Subwoofer delay question

[LuvMyQuad]

I own and use an old school Sunfire Signature sub. I have also recently purchased an Emotiva MC-1 Atmos processor and also have an Emotiva UMC-200 5.1 processor still running in the system. I prefer the UMC-200 for analog sources and those rare times when I feel the need to use the internal DACs in my OPPO disc player. I can choose which processor is feeding the 5 channel main amp and the subwoofer by using a mechanical 6 channel switch unit.

Each of the surround processors is equipped with EMO-Q, which is Emotiva's house brand room EQ routine. The MC-1 has the newest EMO-Q version with additional features and functionality, but both Emotiva processors basically work the same way for room EQ. For the UMC-200, I have also used REW to setup and double check the results. The EMO-Q and the REW results are surprisingly close in most bands.

The processors test and set speaker gain and distance based in test tones picked up from their microphones. My sub is about 11 feet from my sweet spot/mic location. When I run Emo-Q from the MC-1 it returns 26.5 feet as the distance to the sub. When I run EMO-Q from the UMC-200 it returns 23 feet as the distance to the sub. For both processors the EMO-Q gets the main/surround distances correct to within an inch or two.

I have never found out the reason for this. I haven't tried to check this with REW either. I'm not even sure if REW will do this type of test.

I tried an experiment the other day and ran the calibration routine for both processors with the pickup mics at 1 foot in front of the subwoofer cone. It returned 6 feet for the MC-1 and 5 feet for the UMC-200.

AFAIK the Sunfire has no built in delay and no DSP. It does have configurable analog crossovers and level controls.

Any ideas on what is causing the EMO gear to see such a large delay with the sub signals?

 

[timothyemerson]

I own and use an old school Sunfire Signature sub. I have also recently purchased an Emotiva MC-1 Atmos processor and also have an Emotiva UMC-200 5.1 processor still running in the system. I prefer the UMC-200 for analog sources and those rare times when I feel the need to use the internal DACs in my OPPO disc player. I can choose which processor is feeding the 5 channel main amp and the subwoofer by using a mechanical 6 channel switch unit.

Each of the surround processors is equipped with EMO-Q, which is Emotiva's house brand room EQ routine. The MC-1 has the newest EMO-Q version with additional features and functionality, but both Emotiva processors basically work the same way for room EQ. For the UMC-200, I have also used REW to setup and double check the results. The EMO-Q and the REW results are surprisingly close in most bands.

The processors test and set speaker gain and distance based in test tones picked up from their microphones. My sub is about 11 feet from my sweet spot/mic location. When I run Emo-Q from the MC-1 it returns 26.5 feet as the distance to the sub. When I run EMO-Q from the UMC-200 it returns 23 feet as the distance to the sub. For both processors the EMO-Q gets the main/surround distances correct to within an inch or two.

I have never found out the reason for this. I haven't tried to check this with REW either. I'm not even sure if REW will do this type of test.

I tried an experiment the other day and ran the calibration routine for both processors with the pickup mics at 1 foot in front of the subwoofer cone. It returned 6 feet for the MC-1 and 5 feet for the UMC-200.

AFAIK the Sunfire has no built in delay and no DSP. It does have configurable analog crossovers and level controls.

Any ideas on what is causing the EMO gear to see such a large delay with the sub signals?

Interesting! I'm limited to Audyssey in my room (so can only comment on how that works in my space) and it accurately sets my sub distance to 4 metres/13 feet. I've double checked all the automatically-detected speaker distances with a tape measure and Audyssey got 'em all correct. I can only offer the opinion that setting the distance to 26 feet is the easiest way for the EQ to achieve what it's doing in your room.

Is there any furniture near or in the way of what your sub is producing? Mine is pointing directly at my shins when seated in the sweet spot and has a clear run with nothing in the way.

How does it sound? If you force your Emotiva to set the distance to 11 feet, does it change the way it sounds?

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Interesting! I'm limited to Audyssey in my room (so can only comment on how that works in my space) and it accurately sets my sub distance to 4 metres/13 feet. I've double checked all the automatically-detected speaker distances with a tape measure and Audyssey got 'em all correct. I can only offer the opinion that setting the distance to 26 feet is the easiest way for the EQ to achieve what it's doing in your room.

Is there any furniture near or in the way of what your sub is producing? Mine is pointing directly at my shins when seated in the sweet spot and has a clear run with nothing in the way.

How does it sound? If you force your Emotiva to set the distance to 11 feet, does it change the way it sounds?

There is no furniture directly in the way. I'll have to wait on determining how it sounds when adjusted for distance. Changing the Emotiva distance settings will certainly change the delay, but how audible it is?

Here is another thought. The Sunfire has two driver cones. One cone is an active driver. The other is a passive radiator that moves to the internal pressure of the cabinet. I believe I have the passive driver facing the listening position, which is probably wrong. I also measured that cone for the tests outlined above. I believe that is wrong also.

I'm going to re-orient the sub so the active driver is facing the listening position and see how things change. Its not supposed to matter how it faces, but with something like measurement delay, it may make a difference.

 

[par4ken]

Here is another thought. The Sunfire has two driver cones. One cone is an active driver. The other is a passive radiator that moves to the internal pressure of the cabinet. I believe I have the passive driver facing the listening position, which is probably wrong. I also measured that cone for the tests outlined above. I believe that is wrong also.

The passive radiator will be radiating out of phase compared with the driven driver.

 

[timothyemerson]

There is no furniture directly in the way. I'll have to wait on determining how it sounds when adjusted for distance. Changing the Emotiva distance settings will certainly change the delay, but how audible it is?

Here is another thought. The Sunfire has two driver cones. One cone is an active driver. The other is a passive radiator that moves to the internal pressure of the cabinet. I believe I have the passive driver facing the listening position, which is probably wrong. I also measured that cone for the tests outlined above. I believe that is wrong also.

I'm going to re-orient the sub so the active driver is facing the listening position and see how things change. Its not supposed to matter how it faces, but with something like measurement delay, it may make a difference.

Yeah, I'd point the active driver at me too. Could be the active and passive radiator, potential phase differences and orientation are all resulting in the Emotiva calculating that 26' is the optimal setting for the EQ doing what it's doing.

In terms of adjusting the delay, I can only offer that I haven't found any audible difference in my room by adjusting the distance with a small REL sub on a Yamaha receiver and a Marantz, and also my current SVS sub and the Marantz. Probably be different for your set-up though - just a FYI for what I've found (I've just left it as Audyssey currently calculated it for now though as it all sounds good to me).

Let us know how it goes!

 

[LuvMyQuad]

The passive radiator will be radiating out of phase compared with the driven driver.

Correct, but the EMO-Q routine has the capability to determine that, and it has in the past, but didn't this time. The sub also has a phase control dial on it. So the absolute phase is adjustable.

Im just wondering if EMO-Q is looking for the frequency it sent and cant find it until it bounces off of a surface that may be 10 feet away leading to an erroneously long delay time (distance).

It makes me wonder what I've been hearing over the last few months, since I moved the sub with the passive side facing the sweet spot.

 

[Hamilton59]

IMy sub is about 11 feet from my sweet spot/mic location. When I run Emo-Q from the MC-1 it returns 26.5 feet as the distance to the sub. When I run EMO-Q from the UMC-200 it returns 23 feet as the distance to the sub. For both processors the EMO-Q gets the main/surround distances correct to within an inch or two.

Is your sub connected using a hard wire, or are you using a wireless adapter? I've seen long distances like that when I'm using my blue tooth wireless adapter.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Is your sub connected using a hard wire, or are you using a wireless adapter? I've seen long distances like that when I'm using my blue tooth wireless adapter.

Hard wire. 4 meters long.

 

[timothyemerson]

Correct, but the EMO-Q routine has the capability to determine that, and it has in the past, but didn't this time. The sub also has a phase control dial on it. So the absolute phase is adjustable.

Im just wondering if EMO-Q is looking for the frequency it sent and cant find it until it bounces off of a surface that may be 10 feet away leading to an erroneously long delay time (distance).

It makes me wonder what I've been hearing over the last few months, since I moved the sub with the passive side facing the sweet spot.

Yeah, could be the active driver is bouncing off the wall, then all the way back to the mic and interfering with what the passive radiator is sending out. All conjecture at my part but I find it interesting.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Yeah, could be the active driver is bouncing off the wall, then all the way back to the mic and interfering with what the passive radiator is sending out. All conjecture at my part but I find it interesting.

I think that idea is spot on. I just re-oriented the sub with the active driver facing the sweet spot and re-ran EMO-Q on the UMC-200. It pegged the sub at 9.5 feet and out of phase. It makes perfect sense. I'm willing to call it solved even.

Wow. A lesson for all you kids out there. 1. Be careful how you measure bass response on a loudspeaker with passive bass radiators. 2. Don't let your significant other talk you into moving your sub once you have its orientation established. 3. Don't let some a$$houl put it in place with the passive radiator facing the listening position.

I feel so ...... DOH

 

[DuncanS]

Some thoughts!

• The cabling has no effect (its way too short).
• All filters/cross-overs will add delay, this delay is related to the filter order, the higher the order the more delay.
• It is also possible that there is a capacitor in series with the mic output to limit low frequencies, which will act as a High Pass filter.
• Plus it is likely that there are High Pass filters in the EMO's (possibly different as different models), so all these will add an effective delay into the measurement chain, so that could explain the difference.
• At 100Hz the wavelength of the sound wave is 3.3m/10ft 10", so room acoustics will also come into play at low frequencies as well, and there will be standing waves & nulls at various frequencies due to the room shape/dimensions etc. which will make it difficult to be accurate.

 

[timothyemerson]

I think that idea is spot on. I just re-oriented the sub with the active driver facing the sweet spot and re-ran EMO-Q on the UMC-200. It pegged the sub at 9.5 feet and out of phase. It makes perfect sense. I'm willing to call it solved even.

Wow. A lesson for all you kids out there. 1. Be careful how you measure bass response on a loudspeaker with passive bass radiators. 2. Don't let your significant other talk you into moving your sub once you have its orientation established. 3. Don't let some a$$houl put it in place with the passive radiator facing the listening position.

I feel so ...... DOH

Awesome! Passive radiators can sure look like the active driver- I've gotten them around wrong way on smaller subs before. Good to hear you're happy with the result.

Does it sound any different? Probably need to sit down for some critical listening but let us know if it's any better/worse/the same.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

So you don't think I'm a complete idiot here, this all came about after I embarked on loading the new MC-1 and its companion Atmos amp into my equipment rack. For the last month or so its been all on top while I tested and played with it. Of course, just popping the new stuff in wasn't good enough, I tore the whole system down, cleaned it, blew out the dust. Added new cabling, upgraded the HDMI cables to 4k compatible, added the switching and an HDMI splitter. I even modified the rack by opening up the rear access windows and added a new shelf. Through all this I left the EQ off and just kept turning down the sub because it seemed too loud.

You know the stories you hear about when some guy claims he made an upgrade to his system and his wife heard the improvement from the next room and commented on it? Mine says: when you play music now all you hear up here is a thumping bass line. You cant make out the music at all (this is the 2nd floor she's talking about). I tell her, it could be the new Atmos speakers in the ceiling, but they shouldn't carry much bass and they aren't always on. Then I'm in a bathroom 2 rooms away and wonder why stuff is rattling so much more than it used to....

It dosent do that now. I can listen to Come Together without feeling like the house is going to rattle apart.

Still a lot of tuning to go. When I reoriented the sub, adjusted the phase to zero and re ran the EQ setup it correctly positioned the sub at 10.8 ft and in phase.

 

[kap'n krunch]

Am definitely considering ditching Marantz/Denon and going for an Emotiva setup once I dump my "dying every 20 minutes" Marantz POS

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Am definitely considering ditching Marantz/Denon and going for an Emotiva setup once I dump my "dying every 20 minutes" Marantz POS

If you don't need Atmos, I'd recommend looking for a used UMC-200 or a used XMC-1. The XMC-1 can be upgraded to HDMI 2.0 if you need it (some already have the upgraded board) and it has Dirac EQ. Both the UMC-200 and the XMC-1 are better all around surround processors than an MC-1. The higher priced processors still seem too buggy for the money IMO..

 

[timothyemerson]

So you don't think I'm a complete idiot here, this all came about after I embarked on loading the new MC-1 and its companion Atmos amp into my equipment rack. For the last month or so its been all on top while I tested and played with it. Of course, just popping the new stuff in wasn't good enough, I tore the whole system down, cleaned it, blew out the dust. Added new cabling, upgraded the HDMI cables to 4k compatible, added the switching and an HDMI splitter. I even modified the rack by opening up the rear access windows and added a new shelf. Through all this I left the EQ off and just kept turning down the sub because it seemed too loud.

You know the stories you hear about when some guy claims he made an upgrade to his system and his wife heard the improvement from the next room and commented on it? Mine says: when you play music now all you hear up here is a thumping bass line. You cant make out the music at all (this is the 2nd floor she's talking about). I tell her, it could be the new Atmos speakers in the ceiling, but they shouldn't carry much bass and they aren't always on. Then I'm in a bathroom 2 rooms away and wonder why stuff is rattling so much more than it used to....

It dosent do that now. I can listen to Come Together without feeling like the house is going to rattle apart.

Still a lot of tuning to go. When I reoriented the sub, adjusted the phase to zero and re ran the EQ setup it correctly positioned the sub at 10.8 ft and in phase.

Nice. All the rattling was probably due to the active sub driver pointing at the wall so your whole house was getting the "near-field" experience!

 

[Guy Robinson]

I don't use anything for my 3 subs I just moved and adjusted them by listening. I have two of the subs pointed at the back wall. The front sub is pointed forwards.