Will Surround on actual HIREZ discs sound shrill or scratchy?

[Quadro-Action]

After received today the long awaited Elton John 3-pack (Goodbye Yellow Brick Road) I am not really enthusiasic. The music may be a thing of taste, the surround-mixdown is well - but the sound over all seems for me sratchy and unsatisfying. And I have not an equipment of lowest level. This impression of too much treble I will listen also from other SA-CD's and also a few DVD-Audio's. This is not my own opinion. Other surround-fans, which I have asked, will listen the same bad impression. In this sight and experiences HIREZ will produce not automatically the best sound-quality. To listen Stereo-CD's and of course analog quadraphonic software (especially by restauration) after HIREZ surround programm will be often a real recovery for the ears - clear and also clean sounds in the trebles. But I will not be the most critical listener, I only would like to read here by answers, what some other fans of Surround will mean about this aspect and which experiences they will have with HIREZ surround sound quality? I for my own will play SA-CD's with the Sony NS 900 V and for DVD-Audio the Technics A-10 - both with best results by the HiFi tests and reports. I think, that some critical sounds from HIREZ will not be a problem of the technic, but more a problem of today surround-mixdown with sometimes too much power on both ends of the frequency range - bass and expecially trebles.
Dietrich

 

[Cai Campbell]

You are hearing the results of the mastering. Shrillness is certainly not a characteristic of hi-rez digital formats! My experience has been just the opposite, that hi-rez offers the potential for a rich, warm analog-like experience. However, the formats can be very revealing, and if the product was mastered too hot, it is going to be very noticeable.

 

[Timm Rautmann]

After received today the long awaited Elton John 3-pack (Goodbye Yellow Brick Road) I am not really enthusiasic. The music may be a thing of taste, the surround-mixdown is well - but the sound over all seems for me sratchy and unsatisfying. And I have not an equipment of lowest level. This impression of too much treble I will listen also from other SA-CD's and also a few DVD-Audio's. This is not my own opinion. Other surround-fans, which I have asked, will listen the same bad impression. In this sight and experiences HIREZ will produce not automatically the best sound-quality. To listen Stereo-CD's and of course analog quadraphonic software (especially by restauration) after HIREZ surround programm will be often a real recovery for the ears - clear and also clean sounds in the trebles. But I will not be the most critical listener, I only would like to read here by answers, what some other fans of Surround will mean about this aspect and which experiences they will have with HIREZ surround sound quality? I for my own will play SA-CD's with the Sony NS 900 V and for DVD-Audio the Technics A-10 - both with best results by the HiFi tests and reports. I think, that some critical sounds from HIREZ will not be a problem of the technic, but more a problem of today surround-mixdown with sometimes too much power on both ends of the frequency range - bass and expecially trebles.
Dietrich

When I first listen to some of my old quad tapes, of which some are direct copies of the quad masters [not the official Quad Version] and then listen to hi.-rez Dvd Audio I am not totally satisfied with the sound of hi.-rez. Audio. Although I am happy !!! to get new releases in multichannel I tend to agree with Dietrich, that most of the hi.-rez. do sound a bit to harsh, id. to much trebles and not as warm as analog sound can sound like, this will be apparent if you turn on the volume to a greater level and if you use high quality equipment [but maybe if you possess very good high end hi.-rez. players this might be better - I cannot make a last judgement, because I only have a standard Toshiba SD 500 e DVD Audio player.]
When I am listening to DVD Audio or SACD and I am hearing those higher trebles I sometimes believe, that the record industry want to make the customers believe: "Wow, sounds amazing, that is because of the 100khz range, great!" , while they are just listening with their small low grade equipment.
And again multichannel is my main interest. That is why I buy the hi.-rez. and not because of hi.-rez. itself! I can not tell the difference between 24bit 48khz or 96khz and sometimes I am happy with dts sound.

But in contrast to that what I just wrote I like the high fidelity sound of hi.-rez. of classical music [if you do not judge the discreteness of those recordings]. In my opinion those digital hi.-rez. recordings are better then the analog recordings, more analytic and clear sounding.

Timm

 

[Cai Campbell]

It is not the media, it is the mastering. If they did a straight dump of those old quad masters so that you could do an apples/apples comparison, I think you would be quite impressed.

 

[Guy Robinson]

You are hearing the results of the mastering. Shrillness is certainly not a characteristic of hi-rez digital formats! My experience has been just the opposite, that hi-rez offers the potential for a rich, warm analog-like experience. However, the formats can be very revealing, and if the product was mastered too hot, it is going to be very noticeable.

Sums it up well. As well, I find that speakers that have flatter performance are best for hi-rez.

 

[Marcsten]

This thread has me a little confused. My analogue equipment is better by comparison than is my digital (a Pioneer all in one player), but nevertheless, my observations of hi res have been that while they still don't quite reach that warm analogue sound, they are definitely NOT shrill. I have about a dozen or so discs, and the sacds in particular sound if anything, a little weak in the high end. This cannot be written off to the amps or speakers as they all have good high end frequencies in all other formats, including tape. SO I m not sure what you are hearing. I have not heard the Elton John disc yet; what other discs do you hear this on?
Marc

 

[Guy Robinson]

This thread has me a little confused. My analogue equipment is better by comparison than is my digital (a Pioneer all in one player), but nevertheless, my observations of hi res have been that while they still don't quite reach that warm analogue sound, they are definitely NOT shrill. I have about a dozen or so discs, and the sacds in particular sound if anything, a little weak in the high end. This cannot be written off to the amps or speakers as they all have good high end frequencies in all other formats, including tape. SO I m not sure what you are hearing. I have not heard the Elton John disc yet; what other discs do you hear this on?
Marc

I have the Pioneer 45a and generally I don't hear anything shrill on most discs. The GYBR cut on the sampler is a bit toppy though. I have over a hundred DVD-A and SACD discs and about 100 of them have a nice top end. This is why I think GYBR will be an exception.

 

[The Quadfather]

I have the Pioneer DV45A. I too have noticed that it seems a little peaky probably around the 10KHZ range. This i have also noticed with my Technics SHAC500D. I simply pot the treble down and it becomes acceptable. Eventually I will get around to adding equalizers, but since I need three of them, it will be awhile. I do not experience the problem with any analog format, or even compact discs on my CD player. It shows up most annoyingly whenever the letter "S" is pronounced, which tends to almost splatter mainly when listening loud. Potting the treble down seems to clear it up, and there is still plenty of treble, so I am in no hurry to deal with it. It probably has to do with the combination of equipment that you have, if you have several pieces in your chain that have a slight peak in the same area of the band, it becomes cumulative. That is what equalization is for, to correct these irregularities. The ideal piece in this case would be a parametric equalizer, which allows one to tailor the attenuation to the characteristics of the peak. Anyway, that is what I have observed concerning the matter.

The Quadfather

I have the Pioneer 45a and generally I don't hear anything shrill on most discs. The GYBR cut on the sampler is a bit toppy though. I have over a hundred DVD-A and SACD discs and about 100 of them have a nice top end. This is why I think GYBR will be an exception.

 

[Guy Robinson]

I have the Pioneer DV45A. I too have noticed that it seems a little peaky probably around the 10KHZ range. This i have also noticed with my Technics SHAC500D. I simply pot the treble down and it becomes acceptable. Eventually I will get around to adding equalizers, but since I need three of them, it will be awhile. I do not experience the problem with any analog format, or even compact discs on my CD player. It shows up most annoyingly whenever the letter "S" is pronounced, which tends to almost splatter mainly when listening loud. Potting the treble down seems to clear it up, and there is still plenty of treble, so I am in no hurry to deal with it. It probably has to do with the combination of equipment that you have, if you have several pieces in your chain that have a slight peak in the same area of the band, it becomes cumulative. That is what equalization is for, to correct these irregularities. The ideal piece in this case would be a parametric equalizer, which allows one to tailor the attenuation to the characteristics of the peak. Anyway, that is what I have observed concerning the matter.

The Quadfather

I just pray that no part of my chain dies on me because I am extremely happy with what I am hearing the way it is now. Except for the odd disc.

 

[Quadro-Action]

In the meantime I could read some interesting answers. And among thema there are those, who are listening also a strange sound by any Hirez records - and other are full satisfyed with them. And I agree, that not the technic will be the problem - DSD by SA-CD or Multi-Bit by DVD-Audio. And when an equipment sounds well by DVD-Video with DTS or AC-3 or Stereo/DTS-CD's - like my own - the reason for sometimes an annoying sound may be an result of an too excessive use of electronic extras by the mixdown for a "most beautifull" sound - like the oral exiter. May be, hat the Hirez storage-technic is in that connenction in particular sensitive.
And there is another problem - often reported in High-Fi/End papers. This is the dirty electric current, which will be especially "dirty" during on days in the week, when the many machines in the indusry and by the consumers will produce some "dirt" in the electric current. Then the wave-form will not have an ideal sinus oscillation, but will look like scrawl. You can test this - play music at night or sunday. It seems more clean. May be, that Hirez records will by this fact also or especially oversensitive. So I like to buy an "electric-wash" equipment. Further on, when I have around the coming holidays time enough, I will install my new measuring instrument for the frequency curve of the speakers. May be, that I will found a peak or a resonance by playing the few "unloved" Hirez-records. But most important it seems indeed, that the surround-mixdown is well working without too many electronic gimmicks. This should find a more consideration by the sound-engineers. And of course, like other fans of Quadraphony, I like natural also the new Hirez records - especially those with an perfect mixdown.
Dietrich

 

[Guy Robinson]

In the meantime I could read some interesting answers. And among thema there are those, who are listening also a strange sound by any Hirez records - and other are full satisfyed with them. And I agree, that not the technic will be the problem - DSD by SA-CD or Multi-Bit by DVD-Audio. And when an equipment sounds well by DVD-Video with DTS or AC-3 or Stereo/DTS-CD's - like my own - the reason for sometimes an annoying sound may be an result of an too excessive use of electronic extras by the mixdown for a "most beautifull" sound - like the oral exiter. May be, hat the Hirez storage-technic is in that connenction in particular sensitive.
And there is another problem - often reported in High-Fi/End papers. This is the dirty electric current, which will be especially "dirty" during on days in the week, when the many machines in the indusry and by the consumers will produce some "dirt" in the electric current. Then the wave-form will not have an ideal sinus oscillation, but will look like scrawl. You can test this - play music at night or sunday. It seems more clean. May be, that Hirez records will by this fact also or especially oversensitive. So I like to buy an "electric-wash" equipment. Further on, when I have around the coming holidays time enough, I will install my new measuring instrument for the frequency curve of the speakers. May be, that I will found a peak or a resonance by playing the few "unloved" Hirez-records. But most important it seems indeed, that the surround-mixdown is well working without too many electronic gimmicks. This should find a more consideration by the sound-engineers. And of course, like other fans of Quadraphony, I like natural also the new Hirez records - especially those with an perfect mixdown.
Dietrich

Maybe it's the beer drinking at night.

 

[The Quadfather]

Beer definitely seems to improve the sound. I'm not a hifi snob, I use lamp cord for speaker wire for christ's sake! But these are nuances we're talking about. They are audible, and they are annoying. It is a known fact that some people's hearing extends into the upper reaches of the band and some don't. So, not everyone hears the same thing. I bought a Clarion car stereo with the same situation. When I added the surround decoder the sonic quality improved. The decoder has Yamaha chips. I don't know what the player has, but when you add the decoder, what's in the player is no longer used. There's a real and definable difference and it affects listenability. If one is not sensitive to it, then it isn't a problem.

The Quadfather

Maybe it's the beer drinking at night.

 

[Quadro-Action]

Oh yes, I have forgotten to tell, that beer drinking will be also a methode for listening a "satisfying" sound from "bad" records. But that there are people, who are not satisfying with the sound of any SA-CD's (DVD-Audio included) is a fact. And I would report about a few aspects, which will or may have an influenc of sound quality. Another example has reported the Quadfather above. On the other hand - I am happy to listen errors in the sound - so I know, that my ears will work further on efficient. Dietrich

 

[Cai Campbell]

I don't buy it. I do not believe these deficiencies you are hearing (or think you are hearing) have anything at all to do with the formats. There must be something else going on.

Not long ago, I did an in-depth real-time comparison between an original mint copy of America's "Homecoming" LP and the hi-rez stereo tracks of the DVD-A. The two were virtually indistinguishable, and my system and my hearing are pretty darn good, if I do say so myself.

I've said it once, I've said it twice, and I'm going to say it a third time. IT IS NOT THE FORMATS, IT IS THE MASTERING.

And if it ain't the mastering that is causing this "strange sound" claimed on all hi-rez product (and I know there is nothing wrong with the mastering on ALL hi-rez product) then it is something in your system or something in your head!

 

[Guy Robinson]

II don't buy it. I do not believe these deficiencies you are hearing (or think you are hearing) have anything at all to do with the formats. There must be something else going on.

Not long ago, I did an in-depth real-time comparison between an original mint copy of America's "Homecoming" LP and the hi-rez stereo tracks of the DVD-A. The two were virtually indistinguishable, and my system and my hearing are pretty darn good, if I do say so myself.

I've said it once, I've said it twice, and I'm going to say it a third time. IT IS NOT THE FORMATS, IT IS THE MASTERING.

And if it ain't the mastering that is causing this "strange sound" claimed on all hi-rez product (and I know there is nothing wrong with the mastering on ALL hi-rez product) then it is something in your system or something in your head!

Like I said, most of it sounds great to me. I do know from past experience for surround, if you don't get the speakers placed right and the levels set correctly it can sound pretty damn crappy. If you do get everything set right it sound downright incredible.

 

[Quadro-Action]

I don't understand the exitement of Cai C. about the different sights of aspects about Hirez records. And I mean also, that the main point for an unsatisfactory sound-quality by a few SA-CD's o DVD-Audio's (from my sight) may be the mixing or mastering. But nevertheless, there may be also further technical reasons. Is such a discussion forbidden in the qq-forum? I think, when also the sound may be rough, the tone in the discussion among suround-freaks should have a touch of kind. And I have not said, that all hirez records sound questionable. I can name for example a few SA-CD's with "best" sound: Spyra Gyra - in Modern Times / The Best Of Hugh Masekela - Liberation / Diana Krall - The Look Of Love / Pink Floyd (of course) / Blues Company - From Daybreak to Heartbreak / Beck - Sea Change / Shaggy - Lucky Day. So far my comment. Dietrich

 

[Cai Campbell]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that all hi-rez format recordings sound shrill or odd to you. Even if this is what you are saying, you are most certainly entitled to say it... and I will most strongly disagree, kind sir!

Sorry to get excited. I'll try and keep my pants on.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Well I just picked up GYBR this afternoon and listened to the entire thing. While there are parts that could be considered shrill, I found that most of it was coming from having the rear speakers unbalanced. When I cut them back a few DB and let the front channels dominate a bit more everything seemed to settle in nicely. I'm very happy with it. Most of the songs are so detailed and clear that some almost sound like they have been re-recorded, not remixed.

 

[The Quadfather]

In my case, it is not a deficiency of which I speak. It is an excess of treble. It is a matter of adjustment. I knock down the treble when I listen to SACDs and DVD-As, and it sounds OK. When I put on a quadradisc, I turn it back up. I do this automatically because I know if I forget to do it, I'll be getting up halfway through the first song and adjusting it. In my head? Don't urinate on my leg and tell me it's raining! I'm a broadcast engineer, I know when it's right and when it isn't. And I'm saying that many of these discs or my player has some excess treble. I rest my case.

The Quadfather

 

[Guy Robinson]

Well we all do what we must to make it sound good to our own ears. I have never had to adjust the treble on any hi-rez disc that I have.