Room Correction: How, why, where?

[marpow]

The QQ thread POLL-CURRENT ATMOS LAYOUT, has got me very interested in taking next steps. Great responses from QQ members.
In fact the message below, really peaked my interest.
@FooBarFoo said to me "I seriously suggest grabbing a PC and a mic to look at your acoustics and applying some EQ to tame the high end".
Thank you I think this is good/strong advice.

I am big into research and I do things slowly, but I do things.
I am focused on getting a new pair of front speakers for stereo listening, but I do not want spend money and wonder if I did the right thing.
I am a McIntosh man and I never question my products, they work and sound perfect every day. Yes, I know I am paying extra for the brand name, but that is my choice.
I have treated my room with GIK Acoustic products, front bass traps, side wall absorbers and rear wall diffusers. Excellent, I do not question there positive impact.
I spent a couple hours this morning getting educated with EQ Room Acoustic Software, reading and YouTube watching. There seems to be two standouts and there was one McIntosh product, that had features, that I like.

ROOM EQ WIZARD (REW)

DIRAC LIVE

McIntosh MEN220 ROOM CORRECTION

I have to admit, the expense and understanding of the products kind of worry's me but it is much cheaper than buying a random pair of speakers just because someone on the internet said there really good.

Anyway, If you have experience with room correction devices or software I'd love to hear your opinion, pros and cons.
As a footnote, I am way past positioning of speakers, an inch here, an inch there, closer/further from wall, been there done all that, plus much more.
WHY? When I listen to multi channel because of up to 4.0, 5.1, and 5.2.4, all speakers working together definitely help me, the listener, the brightness seems to go away. I own all 9 B&W timbre matched speakers.
But, when I listen to stereo, I listen to a lot of stereo, I have light tinnitus, and many times I am sitting listening, feeling uncomfortable as the sound is too bright, to me.
Maybe @FooBarFoo is right?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

He is right.

1. REW is a measurement tool and can develop corrections for your situation but it cannot implement them. You will need another program or device to do that.
2. DiracLive is excellent but it is not a "click-and-go" product. However, it will encompass all of the channel formats you have, including stereo.
3. The Mac MEN220 is a stereo-only implementation of "Room Perfect." It is effective and relatively simple to implement. However, I suspect that after you successfully implement it, you will want to realize the same improvements with your multichannel playback.

 

[kfbkfb]

One issue I haven't read about regarding "room correction" - the polar response of the various speakers - EQ (frequency and phase) can't alter the polar response, is there a guide for selecting speakers for Atmos (floor level and overhead)?


Kirk Bayne

 

[IMachine]

Ceiling absorbers will help to get the highs down

 

[marpow]

3. The Mac MEN220 is a stereo-only implementation of "Room Perfect." It is effective and relatively simple to implement. However, I suspect that after you successfully implement it, you will want to realize the same improvements with your multichannel playback

That is very interesting, I did not pick that up, and yes knowing me, I would want the same improvements for MCH listening.

Ceiling absorbers will help to get the highs down

Yes, GIK Acoustics did tell me that is the one piece I am missing.

 

[timbre4]

FWIW - I relented and did the Audyssey calibration included with the Denon AVR-X4300h one more time (4th try). And then it was magic! It glued everything together for me in this mancave/office room. It did make the RR main way loud, but I pulled that down and pleased with the results. I played recordings with fast panning moves where the sound died out and came back previously. Now they play evenly so I'm pretty pleased about that. It's so much more than channels volume itself.

 

[jimfisheye]

I built 9' tall floor to ceiling bass traps with Owen Corning 703 wrapped in burlap. Comes in 4' x 2' panels. I made triangle corner shaped pieces 2' x 1' deep in the middle. Cost under $200. Then a few absorber panels on the ceiling above the listening position and 4 height speakers. Couple more on the walls and a thick curtain. (About another $150 worth of stuff.)

Speakers positioned with tape measure and level.

That's the how and where. Why? Because I only want to hear the recording elements and not hear them bounce around my walls and ceiling. But you knew that. Just walk into a room and clap, whistle, and holler. If you hear a lot of reflection... that will color the audio. And your expensive speakers and amps are reduced to the sound of your walls.

EQ correction and all that...
Live, you do what you have to. Maybe the room adds to the sound in a good sounding way at the end too. Or at least you make it work. Maybe there are a couple frequencies that you have to really cut because they resonate like crazy in the room and would feedback if amplified. But you make the mix work with that. Screw all that for at home! Make the room at least make sense (dampening reflections) and put the speakers the same distances from the listening spot. The distance thing and correcting with delays... Sure, you can do that. But that leads to things getting skewed pretty weird anywhere else from the listening spot.

Do what you have to. Be convenient. The above was a lot of bang for the buck for me. You'd probably just put your display screen in front of you and not mount it sideways and then put up two mirrors to let you see it. And now you need to spend on expensive quality mirrors... Trying to find an analogy to what I see people do with speakers sometimes! It's not as intuitive as visual stuff but it really does work that way.

 

[Veganfloyd]

FWIW - I relented and did the Audyssey calibration included with the Denon AVR-X4300h one more time (4th try). And then it was magic! It glued everything together for me in this mancave/office room. It did make the RR main way loud, but I pulled that down and pleased with the results. I played recordings with fast panning moves where the sound died out and came back previously. Now they play evenly so I'm pretty pleased about that. It's so much more than channels volume itself.

Denon 3600 here, same result, including the way too loud rears. Disabling Audyssey Dynamic EQ changes the volume to what you would expect after volume-matching as part of the calibration.

 

[timbre4]

Denon 3600 here, same result, including the way too loud rears. Disabling Audyssey Dynamic EQ changes the volume to what you would expect after volume-matching as part of the calibration.

Thank you - I'd heard that advice mentioned before I had context to understand.

 

[marpow]

Looked into DIRAC LIVE, $849.00 plus cost of microphone, but certainly cheaper than units like the McIntosh Room Correction device.
This is how I do it, look, listen, watch and make a decision to the best of my ability.
My brain is full now, so nothing purchased, will continue this week.
Thanks for your support.

Bundle offer DIRAC LIVE
Room Correction Suite Multichannel + Bass Control​

Features​

• Room Correction Suite Multichannel
• Bass Control

Please note that measurement microphone is not included in the software purchase.
Start 14 Days free trial*
Buy now $849
* You will need a calibration microphone to complete the setup process.

 

[MTB Vince]

Ceiling absorbers will help to get the highs down

I would strongly second @IMachine's and GIK's suggestion of adding a substantial absorbent ceiling cloud @marpow. Even with an 11' ceiling height, I found a properly implemented ceiling cloud to be a very worthwhile addition to my overall treatment strategy. The only caveat being that optimal placement of the surface mounted ceiling cloud will impact the sorts of Atmos height speaker options that will work well with it. In-ceiling and low profile surface mounted Atmos speakers are likely off the table.

However small-ish conventional loudspeaker designs hung from sturdy adjustable ceiling mounts still work and actually will acoustically benefit from the same ceiling clouds used to treat the primary ceiling reflection of your bed loudspeakers.

 

[marpow]

I would strongly second @IMachine's and GIK's suggestion of adding a substantial absorbent ceiling cloud @marpow. Even with an 11' ceiling height, I found a properly implemented ceiling cloud to be a very worthwhile addition to my overall treatment strategy. The only caveat being that optimal placement of the surface mounted ceiling cloud will impact the sorts of Atmos height speaker options that will work well with it. In-ceiling and low profile surface mounted Atmos speakers are likely off the table.

However small-ish conventional loudspeaker designs hung from sturdy adjustable ceiling mounts still work and actually will acoustically benefit from the same ceiling clouds used to treat the primary ceiling reflection of your bed loudspeakers.

View attachment 99869
View attachment 99867
View attachment 99868

I totally agree with you 100%.
My fear as I have flush ceiling mount (4) speakers would be that the cloud panel would take away from the direct line signal to my seating area.
I built my Atmos room basically at the start of Atmos rooms being built, if I had to do over again I absolutely would do as you did with hang down speakers.
As I suspect and as you say my celling flush mount speakers are off the table when it comes to cloud.
However I am in process of doing a revamp of certain equipment, in research phase now, and possibly this year I will change from my flush mounts to hanging mounts like yours.
My flush mounts at tome of purchase was B&W's top of line. None of my other speakers are flush mount all cabinets.
What is your brand of hanging, if I may ask.
Thanks for the solid input.

 

[mkt]

REW + a UMIK-1 mic is a fun and educational way to see what's going on in your room. In the past at least, you could send your measurements to GIK and they'd give some suggestions. Also informative for before and after comparisons.

Here is a measurement from a couple of years ago.

 

[marpow]

REW + a UMIK-1 mic is a fun and educational way to see what's going on in your room. In the past at least, you could send your measurements to GIK and they'd give some suggestions. Also informative for before and after comparisons.

Here is a measurement from a couple of years ago.
View attachment 99871

This is another one of my research projects.
I think Dirac Live and REW are two separate applications?
Do you ever use them together?
Do you have advice on which would be better?
I have this idea in my head, that I got from McIntosh Room Correction, unfortunately they only do stereo, but they have a remote that you can press for your single listening area or another press for your group listening, more than one person.
I assume that either REW or Dirac Live are PC based and active all the time and they have settings where you can do the same as a remote but on your PC.
I guess I need to start studying some YouTubes?
What I would like

 

[Sal1950]

Looked into DIRAC LIVE, $849.00 plus cost of microphone, but certainly cheaper than units like the McIntosh Room Correction device.
This is how I do it, look, listen, watch and make a decision to the best of my ability.
My brain is full now, so nothing purchased, will continue this week.
Thanks for your support.

Bundle offer DIRAC LIVE​

Room Correction Suite Multichannel + Bass Control​

Features​

• Room Correction Suite Multichannel
• Bass Control

Please note that measurement microphone is not included in the software purchase.
Start 14 Days free trial*
Buy now $849
* You will need a calibration microphone to complete the setup process.

Dirac Live should be an excellent choice. Currently one of the best for a semi-automated correction system.
I really don't have "hands on" experience with it and was surprised by Kal's statement of it not being "click and go". But the truth is the outcome from any of these systems will be as dependent on the users input as anything. The more and bigger designs also become more involved and up to the user to "get right". Another great option available to you is the $200 Audyssey MultiEQ-X software, I would also consider this as an excellent choice. It will do just about anything you want to do in room correction.
OTOH, for a more professional, hand holding experience, you might want to look into Mitchco's Accurate Sound calibration service.. A great guy and a great service.
https://accuratesound.ca/

 

[Sal1950]

I think Dirac Live and REW are two separate applications?
Do you ever use them together?

Yes and Yes.
REW is mainly a measurement application that can be also be used to generate filters. But this comes with a very big learning curve and takes a lot of time and dedication to learn how to create the filters and implement them.

Dirac makes the measurements and creates the DRC filters almost automatically.

REW is often used to do "after the fact" measurements of how well Dirac or other DRC programs really did at accomplishing their semi-automated tasks.

 

[marpow]

Dirac Live should be an excellent choice. Currently one of the best for a semi-automated correction system.
I really don't have "hands on" experience with it and was surprised by Kal's statement of it not being "click and go". But the truth is the outcome from any of these systems will be as dependent on the users input as anything. The more and bigger designs also become more involved and up to the user to "get right". Another great option available to you is the $200 Audyssey MultiEQ-X software, I would also consider this as an excellent choice. It will do just about anything you want to do in room correction.
OTOH, for a more professional, hand holding experience, you might want to look into Mitchco's Accurate Sound calibration service.. A great guy and a great service.
https://accuratesound.ca/

Thanks I'm diving deep into this, seems interesting.
https://accuratesound.ca/

 

[marpow]

I think I'm going to give Mitch a try, he has a discount for today and tomorrow, cheaper than the mic and the bundle suite, etc.
Wish me luck.

 

[mkt]

I think I'm going to give Mitch a try, he has a discount for today and tomorrow, cheaper than the mic and the bundle suite, etc.
Wish me luck.

@AudiophileStyle is a fan
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits...ches-multichannel-hang-loose-convolver-r1140/

 

[Sal1950]

I think I'm going to give Mitch a try, he has a discount for today and tomorrow, cheaper than the mic and the bundle suite, etc.
Wish me luck.

I think that's an excellent choice.
All these various applications offer different levels of required user knowledge and input, taking from a couple days to a year or more of learning curve time. Mitch's service can take about 80% of the work and stress out of the learning curve and still achieve SOTA results.
There's just so many options, you buy your ticket and take your ride.