DR, Brickwalling, Fidelity, and Perceived Loudness

[JediJoker]

There was older sample rate conversion software that was grossly bad. Old advice to avoid it sticks around.

The stickiest old advice seems to be to only convert by integer multiples (e.g. 88.2kHz to 44.1kHz, 192kHz to 48kHz, etc.). Meanwhile, modern SRC algorithms have moved beyond this "limitation" such that non-integer conversions are just as transparent as integer ones.

...it should simply be possible to have a DSP compressor/limiter effect built into car systems or mp3 players, instead of mastering even a hi-res download or concert movie blu-ray for garbage equipment.

I've been saying this for years. Maybe now, with loudness targets and normalization, we'll actually see such a product come to market.

 

[Pontoneer]

Thank you. Just happy to hear someone admit that there are challenges.
I can remember back in my vinyl days that there were some instances where I could hear the first few seconds of a song very faintly before the actual song started at proper volume. Usually the first song on a side.

What I used to call pre echo certainly used to be a thing back in the bad old days when pressing quality used to be really low - often on mass market compilation labels like K-TEL ; often if you held their discs up to the light they were so thin you could see through them .

It wasn’t just at the beginnings of sides ; it often happened at the start of tracks or in Classical music where a loud part followed a quiet passage .

Things were really grim back then , but thankfully not any more since new records are so much better .

 

[Pontoneer]

That is 'print-through' from the analogue tape that the LP was mastered from - not an issue from the vinyl itself.

That is one possibility , but it can be a mechanical thing too where a combination of high groove density to extend playing time , excessive modulation and poor/thin pressings can indeed cause this .

 

[Pontoneer]

My experience lines up with yours @MidiMagic.
I have experienced a few pristine clean examples here and there. Most need cleaning. Artifact noise gets significantly louder than the music with a full range cartridge. I've generally been disappointed with a vinyl pressing about 85% of the time for one reason or another. The other 15% are an absolutely astonishing demonstration of mechanical engineering.

Yeah, if you have dampening issues with your turntable setup, 180g vinyl isn't going to fix it! The too small hole would just couple it right back again anyway. The altered vertical stylus angle from the record being out of spec thick can introduce problems too.

The idea of decoupling records from the platter went out decades ago once it was realised that undamped records could have vibrations excited within them by the stylus ( or indeed by sound from the loudspeakers ) .

Most modern turntables have massive , well damped platters , designed to absorb vibration from the records , and use clamps to clamp the disc firmly down across its entire surface . For turntables which can come as chassis , people also build massive plinths out of materials such as slate or granite since mass helps .

I used , years ago , to have a Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference Turntable , which worked on the principle of isolating the record from the platter by supporting it on six tiny soft rubber points : issues such as surface noise and pre/post echo were much more noticeable on that turntable than with other designs ( despite it being a beautiful piece of craftsmanship and a lovely thing to behold ) .

I tried many turntables , from Garrard , Thorens , Dual , Technics , Linn , Rega , Yamaha , Aristin , Fons , and anything potentially good that came through the shop , before buying my Michell Gyrodec , and adding the QC power supply some years later . I could upgrade to the Orbe platter for even more mass but have yet to do so . Even old records which sounded noisy in the past do sound quieter on the Gyrodec .

 

[Pontoneer]

Outliers aside, inflation adjusted, the cost of records today generally isn’t much different from what it was historically.

Expecting a new record (now or ever, really) to be clean is like expecting new apples you buy at a grocery store to be clean. One can believe and rationalize they should be clean - and not clean them before eating them - but it’s at your own peril.

I haven’t done the maths , but when I started buying records a single was about 50p and an album maybe £1:50 or £2 , depending what it was .

When I started my first Saturday job in the seventies I could maybe afford to buy a couple of records if I blew the lot .

These days , if I go to a record shop once a month I will easily spend well into three figures , but I’m older and have more disposable income now but records do feel more expensive and certainly are at least double the price of CDs , which started out being more expensive than records .

Even DVD movies are cheaper , with Blu Ray discs about on a par ; bothcertainly much cheaper than the Laserdiscs I bought years ago

 

[Wagonmaster_91]

Another little secret many people don't realize: The weight of the record has no bearing on the sound quality. Heavier vinyl just feels like it is better than standard weight. It helps justify paying more for a 180 - 200gm LP than a standard issue.

 

[marcb]

That is 'print-through' from the analogue tape that the LP was mastered from - not an issue from the vinyl itself.

This isn’t correct. Well, not entirely.

It can be print through but it can also be pre-echo generally caused by the cutting engineer not expanding the grooves in quiet sections directly preceding loud sections. Or it’s sometimes a consequence of long LP sides where they need to squeeze too much onto a side.

 

[marcb]

I haven’t done the maths , but when I started buying records a single was about 50p and an album maybe £1:50 or £2 , depending what it was .

When I started my first Saturday job in the seventies I could maybe afford to buy a couple of records if I blew the lot .

These days , if I go to a record shop once a month I will easily spend well into three figures , but I’m older and have more disposable income now but records do feel more expensive and certainly are at least double the price of CDs , which started out being more expensive than records .

Even DVD movies are cheaper , with Blu Ray discs about on a par ; bothcertainly much cheaper than the Laserdiscs I bought years ago

Yes, you haven’t done the math. Just look up historic inflation numbers and do the math on the cost of vinyl LPs.

For instance, I can also remember in the early-mid 80s when a single MFSL LP was US$18.98. That equates to about US$57 in Feb ‘22.

 

[marcb]

That is one possibility , but it can be a mechanical thing too where a combination of high groove density to extend playing time , excessive modulation and poor/thin pressings can indeed cause this .

Why would a poor/thin pressing be the cause of pre-echo? A poor cutting? Sure. But a poor and/or thin pressing?

 

[AYanguas]

This isn’t correct. Well, not entirely.

It can be print through but it can also be pre-echo generally caused by the cutting engineer not expanding the grooves in quiet sections directly preceding loud sections. Or it’s sometimes a consequence of long LP sides where they need to squeeze too much onto a side.

I think I remember from my vinyl times, that when I listened to that kind of subtle echo at the beginining, the duration was exactly just a vinyl revolution. And I heard exactly the same content you hear in the next one revolution when the music starts loud.

I always thought it was the influence of the recording stylus in the previous silent groove, that made that in the master copy material.

 

[marcb]

I think I remember from my vinyl times, that when I listened to that kind of subtle echo at the beginining, the duration was exactly just a vinyl revolution. And I heard exactly the same content you hear in the next one revolution when the music starts loud.

I always thought it was the influence of the recording stylus in the previous silent groove, that made that in the master copy material.

Again, as I wrote, there can be multiple reasons for similar, but not exactly the same, things.

What you’re recalling is pre-echo. As I wrote, this would be exactly one revolution before the content because of the cutting issue I described.

Tape print-through would not be exactly one LP revolution prior.

 

[Pontoneer]

Another little secret many people don't realize: The weight of the record has no bearing on the sound quality. Heavier vinyl just feels like it is better than standard weight. It helps justify paying more for a 180 - 200gm LP than a standard issue.

Well , I think it does : the energy imparted into a record by the stylus will be proportionately of greater significance the less massive the record is , all other things being equal .

 

[Pontoneer]

Why would a poor/thin pressing be the cause of pre-echo? A poor cutting? Sure. But a poor and/or thin pressing?

Trying to squeeze too much onto a side ; less mass = less damping . Simple logic

 

[JediJoker]

No idea what MFSL is in your terms...

Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab.

 

[Wagonmaster_91]

Well , I think it does : the energy imparted into a record by the stylus will be proportionately of greater significance the less massive the record is , all other things being equal .

 

[MidiMagic]

My experience lines up with yours @MidiMagic.
I have experienced a few pristine clean examples here and there. Most need cleaning. Artifact noise gets significantly louder than the music with a full range cartridge. I've generally been disappointed with a vinyl pressing about 85% of the time for one reason or another. The other 15% are an absolutely astonishing demonstration of mechanical engineering.

Yeah, if you have dampening issues with your turntable setup, 180g vinyl isn't going to fix it! The too small hole would just couple it right back again anyway. The altered vertical stylus angle from the record being out of spec thick can introduce problems too.

What I usually found was paper dust from the inner or outer sleeve.

I don't have any problem with damping. The record with the 1/4-inch hole will not turn on my PE-2038B and it will not drop down the spindle on my Collaro TSC-640. There is too much friction between the record and the spindle.

New records are as near sterile as can be .

That’s why they play with silent surfaces .

I don’t filter my air , indeed I like windows open and fresh air circulating .

I play my records with just the squirrel hair brush of my Michell Sweep Arm tracking across as they play ; it usually picks up a few particles of dust as they play , with the turntable lid closed over them . After playing they are put back in their sleeves clean , ready for the next time .

If I had done that, I would have had very dirty records between 2014 and 2019. They were building the new Interstate highway within a mile of my home.

Where are you that the outside air is dust-free? In addition to ordinary sources of dust, I find a good deal of tire dust from auto traffic.

I use my Autocleanica to clean new records and my Discwasher for normal use..

That is one possibility , but it can be a mechanical thing too where a combination of high groove density to extend playing time , excessive modulation and poor/thin pressings can indeed cause this .

This isn’t correct. Well, not entirely.

It can be print through but it can also be pre-echo generally caused by the cutting engineer not expanding the grooves in quiet sections directly preceding loud sections. Or it’s sometimes a consequence of long LP sides where they need to squeeze too much onto a side.

I have cut records, so I am familiar with the various things that happen.

Remember, the record is first cut on a two lacquer masters (one for each side). Then they electroplate the lacquer masters to make metal masters, metal mothers, and finally the metal stampers they put in the record preesses.

Pre-echo is caused when the lacquer is too soft and the first music on the record disturbs the lacquer of the already cut silent groove next to it.

Note that variable groove spacing was not available when many of the early LPs were made.

Someone mentioned being able to see through a record in the '70s. This was not because the vinyl was too thin but because the oil shortage reduced the amount of carbon black they put into the records. Pure vinyl is clear.

.

 

[THX1136]

Wanted to add, since most master tapes at 'professional' studios (however you would like to define that) would have been stored tails out, it would be rare to have what some have called pre-echo due to the master tape. Obviously, if someone carelessly stored the tape heads out it could be an issue due to print through. Back in the day I remember being told that doing a fast forward/fast reverse with the reel would act to decrease the amount of print through on an improperly stored reel. Never questioned the veracity of that info as it came from someone in the industry who was respected for their work. (problem is my nearly 70 yr old brain doesn't remember the gentleman's name.)

 

[steelydave]

There are lots of "best practice" things like 'tails out' that should've been followed, but got skipped in the fog of war, especially in the pre-CD era where there was no notion that they'd have to return to original stereo or quad master tapes (since LPs were cut from an EQed submaster) or multitracks (at all). Look no further than how many multitracks labels haven't been able to find for new remixes for evidence of how true this is.

 

[marcb]

Well , I think it does : the energy imparted into a record by the stylus will be proportionately of greater significance the less massive the record is , all other things being equal .

What energy imparted into a record by the stylus?

This is the same false logic that got us to 180g and 200g records must be better than 120g...

 

[marcb]

Trying to squeeze too much onto a side ; less mass = less damping . Simple logic

You’re conflating one relevant thing with two irrelevant things here.

A bad cutting will certainly cause it. A great pressing of a bad cutting will exhibit the issue. A bad pressing on thin vinyl of a good cutting will not exhibit it.

The pre-echo is built into the lacquer - whether due to a cutting issue or tape print-through. It‘s not a consequence of the thickness of the vinyl or the quality of the pressing.

Every copy of the album pressed from a metal part with the pre-echo - regardless of vinyl thickness or pressing quality - will exhibit the issue. And vice versa...