HiRez Poll Spinners, The - SPINNERS [Blu-Ray Audio]

[quicksrt]

I'll start by saying I have always been happy with Rhino's products and have never had any shipping problems either.
I love all of the Quadio releases so far except for this one. I'm the guy that gave it a 4 rating. I just don't understand how
the people at Rhino could know about the problems with the levels and do nothing. How the levels could be correct for
the old quad releases and wrong on the original master tapes doesn't make any sense at all.
The cost couldn't be much of an issue because adjusting the levels after the tapes have been digitized is pretty simple especially
for a professional engineer. I ended up adjusting the levels myself.
I used DVD Audio Extractor to extract and decode the quad audio tracks to mono tracks in WAV format.
I opened the tracks in Sound Forge 14 and adjusted the levels. Unfortunately, I don't have software to re-encode the tracks
back to DTS-HD Master audio so I had to make do with LPCM 4..0 WAV files. Here are settings I ended up using if anyone is
interestedView attachment 97511View attachment 97512View attachment 97513View attachment 97514View attachment 97515View attachment 97516View attachment 97517View attachment 97518View attachment 97519View attachment 97520View attachment 97521View attachment 97522View attachment 97523View attachment 97524View attachment 97525View attachment 97526

I think track 5 looks over-corrected on the left chan. A couple of other are borderline over. But 5 particularly stood out.

 

[Dynamic Editor]

Maybe it's just me, but it looks like on my screen that channel 1 of track three (Green Grass) as shown above it a bit too loud, and that the correction should be a slightly less than a correction, no? 1db less, or .5 db less? May as well nail it perfect which we are at it?

Maybe something like that.

 

[Greg Z]

I think track 5 looks over-corrected on the left chan. A couple of other are borderline over. But 5 particularly stood out.

Thanks for your input. I'll go back and play around with the levels some more. I mainly wanted to demonstrate how easily
the levels can be adjusted. Everything I did took about 2 hours at the most. That is including the time it took to take the
screen caps.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Its so hard to tell from graphs. They don't tell you what is being reproduced in the channels. A visually perceived overcorrection might actually be correct depending what else is recorded in that channel.

I would think, the most accurate way to do this is to play the front channels alone through headphones and move the center image to the center, assuming your left/right ear sensitivities are the same, and you can indeed define what should be in the center. Do the same with the rear pair if possible. Though the rear doesn't always have a center image.

I'm not sure we should be polluting a poll thread with this banter. I welcome a mod to move it.

I'd almost bet Rhino will make this right at some point, it probably won't hurt to formally let Rhino know we are unhappy with the release. Any suggestions @ForagingRhino ?

PS: the other 3 releases will be getting high marks from me.

 

[kfbkfb]

https://pspatialaudio.com/leq.htm
One possibility which could automatically adjust the relative volume levels of LF, RF, LB, RB (LF low volume level seems to be a dB or 2 different in each song).

Is there software than can evaluate and adjust quadraphonic audio using ITU BS.1779-3?


Kirk Bayne

 

[winopener]

Could this be a case of a degrading master? If at the last track rears are too strong compared to front, and going backward to the first track there's the need to raise something in order to keep levels, maybe the master had some storage issue or the tape hasn't aged well.
In that case loading up a good CD4 coversion (aludra, where are you?... ) and the bluray files could help to find out the correct levels for each channel on each track. If there's enough room, i will keep for the BR files as a reference the rears of the last track (=no volume lowering) and raise accordingly all the rest as needed.

 

[fredblue]

Could this be a case of a degrading master? If at the last track rears are too strong compared to front, and going backward to the first track there's the need to raise something in order to keep levels, maybe the master had some storage issue or the tape hasn't aged well.
In that case loading up a good CD4 coversion (aludra, where are you?... ) and the bluray files could help to find out the correct levels for each channel on each track. If there's enough room, i will keep for the BR files as a reference the rears of the last track (=no volume lowering) and raise accordingly all the rest as needed.

well there's nothing inherently wrong with the levels on my CD-4 conversion.

fidelity? now that's where we need aludra!

i tried converting in 2 copies of the Spinners CD-4 LP over the years, through multiple turntable, cartridge and demodulator permutations and both LPs had distortion issues in different places. i think in part because i was going for ultimate separation each time but that doesn't always result in problems with CD-4. unfortunately one disc is not in the best shape and the other disc looks pristine but i just don't think was that great a pressing to begin with, like a lot of WEA CD-4 vinyl.

further regarding levels, if you look at the Front Right and Rear Left channels of the Blu-ray they very often very closely resemble my CD-4 conversion from 2016 (AT440MLb thru a JVC 4DD-5) in terms of level and content. the Front Left is always lower level on the Blu-ray. the Rear Right is sometimes different on the Blu-ray, for the majority of the time however they are close.

 

[fredblue]

Makes wonder what people in attendance at the recent Rhino event in Cali thought of this one. I know that audio memory is fleeting, plus listening to sound put out by those Klipsch Jubilees has to also be a confounding factor. Still, I’m curious to find out if any of those folks experienced any buyers remorse when they had a chance to listen to the Spinners on their home systems.

i remember thinking that group of people seemed fairly underwhelmed when the Spinners came on.. the other selections seemed to go down better with the crowd

 

[Greg Z]

Could this be a case of a degrading master? If at the last track rears are too strong compared to front, and going backward to the first track there's the need to raise something in order to keep levels, maybe the master had some storage issue or the tape hasn't aged well.
In that case loading up a good CD4 coversion (aludra, where are you?... ) and the bluray files could help to find out the correct levels for each channel on each track. If there's enough room, i will keep for the BR files as a reference the rears of the last track (=no volume lowering) and raise accordingly all the rest as needed.

If the master was degraded I don't believe it would affect the levels and not affect the fidelity.
Also, I have started a thread in the Fix The Mix thread

 

[fredblue]

well this is about as hot off the press as you can get i just finished recording in Side 1 of the Spinners Quad LP about half an hour ago with the 'new old stock' AT15Sa cartridge that i got recently but haven't used yet.

(the AT15Sa is a vintage moving magnet cart from the 1970's with a Shibata stylus, made for CD-4 with the necessary higher frequency range ability in order to properly retrieve the 4-channel Quad from the LP. they aren't making these gems anymore sadly and i really lucked out with this purchase but i've been unable to test it out - until today!)

as you can see, everything is super balanced, all 4 channels - i literally did nothing. no level adjustment, no EQ, no noise reduction, no speed correction. nothing post-recording at all.



i had the CD-4 demodulator controls set for maximum separation (just past 3 o'clock on the pots, that's really as far as you can go before you start to get back to the difference signal!) and the 30kHz carrier level set to 6/10 (i could have pushed it further but distortion started to creep in).

seeing as it'd be impossible for the disc to separate out in this way if the Front Left channel were supposed to be at a lower level, i believe this is closer to how the Blu-ray levels should pan out. if anyone would like a sample or whatever, PM anytime.

i've feel like gone as far as i want to go with this now. i will hold off rating for now because if i were to score the Blu-ray 'as is', i would very reluctantly rate it a "5" and that feels unfair because what is there on the disc sounds great!

Rhino with the mastertapes should be able to produce a Blu-ray that utterly wipes the floor with anything a schmuck like me with a record player can produce and i'm sorry that hasn't happened in this instance. maybe there'll be a replacement, i don't know?

 

[gvl_guy]

I can't add much more than everyone else's comments. Sure, even without any measurements, I could tell the left front was a bit lower. My meters on my QRX-9001 showed it immediately. A slight balance adjustment in the front speakers fixed that easily. I found the surround mix very pleasing. And I absolutely adored the three hits in surround, I'll Be There, Could It Be I'm Falling in Love and One of a Kind Love Affair. My CD-4 album never sounded this good. I heard stuff I never noticed before, like extra stuff the strings do in I'll Be There.

I had to give this a 9 since I love the music! If the balance were better, I would have given this a 10.

 

[4-earredwonder]

well this is about as hot off the press as you can get i just finished recording in Side 1 of the Spinners Quad LP about half an hour ago with the 'new old stock' AT15Sa cartridge that i got recently but haven't used yet.

(the AT15Sa is a vintage moving magnet cart from the 1970's with a Shibata stylus, made for CD-4 with the necessary higher frequency range ability in order to properly retrieve the 4-channel Quad from the LP. they aren't making these gems anymore sadly and i really lucked out with this purchase but i've been unable to test it out - until today!)

as you can see, everything is super balanced, all 4 channels - i literally did nothing. no level adjustment, no EQ, no noise reduction, no speed correction. nothing post-recording at all.

View attachment 97561

i had the CD-4 demodulator controls set for maximum separation (just past 3 o'clock on the pots, that's really as far as you can go before you start to get back to the difference signal!) and the 30kHz carrier level set to 6/10 (i could have pushed it further but distortion started to creep in).

seeing as it'd be impossible for the disc to separate out in this way if the Front Left channel were supposed to be at a lower level, i believe this is closer to how the Blu-ray levels should pan out. if anyone would like a sample or whatever, PM anytime.

i've feel like gone as far as i want to go with this now. i will hold off rating for now because if i were to score the Blu-ray 'as is', i would very reluctantly rate it a "5" and that feels unfair because what is there on the disc sounds great!

Rhino with the mastertapes should be able to produce a Blu-ray that utterly wipes the floor with anything a schmuck like me with a record player can produce and i'm sorry that hasn't happened in this instance. maybe there'll be a replacement, i don't know?

WOW, Adam. Excellent endorsement that the SPINNERS Master Tapes aren't the culprit. Obviously an error in mastering. You ought to send this graph to RHINO for further evidence that their Quadio BD~A is suspect!

And now you have in the AT15Sa a reference Shibata tipped cartridge that will continue to make all your CD~4 vinyl sound as good as they possibly can!

YOU ARE THE MAN!

 

[barfle]

The Spinners were making music during a rather tumultuous period in my life, and their music held and still holds a lot of emotion for me. So getting this release was a no-brainer.

I have their “greatest hits” LP, which only has one or two songs of consequence that aren’t on this disc. But on this disc, there are definitely a couple of tracks that don’t make me feel good listening to them, so there’s a point on content. And, yes, the left front is a little low, but not terribly so, but another point lost on the mix. And, as noted above, some of the quad placement is a little off to my ears, “jarring” is an apt description. So it’s a 7 from me.

All that being said, I have never heard that music in such detail before, and that was delightful.

 

[ForagingRhino]

Rhino is aware and is working on making it right.
Apologies folks.

 

[edisonbaggins]

My beef with this release is the price. Why is it $25 for one album and no extra track in plain 4.0 when there are plenty of other releases in Atmos (or at least new mixes) available on Dutton Vocalion or Super Deluxe with sometimes up to three albums in surround? So 11/10 for the music, 2/10 for the release.

Even worse when it seems like there are technical shortcomings with this release, too.

Friend... I bet you're a super cool person. But this post... C'mon.

Many desirable releases are "locked" in super expensive box sets. $100+. $200+. $300...
Dutton-Vocalion is really the exception, NOT the norm. And, if we're being really honest, a lot of the titles are quite... quirky, let's say.
Rhino is releasing some highly desirable titles (at least to Quad nutjobs), and, IMHO, at a very reasonable price.

You're allowed to state your opinion. No problem there. Others are allowed to respond, though!
In the end, the market will prove whether they hit a reasonable price point, or not. But... I just don't understand complaining about the price, as it is.
Inflation... supply issues... As another member pointed out, I think actual data will show that they're pricing these things closer to a bargain than a rip-off.

 

[quicksrt]

The Spinners is my least favorite out of the latest four anyway. Nothing to to do with the technical qualities of the mix or the disc. It's AM singles pop of the era and a few very catchy tunes which I like, and a few that bore me. To my tastes the production here is outstanding as is the sound quality. I very often turn up my rear channels on most everything in quad that I play so that is not an issue either, love the rear channels here and they never seem too loud for me when I play the disc.

I’m leaning on an 8 for the disc. Sound 9, mix 9, material 7 = strong 8 probably.

I’ll listen again with light left front boost. But I doubt it will make me like (some of) the music much more.

 

[gvl_guy]

The Spinners is my least favorite out of the latest four anyway. Nothing to to do with the technical qualities of the mix or the disc. It's AM singles pop of the era and a few very catchy tunes it which I like, and a few that bore me. To my tastes the production here is outstanding as is the sound quality. I very often turn up my rear channels on most everything in quad that I play so that is not an issue either, love the rear channels here and they never seem too loud for me when I play the disc.

I’m leaning on an 8 for the disc. Sound 9, mix 9, material 7 = strong 8 probably.

I’ll listen again with light left from boost. But I doubt it will make me like the music much more.

I'm totally a "pop-tart," (a phrase coined by a music director at a radio station that I programmed back in the 80s.) This Spinners album was the one I was most excited about! Despite the "issues" and complaints, it still is my favorite of the discs. It's so awesome to hear tunes that I've heard thousands of times on the radio, on my turntable....and even played on the radio...sound so spectacular and crisp. I heard things I've never heard before on those great popular songs that made that group. I can't wait for the next batch with hopes of something else very pop, like Carly Simon, Average White Band or Bette Midler.

 

[svengaleekie]

Fully agree. Turned up my left front by 4.5 db and the it sounded much better. Pretty disappointed with this transfer issue even though I enjoy the sound quality overall.

I hadn't read your post before my first listen just now but that is exactly what I did, upped the left front by 4.5db and I was very satisfied with the result.

 

[baward]

I hadn't read your post before my first listen just now but that is exactly what I did, upped the left front by 4.5db and I was very satisfied with the result.

It did occur to me to say that, thanks for responding. I will give it a try when my copy arrives.

 

[Tres Discrete]

I hadn't read your post before my first listen just now but that is exactly what I did, upped the left front by 4.5db and I was very satisfied with the result.

@ForagingRhino had intimated that Rhino might “make it right” somehow…not sure where that stands…I have not opened mine yet awaiting word…