DR, Brickwalling, Fidelity, and Perceived Loudness

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I don't know how else to explain it. When you downsample you shrink (compress) the file size. My only point was to make sure the OP knew that the term has more than one usage. You know, his original question.

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DR, Brickwalling, Fidelity, and Perceived Loudness
Does dynamic range equate to and/or result from "brickwalling"? If not, which might be more responsible for perceived loudness?
//

None of those terms except 'fidelity' has anything to do with data compression.

Just stop confusing the issue, please. This thread isn't about data/filesize compression, either lossy or lossless.
 
Sorry to post for the second time off-topic, but I think is just a matter of naming the things with the proper words.

It's so easy to look for "Audio Compression" in the Wikipedia:

""""""""""""""""""""""""
Audio compression may refer to:

  • Audio compression (data), a type of lossy or lossless compression in which the amount of data in a recorded waveform is reduced to differing extents for transmission respectively with or without some loss of quality, used in CD and MP3 encoding, Internet radio, and the like
  • Dynamic range compression, also called audio level compression, in which the dynamic range, the difference between loud and quiet, of an audio waveform is reduced
""""""""""""""""""""""""

The former includes any manipulation intended to reduce the size of the file. Downsampling, obviously reduces the size.

But, I think that when we refer to audio compression, in the context of music, greater or lesser quality, and loudness war issues, we are referring to the latter.
 
//
DR, Brickwalling, Fidelity, and Perceived Loudness
Does dynamic range equate to and/or result from "brickwalling"? If not, which might be more responsible for perceived loudness?
//

None of those terms except 'fidelity' has anything to do with data compression.

Just stop confusing the issue, please. This thread isn't about data/filesize compression, either lossy or lossless.
I didn't say it was. I explained myself as clearly as possible. Some people hear the term "compression" and think about MP3s. Terms have different meanings. Why is this so controversial? I didn't say anything that is inaccurate.
 
Sorry to post for the second time off-topic, but I think is just a matter of naming the things with the proper words.

It's so easy to look for "Audio Compression" in the Wikipedia:

""""""""""""""""""""""""
Audio compression may refer to:

  • Audio compression (data), a type of lossy or lossless compression in which the amount of data in a recorded waveform is reduced to differing extents for transmission respectively with or without some loss of quality, used in CD and MP3 encoding, Internet radio, and the like
  • Dynamic range compression, also called audio level compression, in which the dynamic range, the difference between loud and quiet, of an audio waveform is reduced
""""""""""""""""""""""""

The former includes any manipulation intended to reduce the size of the file. Downsampling, obviously reduces the size.

But, I think that when we refer to audio compression, in the context of music, greater or lesser quality, and loudness war issues, we are referring to the latter.
Yes. Thank you.
 
I don't know how else to explain it. When you downsample you shrink (compress) the file size. My only point was to make sure the OP knew that the term has more than one usage. You know, his original question.
Yeah, I get that. I think we're on the same page here. I took it to mean compression causes downsampling, when it is accurate to say that downsampling in effect compresses the file size.
Ah, words. But it's all we have.
 
Yeah, I get that. I think we're on the same page here. I took it to mean compression causes downsampling, when it is accurate to say that downsampling in effect compresses the file size.
Ah, words. But it's all we have.

Downsampling isn't causing a compression in the file size, it's causing a reduction in the file size.
 
If you want to minimize wear on the record and stylus, you need to clean every record. Period.

All of the things you mention (which are all good post-cleaning practice) are just surface cleaning bandaids without a good cleaning to start with. Clean the grooves - that’s where the music is - then attenuate the grooves getting dirty again by keeping the surface clean.
Sorry , can’t agree .

prevention is better than cure . My records are never exposed to anything more than minimal airborne dust . Careful handling , anti static treatment and use of dust covers keeps this to a minimum .

‘Cleaning’ is not required
 
What's funny is there are arguments far more heated and far less logical over different compressors in studio gear forums. Both analog hardware units and software emulations.

"Compression" is used for everything from the studio dynamics control unit used in mixing and mastering to data compression. Don't look for secret clues linking those together.

We can call downsampling data compression because the file is smaller. But we probably shouldn't because it implies something a little different.

Terms and conditions aside. We want to know if something has altered the sound of our copy of some music. If it did, now we want better seats! What matters? What can you hear damage from? What normally doesn't cause damage?

Brick wall style limiting up to 4db should be transparent unless a mix is just bionically slammed coming off the mixing board to begin with. So something with just the tops of the "hairs" shaved off isn't going to sound altered. If it sounds hyped, then it's also hyped beyond that limiting.

Any sample rate conversion should be transparent with modern software. Some on the fly processing might be an exception. There was older sample rate conversion software that was grossly bad. Old advice to avoid it sticks around. Again, if something sounds harsh or bright, it's because someone intentionally made it that way in mastering.

Oh, and "mastering" doesn't suddenly translate to "forced to boost highs and make loud". People are starting to ask for things "not mastered" like it's a dirty word now!
 
Physical Media's wear is negligible if you're not incompetent at both preventive care and most of all care in playback. Is there wear? Yes. Worse than the "wear" we, the same Carbon based life forms on a planet with an Oxygen/Nitrogen atmosphere experience over the course of our lifetimes (or the lifetimes of whomever we're likely to bequeath it to)? Not so much actually, as long as those parameters are observed. Nothing is permanent. But the least permanent thing of all are any download/file of any type. Hard Drives fail and do so spectacularly, often with little if any warning. Lastly, if you don't OWN a physical copy of it, then it's basically the auditory equivalent of beer. You're renting it and the IP owners can screw with your ability to call it up at will, unless you've gone to lengths to air-gap yourself into a "bunker mentality" demographic. At which point, I direct my outside "The Matrix" friends (where actual reality matters) to look back at what I said about we ourselves, the imminently impermanent. Let the good times roll, while we still have them. I have a large collection of every format you can pretty much think of (no Mini-Disc, not going there in THIS thread, lol...) and no format (real or virtual) is perfect. Neither are the people who invent them and neither are the people who collect them. We do the best we can with what we've "gots". There shouldn't be a lot of controversy in that. There are other, more relevant Gerbil wheels on which to expend oneself. ; - )
 
Physical Media's wear is negligible if you're not incompetent at both preventive care and most of all care in playback. Is there wear? Yes. Worse than the "wear" we, the same Carbon based life forms on a planet with an Oxygen/Nitrogen atmosphere experience over the course of our lifetimes (or the lifetimes of whomever we're likely to bequeath it to)? Not so much actually, as long as those parameters are observed. Nothing is permanent. But the least permanent thing of all are any download/file of any type. Hard Drives fail and do so spectacularly, often with little if any warning. Lastly, if you don't OWN a physical copy of it, then it's basically the auditory equivalent of beer. You're renting it and the IP owners can screw with your ability to call it up at will, unless you've gone to lengths to air-gap yourself into a "bunker mentality" demographic. At which point, I direct my outside "The Matrix" friends (where actual reality matters) to look back at what I said about we ourselves, the imminently impermanent. Let the good times roll, while we still have them. I have a large collection of every format you can pretty much think of (no Mini-Disc, not going there in THIS thread, lol...) and no format (real or virtual) is perfect. Neither are the people who invent them and neither are the people who collect them. We do the best we can with what we've "gots". There shouldn't be a lot of controversy in that. There are other, more relevant Gerbil wheels on which to expend oneself. ; - )
lol
 
Sorry , can’t agree .

prevention is better than cure . My records are never exposed to anything more than minimal airborne dust . Careful handling , anti static treatment and use of dust covers keeps this to a minimum .

‘Cleaning’ is not required
Every new record is dirty. Just look at what is left behind after doing a real cleaning.

Proper cleaning is the preventative. Everything you’re using is a therapeutic.

It’s great that you have convinced yourself cleaning isn’t necessary, but it’s terrible advice for others.
 
This includes CD remastering being decried as "over-compressed" when the overall volume of the recording is raised from where it was during the "chuck 'em out the door as quick as possible" early days of the format. And that's just one bias that I don't believe (it's a problem of nearly religious conviction complexity and that's not a good thing) is helpful. Some folks judge it by what "feels" right in terms of where the little marker on their volume knob is set.
Simply raising the volume by amplifying everything isn't going to change the nature of the sound. And neither is a bit of limiting as @jimfisheye said.

But when you have songs that, for the most part, do not change their volume at all despite the music actually suggesting that, then you're removing a fundamental human element of the music. IMHO, the loudness war is as damaging to music as global warming is to the planet. (Not coincidentally, compressed masterings have long since been referred to as "hot".)

When music remains at a constant level, then it automatically turns into audio wallpaper. Look at the history - people started downloading songs for free a few years after the loudness wars really took flight. Again, this is not a coincidence. When you remove the music's possibility to move you, it gets devalued and nobody wants to pay money for it anymore.

I think this quote comes from the SH forums: "A good friend worked for a record store in the early/mid 90’s and said many artists seemed obsessed with having their CD’s louder than others when strolling through the store. Sadly, that obsession may have caused the death of the music industry as we knew it. Soon after, I remember losing enthusiasm for purchasing new music. Why pay for something that no longer soothed my ears and soul? From then on, I consumed more older CD’s and vinyl…which pushed me even further into music from the 50’s-80’s."

Bob Speer said this in 2001: “The record labels blame digital downloads, MP3s, CD burners, and others for the lack of CD sales. While there is some truth to their constant whining, they only have themselves to blame for the steady decline in CD sales.

Much of the music being produced today isn’t music at all.... It’s anti-music because the life is being squashed out of it through over-compression during the tracking, mixing, and mastering stages.... It’s no wonder that consumers don’t want to pay for the CDs being produced today. They’re over-priced and they sound bad.”
IMHO, Music destined to be consumed in hostile environments may benefit from excess compression. (Cars, Subways thru earphones etc)
Yes, I see that point. I've had the same experience with earbuds in crowded places - the songs that sounded worst on my CD player were the most listenable in that environment.
But it should simply be possible to have a DSP compressor/limiter effect built into car systems or mp3 players, instead of mastering even a hi-res download or concert movie blu-ray for garbage equipment.
That brings up another possibility (tin foil hat time, kiddos). Was brickwalling less about over zealous engineers than it was about planned obsolescence? The industry knows that you get maybe 40 years of robust sales from a strong release. The switch from vinyl to CD in the early 90s gave customers a product that doesn't wear out over time the way vinyl can (at least that was what they wanted you to think). So they just sold you a 40 year product. What now? Then they made some REALLY great sounding remasters and got people into re-buying their CDs. So now what were they going to sell them? Twenty more years of commercial viability wasted. So perhaps the loudness wars were created as a marketing took. A deliberately defective one. They sell another batch of CDs then 15 years later say "whoops! turns out those weren't so good, so now we've fixed it and we will sell you yet another version".
Ruining the market short-term so you can sell more long-term isn't smart. And indeed, only a fraction of originally brickwalled albums have actually been improved with reissues.
Anyway, I think the real reason for the volume wars was being louder on the radio. No more, no less. You could try to sit these guys down and explain that they're really just ruining people's music but they just come back with "but ours go to 11".
And that is stupid! The radio applies its own processing and tries to keep its levels consistent. So what happened when e.g. I recorded the radio debut of Tears for Fears' comeback single "The Tipping Point"? Why, the old song they played before it ("Pale Shelter") sounded louder and crisper. (n)
Unfortunately most people - and remember the vast majority of music listeners are not fanatical listeners with expensive, calibrated systems - prefer compressed, limited music when given a simple A-B test because the brain reflexively prefers louder.
This is missing the point that every listener normalizes the music to a preferred level. Give me an old Saga CD and I'll turn it up. Give me a new Deep Purple CD and I'll turn it down. I did this long before I knew about the loudness wars. Especially if something sounded too loud to me.
Believe it or not, the most painful example of a bricked CD I've ever heard was a remaster of Gino Vanelli - Brother to Brother. Smooth AOR turned to fingernails on a chalkboard. I borrowed it from the library and couldn't believe what I was hearing. I would have been really upset if I had paid money for it.
Well, yikes. Album list - Dynamic Range Database
 
It's the same thing.

No, actually it isn't. Reduction is a permanent, irreversible process, like reducing a file from 96kHz to 48kHz. Compression implies that whatever process you're doing has an equivalent expansion, like for example in the FLAC process, where you take a PCM .wav file, compress it to FLAC, and then decompress it back to wav. Similarly with standard file compression, it's the same: zipping a file is compression, unzipping it is decompression. A sample rate or bit depth downconversion isn't compression, because you're permanently changing the file in a way that can't be reconstructed - once you've turned a 96kHz file into a 48kHz file or a 24bit file to a 16bit file there's no way to reverse the process and recover the data that you've discarded.
 
No, actually it isn't. Reduction is a permanent, irreversible process, like reducing a file from 96kHz to 48kHz. Compression implies that whatever process you're doing has an equivalent expansion, like for example in the FLAC process, where you take a PCM .wav file, compress it to FLAC, and then decompress it back to wav. Similarly with standard file compression, it's the same: zipping a file is compression, unzipping it is decompression. A sample rate or bit depth downconversion isn't compression, because you're permanently changing the file in a way that can't be reconstructed - once you've turned a 96kHz file into a 48kHz file or a 24bit file to a 16bit file there's no way to reverse the process and recover the data that you've discarded.
That all sounds right to me.

So then we can a 96x24 wav file, be converted to level 5 flac, then later someone can decompress it back to wav via something like Foobar2K, and then be converted back to flac with 0 compression without losing data?
 
No, actually it isn't. Reduction is a permanent, irreversible process, like reducing a file from 96kHz to 48kHz. Compression implies that whatever process you're doing has an equivalent expansion, like for example in the FLAC process, where you take a PCM .wav file, compress it to FLAC, and then decompress it back to wav. Similarly with standard file compression, it's the same: zipping a file is compression, unzipping it is decompression. A sample rate or bit depth downconversion isn't compression, because you're permanently changing the file in a way that can't be reconstructed - once you've turned a 96kHz file into a 48kHz file or a 24bit file to a 16bit file there's no way to reverse the process and recover the data that you've discarded.
Yes but that's not the type of compression we have been talking about. We are talking about the compression of the amplitude peaks to make the recording sound louder. When the amplitude compression is done so heavily (i.e. brickwalling) nothing can be done to bring it back to life!

Noise reduction systems like DBX compressed the signal by a predetermined amount and the expanded it back on playback. Brickwalling compresses the audio so tight that there is no amplitude variation from peak to peak, and it sounds awful!
 
That all sounds right to me.

So then we can a 96x24 wav file, be converted to level 5 flac, then later someone can decompress it back to wav via something like Foobar2K, and then be converted back to flac with 0 compression without losing data?
Yes, or back to the original wav with no loss, no changed data.
 
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