Stanton 780 CD-4 Cartridge with Stanton 4DQ Quadrahedral Stylus - Opinions?

[The Quadfather]

I wouldn't recommend that you clean the stylus after every play. Too much risk of damaging it. The preferred thing to do is to clean the records before each play, using a good record brush like Discwasher. It comes with a fluid, but I prefer to use it dry. Also, a new stylus has a breakin period before it will be optimal for CD-4. After you get your cartridge alignment right using an alignment protractor made for turntables, and get your antiskate and tracking weight right, (i just looked to see where I had settled on, and it was 1 3/4 grams), put the demod on 2 channel mode and play about 6 SQ or stereo records with it. You can break it in with CD-4 records with the demod on, but you probably won't enjoy it as much.

 

[par4ken]

Forget it. I bought a Stanton CD-4 cart with the so called quadrahederon stylus, and it was a dud from the get go. Get the Audio Technica AT440MLa and you won't regret it. By the way, the stanton cart is a great stereo cart, so give it to someone who has a stereo setup. It just won't do CD-4. Stanton should have been ashamed of themselves for trying to pass this cart off as quad CD-4. By the way, once you get your CD-4 system right, I suspect you will be scanning Ebay for more records. That's what I did after my prolonged period of initially not getting my CD-4 system to work. Imagine there's no splatter, no distortion too. Just great CD-4 separation!

I looked up this cartridge out of curiosity and it's specified to 20 Khz, I'm surprised that it would work well for CD-4. Has anyone else tried a moving coil cartridge, my Sony XL-MC3 works better than any CD-4 cartridge that I've ever tried. Most such cartridges are specified to 50 or 60 Khz.

 

[Quad Linda]

Yes, I have used Ortofon MC cartridges for CD-4. My MCA-76 Pre-pre amp even has a CD-4 position.

 

[par4ken]

I wonder what the CD-4 position does? You would think that you would want flat response for both uses. Use of my home-built Pre-pre amp (which inverts phase) causes the front and back channels to reverse!

 

[dr8track]

I'm putting my problem on hold temporarily. I ordered a Technics overhang guage to confirm that the cartridge is properly mounted in the headshell. Currently, using a protractor that is supposed to be for the Technics SL 1200, I can get the stylus to align at the two designated points on the arc, but then some of the other settings they have you check are out of whack. Its a little hard to see in the pics because of the shadows, but the stylus does line up exactly with the points on the arc.




But when I check the other points on the grid the headshell isn't parallel to lines.




So, whether I keep this cartridge or buy another one, I'm going to need the tools to set it up properly. So, on hold for now until the postman brings me some goodies.

 

[jrlinks]

Rather than use Discwasher fluids (DiscWasher D4+ contains alcohol), why not use Lou Dorren's

Record Cleaner For Cleaning & Archive Restoration kit

It works very well, and does not damage LPs, 45s, or 78s.
You may recall he knows a little about CD-4. ;-)

Dry Discwasher brush or something like the Decca carbon fiber brush are fine for surface dust.

 

[The Quadfather]

I looked up this cartridge out of curiosity and it's specified to 20 Khz, I'm surprised that it would work well for CD-4. Has anyone else tried a moving coil cartridge, my Sony XL-MC3 works better than any CD-4 cartridge that I've ever tried. Most such cartridges are specified to 50 or 60 Khz.

The AT440MLa is a revision of the old AT440ML. The original cart was spec'd out to about 35 KHZ if I recall correctly. It is likely that the AT440MLa performs similarly, and that it's response drops off gradually beyond that point. I imagine that Audio Technica rated it at 20KHZ so they wouldn't have to guarantee it for CD-4 use. I have been using mine for CD-4 for some time now, and it performs quite well. The only problem with a moving coil cartridge is that the demod has to be designed for it. That excludes the JVC 4DD5, a popular demod. Popular, because of it's stability and solid performance. However, I understand that the future Dorren demod will handle various cartridge types.

 

[dr8track]

The only problem with a moving coil cartridge is that the demod has to be designed for it. That excludes the JVC 4DD5, a popular demod. Popular, because of it's stability and solid performance. However, I understand that the future Dorren demod will handle various cartridge types.

Well, that's an interesting bit of info I didn't know about. So, before I consider solving my CD-4 playback issues with the purchase of an AT440MLa cartridge, does it work with the Marantz CD-400? How about the CD-4 decoder built into the Sansui QRX 9001?

 

[quadsearcher]

That is interesting. I've been window shopping cartridges for a year now and overlooked MC not compatible with my JVC demod. Would it still work with step-up transformers or would they degrade the frequency too much? I'm guessing step-ups that have the needed response would be very expensive.

 

[The Quadfather]

That is interesting. I've been window shopping cartridges for a year now and overlooked MC not compatible with my JVC demod. Would it still work with step-up transformers or would they degrade the frequency too much? I'm guessing step-ups that have the needed response would be very expensive.

I don't know. I understand that the output voltage (signal level) of a moving coil cart is a bit lower. A Marantz CD-300 is essentially a recased 4DD5. It's the exact same circuit board. Marantz just bought the boards from JVC. So, unless Marantz included an extra stage of preamplification, I suspect it wouldn't work. A demod that would work would have a switch to select between the two types of cartridges. I have seen some with a switch for a semiconductor cart, but not moving coil. It might be possible to use a preamp to feed the demod, but the preamp would have to be wide banded. Also, do moving coil preamps take the signal from moving coil level to moving magnet level? Or to line level? Line level is what comes out of the demod, and it is much too strong for a demod's phono input. In my setup, my 4DD5 performs as a phono preamp when I am playing non-CD-4 discs, because, it does that. So, for a moving coil preamp, I figure a frequency response from 20 HZ to 45 KHZ would be about right, and the output be "phono level" would be about right. I reckon transformers would work too, if their response was wide enough.

 

[The Quadfather]

I wonder what the CD-4 position does? You would think that you would want flat response for both uses. Use of my home-built Pre-pre amp (which inverts phase) causes the front and back channels to reverse!

Is it possible that the switch adjusts the preamp from line level to phono level, in order to feed the demod?

 

[Bonzodog]

I was a big fan of Stanton for stereo cartridges.

Bought the CD4 one when it came out.

It was never able to play an entire album without breaking up.

Went back to the AT and was happy again.

Tried the Ortofon SL15Q.

Went back to the AT and was happy again.

Tried the Grado G-1+.

Went back to the AT and was happy again.

The Stanton and Grado came in nice boxes.

Still have them.

 

[dr8track]

I was a big fan of Stanton for stereo cartridges.

Bought the CD4 one when it came out.

It was never able to play an entire album without breaking up.

Went back to the AT and was happy again.

Tried the Ortofon SL15Q.

Went back to the AT and was happy again.

Tried the Grado G-1+.

Went back to the AT and was happy again.

The Stanton and Grado came in nice boxes.

Still have them.

Well, the AT definitely sounds like a good bet, but now it sounds like a moving coil cart won't work with my Marantz CD 400 decoder, so if that's the case I'm back to point zero on trying to figure out what to use.

 

[dr8track]

Dear Dr 8track:
Then turn down all the way, the separation pot for the left side. If it is still distorted, (No separation and hollow sound is O.K. but not distortion) then the discriminator (the PLL circuit) or the ANRS is malfunctioning. You will need the services of a competent technician. If the signal is not distorted, but becomes distorted as you bring up the separation pot, then the audio circuits in the left demod are failing, again, you will need the services of a competent technician.

The Quadfather

OK, when I turn the L separation control all the way counter-clockwise, it definitely is still distorting. When I do the same test on the R side, it sounds fine. No distortion. So, looks like I have an issue with the decoder.

 

[The Quadfather]

OK, when I turn the L separation control all the way counter-clockwise, it definitely is still distorting. When I do the same test on the R side, it sounds fine. No distortion. So, looks like I have an issue with the decoder.

OK, I thought you said that the distortion changed sides when you switched the input connectors. Did the distortion move, or did it stay in the left side? If it moved to the right side, then further testing on the demodulator itself is moot. If the signal entering the demodulator is bad, the demodulator will not work properly. If you use the right channel signal in the left input and it is clean, that proves that the demodulator is working properly. If you connect the left channel signal to the right side and it distorts on the right side, that proves that the signal is bad. The turntable or cartridge needs work. If when you switched inputs the problem stayed in the left channels, then you have a demodulator problem, more than likely in the discriminator PLL circuit.

 

[Doug G.]

Yes. If you can get a good output from the demodulator on both channels with a good input (the right side from your turntable, apparently), the domodulator is OK.

BTW, typically, a moving coil pre-preamp boosts the signal level to phono input level, not line level so the only issue would be whether the response of the pre-preamp goes high enough to pass the carriers. If it does, you only need the pre-preamp in between the moving coil cartridge and demodulator to make it work. It's just an extra stage of amplification.

On Linda's pre-preamp, I imagine the CD-4 setting extends the response out to that required by the system or maybe even boosts the output up in the ultra sonic range to ensure the carriers are passed. That would explain why they call the other setting "flat".

I know there are those who use moving coil cartridges for CD-4, Linda being one of them.

Doug

 

[Doug G.]

Well, that's an interesting bit of info I didn't know about. So, before I consider solving my CD-4 playback issues with the purchase of an AT440MLa cartridge, does it work with the Marantz CD-400? How about the CD-4 decoder built into the Sansui QRX 9001?

An AT440MLa is not a moving coil cartridge. It is a moving magnet type and its output is fine for feeding a demodulator. It will work with any demodulator set for a magnetic cartridge.

Doug

 

[dr8track]

OK, I thought you said that the distortion changed sides when you switched the input connectors. Did the distortion move, or did it stay in the left side? If it moved to the right side, then further testing on the demodulator itself is moot. If the signal entering the demodulator is bad, the demodulator will not work properly. If you use the right channel signal in the left input and it is clean, that proves that the demodulator is working properly. If you connect the left channel signal to the right side and it distorts on the right side, that proves that the signal is bad. The turntable or cartridge needs work. If when you switched inputs the problem stayed in the left channels, then you have a demodulator problem, more than likely in the discriminator PLL circuit.

Ah, ok. Yes, when I move the output cables from L to R then the distortion moves to the R side. So, that's back to sounding like I am experiencing a turntable/cartridge issue. Out of curiosity I tried an experiment and got interesting results. I have a second turntable that I use for playing stereo records. It is an inexpensive linear tracking Technics SL DL 5. It's one of the inexpensive models with the tonearm in the lid. It has a Pickering cartridge, but I can't see any model number listed on the cartridge. On the stylus it is labeled 1 DTL. It has a set tracking force of 1.25 grams. So, by NO means is this a setup that would be approved for CD-4 playback. I don't know the specs on the cartridge, but I'd be shocked if they were anywhere near 40KHz. But I thought I'd hook this turntable up to my Marantz CD400 and just see what happened.
So, I have connected the linear tracking Technics to the Marantz with a normal audio cable. I don't have a low capacitance cable to use as a connection between the TT and demodulator. I DO have low capacitance cables running from the Marantz to the receiver.
With this setup, using an inexpensive linear tracking turntable with a cartridge not approved for CD-4, it sounds pretty damn fantastic. Perfect separation. No distortion. I'm listening to Doobie Brothers What Were Once Vices right now and it sounds great.
So, I guess this cinches it that the issue with my Technics SL 1200 is very likely the cartridge. But what are your thoughts about my inexpensive linear tracking Technics properly playing back CD-4?

 

[Doug G.]

Low capacitance cables are not needed between the demodulator and receiver/amp., although it certainly won't hurt anything. There are no ultra sonic frequencies being transferred there. It is only between the turntable/cartridge and demodulator where low cap. cables need to be used since the ultra sonic frequencies are still present there.

As far as your linear tracker working for CD-4, that is one of those happenstances with CD-4. Obviously, the cartridge on there and wiring are capable of retrieving and transferring the signals to the demodulator well enough for it to separate the information into the four channels. That's a good deal.

Doug

 

[dr8track]

Low capacitance cables are not needed between the demodulator and receiver/amp., although it certainly won't hurt anything. There are no ultra sonic frequencies being transferred there. It is only between the turntable/cartridge and demodulator where low cap. cables need to be used since the ultra sonic frequencies are still present there.

As far as your linear tracker working for CD-4, that is one of those happenstances with CD-4. Obviously, the cartridge on there and wiring are capable of retrieving and transferring the signals to the demodulator well enough for it to separate the information into the four channels. That's a good deal.

Doug

Well, I'm just pleased it's working. I'm having a bit of a CD-4 listen-a-thon right now. As far as the low capacitance cable between the TT and demodulator, is this a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it?" Or, could there be some improvement to the quality of the sound by adding low capacitance cables?