- Joined
- Dec 7, 2003
- Messages
- 62
I will take a look when I get home tonight.
Nine Inch Nails Simultaneous Adv Res DualDisc
- Thread starter kstuart
- Start date
Help Support QuadraphonicQuad:
Dear Kris,
This is the part that you pulled out of your arse:
I've produced or executive produced every U.S domestic DVD-A and Dual Disc release for UMG, which is about 50 titles at my last count. As you know (or you should know), MLP compression can be quite variable based on the content being compressed. Now there are tricks to make audio compress better with MLP, such as high and low pass filtering, or truncating bit depth, but we don't play those games.
On the NIN - With Teeth Dual Disc, the 96/24 surround wouldn't fit. It's as simple as that. On the other Dual Disc releases to date, it was either a space issue or the non-availability of 96/24 surround that determined disc content. I will leave it up to you to go back and do the math - I've already done it.
I don't know how anybody could rationally think that the world's largest music company would "have MLP encoder issues" when MLP encoding is done either at mastering (such as Gateway or Sterling) or at authoring (one of our authoring houses is the same one that Warner uses.)
Best Regards,
Jim
This is the part that you pulled out of your arse:
How do I know?Kris Deering said:
I've produced or executive produced every U.S domestic DVD-A and Dual Disc release for UMG, which is about 50 titles at my last count. As you know (or you should know), MLP compression can be quite variable based on the content being compressed. Now there are tricks to make audio compress better with MLP, such as high and low pass filtering, or truncating bit depth, but we don't play those games.
On the NIN - With Teeth Dual Disc, the 96/24 surround wouldn't fit. It's as simple as that. On the other Dual Disc releases to date, it was either a space issue or the non-availability of 96/24 surround that determined disc content. I will leave it up to you to go back and do the math - I've already done it.
I don't know how anybody could rationally think that the world's largest music company would "have MLP encoder issues" when MLP encoding is done either at mastering (such as Gateway or Sterling) or at authoring (one of our authoring houses is the same one that Warner uses.)
Best Regards,
Jim
mandel
Well-known Member
Amazon.co.uk are showing a two disc import version of With Teeth here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...6035/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_10_3/026-4706570-4682841
I strongly suspect it's a mistake and it's a dual-disc not a double-disc? Would love to be corrected though...
Against my better judgement I may have to go buy this on Dual-disc anyway...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...6035/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_10_3/026-4706570-4682841
I strongly suspect it's a mistake and it's a dual-disc not a double-disc? Would love to be corrected though...
Against my better judgement I may have to go buy this on Dual-disc anyway...
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2003
- Messages
- 62
jimby said:Dear Kris,
This is the part that you pulled out of your arse:
How do I know?
I've produced or executive produced every U.S domestic DVD-A and Dual Disc release for UMG, which is about 50 titles at my last count. As you know (or you should know), MLP compression can be quite variable based on the content being compressed. Now there are tricks to make audio compress better with MLP, such as high and low pass filtering, or truncating bit depth, but we don't play those games.
On the NIN - With Teeth Dual Disc, the 96/24 surround wouldn't fit. It's as simple as that. On the other Dual Disc releases to date, it was either a space issue or the non-availability of 96/24 surround that determined disc content. I will leave it up to you to go back and do the math - I've already done it.
I don't know how anybody could rationally think that the world's largest music company would "have MLP encoder issues" when MLP encoding is done either at mastering (such as Gateway or Sterling) or at authoring (one of our authoring houses is the same one that Warner uses.)
Best Regards,
Jim
That is funny, I think I mentioned that this was a rumor, not a fact. Interesting though that Universal is the only company facing this problem.
Here is a quote I just received directly from one of the heads at Silverline when I asked about their 96/24 support:
"Every one of the DualDisc releases by the labels owned by the 5.1 Entertainment Group (Silverline, immergent and Myutopia) has 96/24 MLP encoded audio on the DVD side of the disc as well as Dolby Digital AC3. We have no plans to do otherwise in the future."
So that makes two labels with full 96/24 support. It is too bad that Universal hasn't been able to but if you say it just hasn't been possible then that is fine. I believe you. My comments are based on the post explicitly saying that 96/24 is just not possible on a Dualdisc, and that is just not true.
Kris Deering said:
Interesting stuff, guys!
But Kris, is it possible that the labels offering full 96/24 MLP product are sometimes "playing games" with the compression as Jim alludes to (high and low pass filtering or truncating bit depth)?
Personally, I'll take a small hit on resolution over these silly games any day! What is the alternative? Dolby Digital? No thanks! The new NIN DVD-A sounds friggin' awesome! Sure, I wish it were a regular DVD-A instead of a DualDisc, but I understand that the record company has to sell units... and as far as DualDisc goes, they've done right by me.
I'd be curious to learn if Silverline is indeed compromising their product to get the higher resolution (it wouldn't surprise me at all).
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2003
- Messages
- 62
I guess the only way to know would be to get a company to admit it, but I don't think that'll happen. I have no doubt that overall album length plays into it since space is the biggest concern. My point was simply that 96/24 5.1 tracks can be put on Dualdisc.
The new NIN disc does sound quite good on Dualdisc but I found some strain present on the MLP 5.1 mix that isn't there in the stereo tracks. It is pretty obvious in the front right channel on the last track. I know that Trent wanted a bit of a low-fi sound on this album anyways though. The Downward Spiral sounded a bit better in my opinion. I think The Fragile would lend itself to the format even better with all of the intricate layering and sonics though.
The new NIN disc does sound quite good on Dualdisc but I found some strain present on the MLP 5.1 mix that isn't there in the stereo tracks. It is pretty obvious in the front right channel on the last track. I know that Trent wanted a bit of a low-fi sound on this album anyways though. The Downward Spiral sounded a bit better in my opinion. I think The Fragile would lend itself to the format even better with all of the intricate layering and sonics though.
Kris Deering said:
No doubt, and if the pure, unfettered MLP tracks don't fit, a real DVD-A should be considered, possibly as a dual release with the regular CD (which, personally, is my favorite solution to all this DualDisc nonsense).
Cai Campbell said:
Just for the record, I never said any other label was doing this presently. Silverline puts out fine product, as do the other labels. The point was that if all you want to see are 96/24 numbers on the back of the package, there are plenty ways to get there, but I doubt you would be happy with them.
The most important thing is that the music sounds good, not the "specs" on the back of the disc.
Kris, with all due respect, you are off-base with this one. Citing "rumors" and "UMG has had trouble with MLP encoders" is simply not good journalistic practice. You, of all people, should know better.
jim
Last edited:
mandel
Well-known Member
I ordered this from CD-WOW (http://www.cd-wow.com/) which claimed to have it with a bonus DVD-A.
Today got it (from Hong Kong suprisingly) and it is a Double-disc set (RBCD + DVD5) not a Dualdisc. Nice! :spot
Today got it (from Hong Kong suprisingly) and it is a Double-disc set (RBCD + DVD5) not a Dualdisc. Nice! :spot
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2003
- Messages
- 62
With all due respect, there is nothing wrong with posting information as long as you state upfront that it is speculation. It gives people ideas as to why something may be that is understandable. Since no one at Universal has come forward with any information until this point, frankly there was no choice.
I am writing an article on Dualdisc right now for Secrets and questions were put in to every major label through the appropriate channels. Universal has had a clear oppurtunity to put out the CORRECT information but have not done so yet. The only responses I have received so far are from Silverline and EMI.
As long as labels leave their customers in the dark about information that should be easy to explain, this is what happens. How hard would it have been to clear this rumor up immediately without going into somewhat of a pissing contest on some internet board. And the labels wonder why formats like DVD-A and SACD didn't do that well, or why early adopters get so pissed. I am in no way trying to single Universal out here, all of the labels (with the clear exception of Silverline who have my utmost respect) are just as guilty.
Kris, I don't think Silverline is filtering / chopping bit depth etc. to fit its multichannel 96/24 mixes. Rather, it makes the space available by NOT including a hirez stereo track. Instead, Silverline DualDiscs have a Dolby Digital stereo track for DVD players. That saves a lot of space which they can dedicate to hirez multichannel instead.
UMG, on the other hand, does have a dedicated hirez (i.e. 24 bit MLP/PPCM) stereo as well as the multichannel on the DualDisc.
Personally, I like Silverline's approach, since I prefer to listen in multichannel with no compromises i.e. 96/24 in 5.1ch. But I can understand why UMG takes the approach it does.
UMG, on the other hand, does have a dedicated hirez (i.e. 24 bit MLP/PPCM) stereo as well as the multichannel on the DualDisc.
Personally, I like Silverline's approach, since I prefer to listen in multichannel with no compromises i.e. 96/24 in 5.1ch. But I can understand why UMG takes the approach it does.
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2003
- Messages
- 62
Personally I like the approach the Warner is taking with its releases lately. A two disc set with the normal CD packaged with a DVD. Universal also did this with Beck's new one. That is a no compromise approach. I even had the oppurtunity to speak with some more independent smaller labels that said this was a lot more affordable then Dualdisc for them, so cost shouldn't be the issue.
I agree on the Silverline/Universal thing. If Universal was going to make one track a higher resolution, I would prefer the M/C track. I rarely if ever listen to the stereo tracks on my DVD-A and SA-CD discs.
I agree on the Silverline/Universal thing. If Universal was going to make one track a higher resolution, I would prefer the M/C track. I rarely if ever listen to the stereo tracks on my DVD-A and SA-CD discs.
I wonder what Universal will be doing in the future. At this point, they seem to be dormant.
Look for our Nine Inch Nails live concert [NIN:Beside You In Time] release on Blu-ray, HD-DVD and DVD at the end of February. Shot in 1080 HD.
The surround mix is by Elliot Scheiner, and both of the HD formats contain a Dolby TrueHD version of the mix (48/24).
See? Not so dormant
Look for our Nine Inch Nails live concert [NIN:Beside You In Time] release on Blu-ray, HD-DVD and DVD at the end of February. Shot in 1080 HD.
The surround mix is by Elliot Scheiner, and both of the HD formats contain a Dolby TrueHD version of the mix (48/24).
See? Not so dormant
Hi Jimby! Long time, no see!
That sounds great. I appreciate the fact that you will release on both HD formats instead of just one.
Can you tell us anything about future releases of surround music, such as the "phase 2 Eltons", or other previously announced titles?
beached
Senior Member
My copy of "Swinging for the Fences" a dualdisc by 5.1 and Silverline only reads 48k/24 on my player. This great title is 96k/24 on the original DVD-A apparently. So maybe they did find a reason to down scale this for dualdisc.
Chris Gerhard
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
I have the original Big Phat Band DVD-A and recall it to be 96/24. I haven't played that in ages, but it is really good. All of this complaining about lack of releases and I have so many I can't play each but once every couple of years on average going forward unless I spend even more time listening.
Chris
Hi Jimby! Long time, no see!
That sounds great. I appreciate the fact that you will release on both HD formats instead of just one.
Can you tell us anything about future releases of surround music, such as the "phase 2 Eltons", or other previously announced titles?
Sorry Jon, the label handling the Elton John content has not yet finalized any release plans, so I can't give you any definite information yet. I'll keep tabs on this and let you know if I hear any new info.
Jim
