Question about SACD .1 bass.

[ct]

I always assumed that the .1 LFE bass channel, when set to "direct", only accepted the input which the person who mastered the disc intended to be there. I found this true on most of my DVD-A's, and DVD-V's. Recently I purchased a universal player, the Tosh SD 4960, and have found an increased bass response with quite a few SACD's I have purchased. . I got some James Taylor SACD's yesterday, and the bass hurt my ears. I doubt the person who mastered the disc intended this. Any ideas? I use a Velodyne 10" subwoofer; with full speakers for the other 5 channels.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I always assumed that the .1 LFE bass channel, when set to "direct", only accepted the input which the person who mastered the disc intended to be there. I found this true on most of my DVD-A's, and DVD-V's. Recently I purchased a universal player, the Tosh SD 4960, and have found an increased bass response with quite a few SACD's I have purchased. . I got some James Taylor SACD's yesterday, and the bass hurt my ears. I doubt the person who mastered the disc intended this. Any ideas? I use a Velodyne 10" subwoofer; with full speakers for the other 5 channels.

If you are not using bass management, that's what was intended. Bass on the JT discs I have is pretty forceful, even on the main channels; try turning the sub off.

Kal

 

[ct]

Thanks, Kal for the response. I was wondering if, doubtful, there was any difference in the DVD-A and SACD specs which might cause the apparent difference in bass response.

I think you are suggesting changing the setting on the subwoofer from "direct" to "bass management"?

 

[HiRes_PR]

Thanks, Kal for the response. I was wondering if, doubtful, there was any difference in the DVD-A and SACD specs which might cause the apparent difference in bass response.

I think you are suggesting changing the setting on the subwoofer from "direct" to "bass management"?

Use the DMP Reference Multichannel SACD to set the levels of all channels (set to full range) including the Subwoofer/LFE one. Then you'll have the correct setting for your Velodyne.

Let's me be clear on this, the built-in test tones in an universal player is for Dolby Digital/DTS calibration. It can't be used to set up the DVD-A/SACD channel levels.

 

[ferret-e]

Let's me be clear on this, the built-in test tones in an universal player is for Dolby Digital/DTS calibration. It can't be used to set up the DVD-A/SACD channel levels.

Is it right for all players or only for Tosh SD 4960 ?

 

[HiRes_PR]

Is it right for all players or only for Tosh SD 4960 ?

It seems that all players. Some have a special +10db boost switch for the LFE/Sub channel to be used when playing DVD-A/SACD. Even dedicated SACD players exhibit this behavior.

That's why I always recommend to use the DMP Multichannel Reference SACD to set levels. The track #8 is for this purpose.

 

[Guy Robinson]

I don't know how you guys acheive (and can be happy with) one sub setting for every disc. I adjust my sub almost everytime I put in a new disc and I keep track of the settings. Generally though with most things I have the sub on 1/4 (Velodyne 12 inch) but depending on the disc it could go up all the way to 3/4.

 

[ferret-e]

I don't know how you guys acheive (and can be happy with) one sub setting for every disc. I adjust my sub almost everytime I put in a new disc and I keep track of the settings. Generally though with most things I have the sub on 1/4 (Velodyne 12 inch) but depending on the disc it could go up all the way to 3/4.

You want always the same bass level ragardless of how it mastered...

 

[daved64]

You want always the same bass level ragardless of how it mastered...

I played my Crystal Method DVD-A, which suprisingly has weak bass.......then proceeded to play my Aerosmith SACD. If I had kept the same level on the sub for Aerosmith, my house would have blown up!

 

[Guy Robinson]

I played my Crystal Method DVD-A, which suprisingly has weak bass.......then proceeded to play my Aerosmith SACD. If I had kept the same level on the sub for Aerosmith, my house would have blown up!

I agree. If you want things optimal on each disc you have to fiddle. I am a perfectionist when it comes to this. What sounds good to me is what is important.

 

[bmoura]

I played my Crystal Method DVD-A, which suprisingly has weak bass.......then proceeded to play my Aerosmith SACD. If I had kept the same level on the sub for Aerosmith, my house would have blown up!

Which Aerosmith SACD was this? Toys In The Attic ?

 

[daved64]

Which Aerosmith SACD was this? Toys In The Attic ?

Yes....full natural bass vs synthetic computerized poo (the CM disc)

 

[ct]

This has been illuminating. I guess what everybody is saying is that when you set the subwoofer to "direct" - you supposedly get what the the signal the individual who mastered the disc set; no difference between the format's. Almost 95% of my discs are OK, it's the exception, some earlier Silverline DVD-A's, the James Taylor pieces; and the Swing Live 'Album with Manhattan transfer which are the most overly bassed works for me. I have noticed that on some of the Mercury Classics three channel albums that the subwoofer is kicking in. Didn't think that was supposed to happen on "Direct"; only on crossover.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Wait a minute! If you are getting the sub working on any of the MLP SACDs, you are not working direct. Either the player or the receiver is doing bass management.

As for adjusting the sub settings or not, it is a rehash of the tone-control issue. Do you want to hear what the producers put on the recording or do you want it to sound a particular way? There's no universal answer.

Kal

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Hold on again. I just noticed that you are talking about setting the sub, itself, to direct. AFAIK, that only means no crossover and that the player or receiver is doing the bass management and crossover. I was referring to 'direct' as meaning no bass management. That's the only way to get the distribution of signals as the producer intended.

Kal

 

[ct]

That's what I thought. Perhaps the Toshiba is doing some kind of bass management with the SACD channel. It doesn't seem to with DVD-A. But I have the receiver, which is an Onkyo, set to Multichannel - so it should accept the signal, and likewise the sub, as the producer "intended". Which, usually, is what I would like to hear - without an exaggerated bass.

 

[HiRes_PR]

Hold on again. I just noticed that you are talking about setting the sub, itself, to direct. AFAIK, that only means no crossover and that the player or receiver is doing the bass management and crossover. I was referring to 'direct' as meaning no bass management. That's the only way to get the distribution of signals as the producer intended.

Kal

Not exactly!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Not exactly!

So? Details?

Kal

 

[HiRes_PR]

So? Details?

Kal

Some engineers use bass management at the studio when mixing multi-channel DVD-A/SACDs. There are several products for that. You can even check at the Miller & Kreiser Sound Professional website. If they use Bass Management, it's because they think you'll use it too.

Sometimes the LFE bass signal is extended to higher frequencies. This signal interact with the 5 main bass creating a boomy sound in the overlapping region. So, you always have to use some type of low pass filtering in the SUB channel to get it right if you're in DIRECT mode. In this way the main speakers and the subwoofer won't be reproducing the same bass signals.

Even worst, Bass Management on most players is flawed because it raise the SUB output regardless of content. But this requires a longer explanation.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Your points are well-taken but dependant on knowing what the producers did with the mix. Most of the music I listen to is not produced that way and bypassing BM is a direct route to what was put into the mix. In some cases, BM is presumed by the producers but how can you know?

As for your last point, the LFE SHOULD already have a LP filter in its production but, again, it depends on the mix.

However, one cannot assume that fiddling with the parameters of BM will apply to any and all recordings.

Kal

Some engineers use bass management at the studio when mixing multi-channel DVD-A/SACDs. There are several products for that. You can even check at the Miller & Kreiser Sound Professional website. If they use Bass Management, it's because they think you'll use it too.

Sometimes the LFE bass signal is extended to higher frequencies. This signal interact with the 5 main bass creating a boomy sound in the overlapping region. So, you always have to use some type of low pass filtering in the SUB channel to get it right if you're in DIRECT mode. In this way the main speakers and the subwoofer won't be reproducing the same bass signals.

Even worst, Bass Management on most players is flawed because it raise the SUB output regardless of content. But this requires a longer explanation.