Surround Sound Downloads (DSD)

[Fourplay]

Hey All,

I am trying to serve as an advocate with some industry people to get more archival quad mixes released, and also to encourage the release of 5.1 mixes which were completed but then shelved. One person has asked me to ask you a question. That question is: how many of us in this community have the capability to play multichannel DSD files which are not encoded on a disc. An example would be a .dsf file, which would be downloadable.

Perhaps those here who know how to play such a file could describe how to do so to those of us who do not know.

An example of a box that will reproduce full native DSD can be found here: http://www.exasound.com/e28DAC/e28DAC.aspx At $3,300 it is a tad (!) steep for my resources, but this may be the start of more units to follow with better pricing.

I guess the other question I personally have which we may not ourselves know is: when a new surround title is released, how many are being sold? In other words, what is the market for this material?

Please chime in here to give us all some perspective.

Thanks!

Ken

 

[steelydave]

I would say a very small percentage of people here who have multichannel setups have the capability to play dsf files. dsf files are like a niche within a niche, and I would imagine it will be 2-3 years at least before you see dsf playback in sub-$500 hardware, if it catches on at all.

I would strongly urge any companies that want to release multichannel downloads to consider 5.1 FLAC files. FLAC is open source, and stand alone players to play the files are cheap and plentiful, from the $100 WD TV Live player, to what I use, the Popcorn Hour A-300 (which is about $250), not to mention any computer made in the last decade.

Fourplay, if you would like help advocating this kind of thing to industry people, please get in touch via PM with me as I would love to help - I have time on my hands and a wealth of knowledge to contribute.

 

[bmoura]

Hey All,

I am trying to serve as an advocate with some industry people to get more archival quad mixes released, and also to encourage the release of 5.1 mixes which were completed but then shelved. One person has asked me to ask you a question. That question is: how many of us in this community have the capability to play multichannel DSD files which are not encoded on a disc. An example would be a .dsf file, which would be downloadable.

Perhaps those here who know how to play such a file could describe how to do so to those of us who do not know.

An example of a box that will reproduce full native DSD can be found here: http://www.exasound.com/e28DAC/e28DAC.aspx At $3,300 it is a tad (!) steep for my resources, but this may be the start of more units to follow with better pricing.

I guess the other question I personally have which we may not ourselves know is: when a new surround title is released, how many are being sold? In other words, what is the market for this material?

Please chime in here to give us all some perspective.

Thanks!

Ken

Thanks for your advocacy Ken. There are some other folks out there, including myself, who are also doing a bit of advocacy to get more Surround DSD Downloads out there.
To date, there are already some out there from Channel Classics and David Elias as well as some Surround DXD Downloads from 2L.

Some added thoughts:

1. I've posted some info on DSD Downloads - Surround and Stereo - over on our SACD Multichannel Forum.
See https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?11-SACD-Multi-Channel-Discussion for a look.

2. The Oppo 103 and 105 Blu-Ray players can play back Stereo and Surround DSD Files correctly via their USB ports.
Oppo probably doesn't publicly share sales figures, but this indicates that a lot of people already have a DSD Download playback player today.
I think this is the most cost effective DSD Surround Sound File Playback option out there to date.
See Stereophile article at http://www.stereophile.com/content/news-flash-oppo-now-plays-dsd-files

3. Mytek offers drivers and instructions to link 3 of their Stereo-192 DSD Converters for Surround Playback as interesting another choice.
Review by Ted_B in QQ's SACD Multichannel Discussion area at https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...-DSD-playback-solution-with-Mytek-and-J-RIver!

4. There will be a panel on the state of DSD Downloads at RMAF in Denver in a few weeks. You'll want to check it out.
See https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?18181-DSD-Downloads-Panel-at-RMAF for details.

5. A video of last year's DSD Downloads Panel from RMAF 2012 is on You Tube.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj7d7Jnx0xc

6. The most interest I've seen on this to date is on the Computer Audiophile and The Hi Rez Music Circle section of Audio Circle. I'd suggest dropping by and checking those forums and user comments out.

 

[fredblue]

a lot of QQ-ers "only" have BDP-83's, 93's and 95's and have no real need/desire (?) to upgrade to the 103 or 105, so no DSD download capability there.

we're all on budgets so the .dsf route seems a non-starter if numbers of uptakers are on the agenda.. it's out of most people's price reach at this stage.

I'm with steelydave, 5.1 FLAC all the way.

I'd still rather have silver/gold-pressed discs but if this really is the way it's going I'll reluctantly go with it if its in a format that has:
- the most flexibility,
- sacrifices no audible/tangible quality
- and has a level of affordability in compatible hardware.

 

[kap'n krunch]

a lot of QQ-ers "only" have BDP-83's, 93's and 95's and have no real need/desire (?) to upgrade to the 103 or 105, so no DSD download capability there.

we're all on budgets so the .dsf route seems a non-starter if numbers of uptakers are on the agenda.. it's out of most people's price reach at this stage.

I'm with steelydave, 5.1 FLAC all the way.

I'd still rather have silver/gold-pressed discs but if this really is the way it's going I'll reluctantly go with it if its in a format that has:
- the most flexibility,
- sacrifices no audible/tangible quality
- and has a level of affordability in compatible hardware.

I guess "most" does not include me... I have a good ole' DV-980H !!!

 

[fredblue]

I guess "most" does not include me... I have a good ole' DV-980H !!!

oy vey already! I said "a lot" not Mickey "Most", El Kapitan!

 

[kap'n krunch]

oy vey already! I said "a lot" not Mickey "Most", El Kapitan!

well , Achtung Baby!! (btw, I LOVED that Tin Machine Live CD!)

 

[Robert van Diggele]

Thanks Fourplay to get more 5.1 downloads available. Although I have a Oppo 105EU, I prefer shiney discs and as downloads PCM/Flac files. Why DSD anyway? Flac is much more common.

 

[ted_b]

I am a huge advocate of multichannel computer audio, and had the luxury and wonderful privilege of being the first to both review and prototype two different computer audio file-based multichannel DSD DAC setups (Mytek and exaSound). For the Mytek I wrote a mini-review and published it ehre, on Computer Audiophile (where I am a reviewer) and on Audio Circle (where I created and moderate the HiRez Circle). For the exaSound I wrote a formal review which is on the CA homepage.

I am also the editor of a major classical recording label's new to-be-announced download site where they are planning to release their entire catalog in both 2 channel and multichannel DSF (fully tagged, that's my main job...metadata) download. They are signing up other labels as we speak.

Also, as we know...Acoustic Sounds DSD download site has signed up folks like Sony Music. Now it is becoming known that they will release their multichannel (currently mostly three channel, like RCA Living Stereo, and the Nat King Cole releases) downloads soon, too. And boutique sites like David Elias's homepage has his multichannel downloads available.

I have almost 1000 surround titles ripped to multichannel DSF (as well as 5.1 DVD-Audio and BluRay rips in 24 bit PCM) and love having the ability, from my listening chair, to choose amongst them, even amongst tracks. Jriver MC19 and Jremote are my playback tools.

Here are my recent DSD multichannel reviews:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/539-exasound-e28-multichannel-usb-dac-review/
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f...ti-channel-dsd-playback-solution-mytek-14946/

 

[0tto]

if there goes not WWI then WWII. if not WWII then cold war. if not cold war then format's war.
damn, why we cannot live without?
i'm personally do not have issues to play any formats through PC. if i need, i can do authoring of audio
onto DVD-A, BD-A or SACD-R and play it through standalone gears. but it's not about me or QQ community
which has and shares wealth of knowledge . it's about how to attract more people to lossless surround format.

by making this task complicated, involving complex learning or obtaining expensive hardware - industry in fact
shooting itself in feet with the following declaration " there aren't interest/demand on the market for such format".
as was said above, there are flac (free) codec, which familiar to majority.
there aren't any advantages over the flac in DSD, DXD, DIFF or whatever else industry will introduce to add few
more bucks to the price tag for an exotics.

the more simplistic way in delivery to end user industry will employ, the higher sale figures and thus success
we all will see at the end.

 

[ted_b]

This is not a format war discussion, but simply a new ability to take advantage of DSD surround titles (that already exist) and computer audio tools. There is no way this niche multichannel computer audio market will reach the masses, so making it Mp3 surround is not any solution. No one here, especially me, has said DSD is better than PCM. Great recordings are great, and poor recordings are poor....format agnostic. But DSD availability (the 2 channel and multichannel potential is 7500 SACD titles and countless DSD archived recordings from the likes of Sony, etc) is like finding a new vein of precious metals in an abandoned mine shaft. Let's dig it up and add to our wealth. Who cares if its gold or silver.

Personally, I want to hear as close to the master tape as possible (whether it's PCM or DSD). No downsampling or dummying down for me, thanks.

 

[SMS]

Hey All,

I am trying to serve as an advocate with some industry people to get more archival quad mixes released, and also to encourage the release of 5.1 mixes which were completed but then shelved. One person has asked me to ask you a question. That question is: how many of us in this community have the capability to play multichannel DSD files which are not encoded on a disc. An example would be a .dsf file, which would be downloadable.

Perhaps those here who know how to play such a file could describe how to do so to those of us who do not know.

An example of a box that will reproduce full native DSD can be found here: http://www.exasound.com/e28DAC/e28DAC.aspx At $3,300 it is a tad (!) steep for my resources, but this may be the start of more units to follow with better pricing.

I guess the other question I personally have which we may not ourselves know is: when a new surround title is released, how many are being sold? In other words, what is the market for this material?

Please chime in here to give us all some perspective.

Thanks!

Ken

Ken,

Thanks so much for trying to get archived surround mixes released! I sincerely hope you are successful.

I, personally, do not have the ability to play a multichannel DSD file. I have an Oppo BDP83se, and have not had a good enough reason to upgrade to the 105 yet. If multichannel DSD became more prominent, perhaps I would.

But, I highly encourage you to consider multi-channel FLAC format. The encoding/decoding software is free and it is more widely supported by software and hardware. Those that prefer a physical disk can burn a DVDA or Bluray format disk with free/cheap software. You can't do that with DSD as far as I know.

I don't want to start a format war, but the electronic engineer in me believes that PCM is better than DSD.

All of this points to FLAC being my preferred format. I can't think of a single advantage to DSD, but others will have a different opinion.

How about you give the users a choice of downloading either DSD or FLAC? Disk space is cheap.

 

[Fourplay]

Hey All,

Fantastic! Keep em coming! This gives me plenty of homework. I will be attending the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest (anyone else? wanna meetup?). Thanks for the heads up on the panel. I will make that a priority and try to bring your comments with me if they open the floor.

My basic mission statement is that I love surround audio and would like to see existing material be more available (not always falling out of print), and of course would like to encourage new mixes by excellent engineers. Feel free to contribute ideas to my "elevator speech" which I can carry to represent our cause if I am lucky enough to gain any real access.

I am in the process of trying to quantify the market. Does anyone here have sales data on new surround titles?

Thanks!

Ken

 

[kap'n krunch]

Hi Ken,

Nope, can't play DSD and would not be interested in them...now 96/24 FLACs , YES!!
Especially Multichannel!

Good luck fighting against the windmills!

kap'n

 

[timbre4]

Ken,

Thanks indeed for the surround advocacy!

1. If its not surround, I'm not interested.

2. I am a disc buyer; I too would embrace multi channel FLAC quite readily, not so for DSD.

I appreciate the efforts to get this going!

Tim

 

[bmoura]

I'll second the motion for mining the extensive catalog of Stereo and Surround SACD titles and making them available as DSD Downloads. As fans of QQ know, over the years there have been many ways to enjoy 4 Channel, 5.1 Channel and even 7.1 Channel Surround Sound. It would be a shame to miss out on an opportunity to encourage additional interest in Surround Sound by not cheering on the folks bringing DSD Downloads to market.

Another benefit will be to provide access to Surround Sound music that may have been missed when these physical discs first appeared and then went out of print (as the record companies call it). Most fans here have want lists of albums they missed when first released. It would be great to have access to that music as a simple Surround Sound DSD Download vs. paying hundreds - and in some cases over $1,000 - to pick up such a rarity on eBay. The "Shocker Log" here shows the extent to which some have gone to pick up those very desirable, but out of print Surround Sound Titles. (See https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...Bay-Shocker-Log-Amazing-Prices-for-Rare-Discs )

While I enjoy and continue to buy discs, even I can see the writing on the wall. Younger music fans don't have optical drives in their laptops, tablets, etc. and in most cases don't buy physical discs. Record labels and even artists can certainly appreciate the ease (and lower up front costs) of posting music files on a server for sale vs. arranging to have discs made, warehoused, etc. See C/Net's article on trying to make a living selling CDs at http://news.cnet.com/8301-13526_3-10369956-27.html#! Even 4 years ago that was challenging.

I'd also give a shout out to Ted_B and his excellent guide to converting SACDs to DSD files. It's very easy and provides a running start to developing your own library of DSD files as the DSD Download market begins to take off.

Bottom line, this should be an exciting new channel for Surround Sound music to arrive. I'm looking forward to it - and have already picked up some Surround DSD Downloads. I say, bring on more - my Oppo is waiting!

 

[skindzier]

Can do either dsd or flac. Get 'er done!

 

[0tto]

it is format's war, only now it's shifted from physical world into virtual world of i-net.
14 y.a. when DVD-Audio was close to be declared as a new generation of delivery music to replace CD,
only Philips and Sony abstained and did spend tonns of money to push SACD.
in result no one gained anything.
now it seems we're witnessing a new spin of an old war.
when computer community world wide seems finally had come to agreement that flac is most sufficient format
for distribution of HiRez/Surround as downloadable file, then here someone from industry comes up with idea
that is contradictory to prevailing opinion. what in the heck matter with these folks?
i glad for some of "choosen" who has enough funds to keep themselves up to date newest tech.toys, but you
are even less than in minority. please take off slippers off your eyes and tell me, how you in such fewer amount
are expecting to keep sales number high enough to even if not make these mega labels happy but at least to sustain
their interest to continue this.
it's seems like personal ego has way overwhelming, than concern about fate of HiRez Surround on the greater scale.
as i said above, here no any issues to utilize any forms/formats but i very clearly can see no future in multiple of
different formats for distribution because that's way to nowhere. we have been there.
do we need to get into this crap again?

 

[hirez]

Hey All,

I am trying to serve as an advocate with some industry people to get more archival quad mixes released, and also to encourage the release of 5.1 mixes which were completed but then shelved. One person has asked me to ask you a question. That question is: how many of us in this community have the capability to play multichannel DSD files which are not encoded on a disc. An example would be a .dsf file, which would be downloadable.

Perhaps those here who know how to play such a file could describe how to do so to those of us who do not know.

An example of a box that will reproduce full native DSD can be found here: http://www.exasound.com/e28DAC/e28DAC.aspx At $3,300 it is a tad (!) steep for my resources, but this may be the start of more units to follow with better pricing.

I guess the other question I personally have which we may not ourselves know is: when a new surround title is released, how many are being sold? In other words, what is the market for this material?

Please chime in here to give us all some perspective.

Thanks!

Ken

I plan on getting an Oppo player so I can play DSD downloads. I prefer MCH and classic rock music and would buy immediately any of Renaissance's albums 2 thru 5 as MCH or stereo downloads.

 

[hirez]

Hey All,

I am trying to serve as an advocate with some industry people to get more archival quad mixes released, and also to encourage the release of 5.1 mixes which were completed but then shelved. One person has asked me to ask you a question. That question is: how many of us in this community have the capability to play multichannel DSD files which are not encoded on a disc. An example would be a .dsf file, which would be downloadable.

Perhaps those here who know how to play such a file could describe how to do so to those of us who do not know.

An example of a box that will reproduce full native DSD can be found here: http://www.exasound.com/e28DAC/e28DAC.aspx At $3,300 it is a tad (!) steep for my resources, but this may be the start of more units to follow with better pricing.

I guess the other question I personally have which we may not ourselves know is: when a new surround title is released, how many are being sold? In other words, what is the market for this material?

Please chime in here to give us all some perspective.

Thanks!

Ken

I plan on buying an Oppo player for playing DSD downloads. My preference is MCH but with multichannel stereo I will buy/play stereo DSD files.