Why the music industry might not release too many discrete surround recordings

[Timm Rautmann]

Hi, there everybody out there!
I agree with all the other posters.

Quote (Cai Campbell):
“In any event, I agree that many recent surround titles are not as agressively discrete as I would like. Indeed, there really isn't much point when you can get nearly the same effect with sythesized stereo.”

This issue really is quite a problem with modern surround releases. Here the new Sinatra DVD Audio release is a good example. While the Sinatra DVD Audio surround is not very discrete – you will get better results when you play the Sinatra CDs and pass it through a QSD 2 decoder.

Quote Quadro-Action:
“- why not taken the "old" quadraphonic mastertapes? From Frank Sinatra excist 5 quadraphonic productions (1 live (The Main Event) and 4 of studio recodings.”

I totally agree with Dietrich. Why the record companies do not re-release the original Quad Mix??
A real Quad discrete mix will sound better than sythesized stereo and we all know that modern surround technique is capable of reproducing discete surround sound – only if the record companies will press things foreward.

But are they really stand behind true surround – or are they hinder this development?

Let me throw in some speculation of why the modern surround hi-rez is not developing that well as we might wish it to be. [Of course the are also good releases – like Queen The Game, Eric Claption Reptile, etc. to name a few]:

1. Where are the orginal quad mastertapes – do they still exist? My broadcasting experience – I work for the 2. largest broadcasting CD / Tape archive in Europe – tells me that after a while tape get erased to save tape material and ½"/1"/2" tape or tape material for digital 48 track mastering is expensive!! Do the record companies still have them – I doubt it. Another Quad friend of the Quad fans here in Germany, was once managing the Quad releases in Germany for RCA in the seventies – he is very doubtfull about this question.

2. My experience with people responsible for archiving mastertapes tells me, that they do not have much interest in discete surround.
Most of them still believe Stereo is standard!!!! If I talk to them about Quad [That Quad is a real improvement to Stereo]– they only respond – I only have two ears, or whatever excuses. Why are so ignorant??:
The reason is simple: They possess 1000s of CDs/LPs and do not what to accept that there might be something better then what they have – High End ?? Stereo!!! I think top managers of the record industry might think the same way – thus they might hinder the development of surround.

3. An other presumption is that 90% of the releases only exist in Stereo – multitrackmasters get erased to save money. How should the record industry should react – if the majority of the consumers realize that disrecte surround sound is a real improvement to Stereo and synethized Stereo. They are not able to rerelease all good music in discrete surround.

Therefore isn’t it much easier and cheaper for them – just to release some few true discrete surround titles and then releasing doubtful fake surround sound titles, so that the majority of the consumers will finally go back to 2 channel stereo surround – because they then may believe: “I do not need this "multichannel surround cloud" anyway!! I am satisfied with Stereo or synethised Stereo” -- and this only because the majority of consumers do not know how a real quad or multichannel discrete recording is sounding like -- better then everything they listen to?!!

What do you think about my assumptions?
Timm

 

[Q-Eight]

Most multi-billion dollar corporations are like huge, lumbering dinosaurs.... it takes an AWFUL lot to get them to move. Besides, if it failed in the 70's..... why are they going to try again? To fail a second time? I think it's that whole "Fool me once...." train of thought.

Honestly, I think if we educated the masses, there may become a market for multi-channel recordings again. Problem is, most people don't even realize it exists. I'm 22.... and NONE of my friends - older or younger - have ever heard of Quadraphonics. Yet, when I play some Q8's for them, I always get the same reaction: "WOW! That's cool!"

Then, you have to look at profit margins. Sure, there may be a market right now as there are a handful of people who crave multi-channel music. But, is that market niche profitable? At this current time, probably not.

I doubt it'll ever happen. It's yet another case of the lesser technology becomming more popular.

 

[Cai Campbell]

In my (not so humble) opinion, if the multi-track tapes cannot be found or do not exist, then the title in question should not be slated for release in surround sound. Period.

Having the original multi-track tapes in hand should be a hard and fast requirement before even considering re-release of a title in surround-sound. I'm sick to death of these pseudo-surround retrofits. If there is a lack of legacy multi-track material, concentrate on the new stuff! There is a wealth of newer material that SCREAMS for release in a true multi-channel format!

 

[Scottmoose]

In my (not so humble) opinion, if the multi-track tapes cannot be found or do not exist, then the title in question should not be slated for release in surround sound. Period.

Having the original multi-track tapes in hand should be a hard and fast requirement before even considering re-release of a title in surround-sound. I'm sick to death of these pseudo-surround retrofits. If there is a lack of legacy multi-track material, concentrate on the new stuff! There is a wealth of newer material that SCREAMS for release in a true multi-channel format!

True. Very true sadly. Why bother purchacing an expensive SACD / DVD-A that's merely a stereo title wrung through an unwrap process when you can get arguably better results 99.99% of the time by buying a copy of whatever album it so happens to be on nice, simple redbook cd, and then feeding it through Dolby ProLogicII; Variomatrix; Tate Logic; Circle Surround or an SQ Logic decoder? No 'hall effects' either, unlike a large number of these unwrapped titles on sale (take a bow, Silverline!).
I for one, vote with my wallet. (and vote thanks to Jim Fosgate et al :banana: )
Scott

 

[bizmopeen]

True. Very true sadly. Why bother purchacing an expensive SACD / DVD-A that's merely a stereo title wrung through an unwrap process when you can get arguably better results 99.99% of the time by buying a copy of whatever album it so happens to be on nice, simple redbook cd, and then feeding it through Dolby ProLogicII; Variomatrix; Tate Logic; Circle Surround or an SQ Logic decoder? No 'hall effects' either, unlike a large number of these unwrapped titles on sale (take a bow, Silverline!).
I for one, vote with my wallet. (and vote thanks to Jim Fosgate et al :banana: )
Scott

Hear, hear! (No pun intended. If I did intend one, I would have written "hear, hear, hear, hear", this being a quad board and all. But I digress...) No use muddying the waters when there are plenty of possible catalog titles out there for which the multitracks do exist. And, hey, here's a crazy idea: if you don't have the multitracks for a title already released in quad, why not USE THE QUAD MASTER?? (Assuming it exists, of course. But how many people noted that Dylan's "Nashville Skyline", "Planet Waves" and "Desire" SACDs could have had multichannel mixes if this logic was followed...?)

 

[Cai Campbell]

But how many people noted that Dylan's "Nashville Skyline", "Planet Waves" and "Desire" SACDs could have had multichannel mixes if this logic was followed...?)

Yep, yep and yep. I just received the Dylan SACD box set today and I was dumbfounded to see that these titles were not multichannel. I knew that some were M/C and some were not, but I thought for sure the original quad titles would be released as M/C SACD's! Go figure...

 

[Quadro-Action]

Yep, yep and yep. I just received the Dylan SACD box set today and I was dumbfounded to see that these titles were not multichannel. I knew that some were M/C and some were not, but I thought for sure the original quad titles would be released as M/C SACD's! Go figure...

Indeed, sometimes we must wonder, which titles the commercial people at the software-firms will pick up for making a multi-channel version.Most of them must be absolute greenhorns without a knowledge, that there has been already surround-productions before their times. Instead of a surround-rerealization with existing quadraphonic mastertaps, there are taken incomprehensible such oldies as "Sinatra at the Sands" or "Sam Cooke at the Copa" fom the 60's and minimal-track recoding-tapes with a questionable surround-result. By the way also a joke: RCA Spain has produced a few (stereo)-CD's (Hugo Montenegro) with a big "QuadraDisc" symbol ont the cover. So I have for fun "Hugo in Wonderland" also in 2-channel "Surround" by a CD. Dietrich

 

[Timm Rautmann]

Hello again!
Reading your statements to this threat, I think we all bought some fake sound titles and indeed it is painful to see that we are not facing a major breakthrough of discrete Hi-rez on a massive scale now. – Here in Germany two major DVD distributors of DVD sended back all their DVD Audios due to low sales! This is not a good sign for the fans of the Hirez multichannel in Germany.

Being so pessimistic I still want to state some optimistic viewpoints.
When I look back going into Quad again, it was hard for me to get back all kinds of old discrete Quad recordings. Fortunatly, I was able to collect just about 400 discrete titles from CD4/Q8/QR. What I mean is:

I am still happy that I can buy a few more multichannel sound discrete recordings. May be I am some day able to have a greater number of original digital discrete recordings. As long as I can still buy some titles I am satisfied.

Moreover it is great to read reviews so that you can skip this or that recording. Thus we have a great place here in this forum. Adding the information that we can obtain from www.digitalaudioguide.com or www.highfidelityreview.com it may be easier for us to find a way through the jungle of false and real discrete.
A further proposal of mine is that we could grade our reviews according to the disceteness of the recording we are reviewing. This might be a help, too, inorder to avoid to buy these fake tiltes.
Timm