cartridge and needle first....best!

 

[elguapo511]

just got a jvc 4dd5 and hooked it up to a modern 5.1 receiver. played my zappa albums, and damn it sounds great. my previous receiver was the issue. i dont think the decoders were working at all.
SO,, i am sorry for bothering everyone with my crappy receiver issues.

 

[Doug G.]

Don't worry. That's what we're here for.



Doug