The latest MP3 discussion thread (moved from the DVD-A discussion)

True, we want DVD-A so bad that we continue discussing what might have been, well past the autopsy! What could we do different? What really went wrong? etc.

Quite by accident, I have the latest GQ magazine and it includes an article named Return to HiFi that dismisses the MP3 players and docks as tinny, rediscover your CD collection (duh) and better grade separates. The backlash to mp3 quality is well under way.

More to the point was a recent quote I read reflecting on all this recent "vinyl love" going on; it's NOT the medium (format) so much as it is the investment of a listener's time to actually sit still long enough to take it all in as art rather than commodity.

Whereas the timing was nearly perfect for DVD-V's launch, it couldn't have been much worse for DVD-A after you factor iPod, mp3, SACD, DullDisc (intentional spelling). People's on-the-go indifference sealed it's fate.

SteveM said:

True. My friends and other family members don't even have stereos in their houses, they have iPods and iPod radio docks. That's their music library. Their handful of CDs sit in a closet and once ripped to their iPods are never seen.

The iPod goes in the car, on the road, to the beach, to the kitchen, living room, wherever the person goes. He gets his own music when and where he wants it. No setting up speakers, no sitting in the right spot.

Face it, we're all weird. No one does what we do. Sad, really.

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Steve:

My children (the youngest will be 32 next month) have known I am weird for years if not decades but they still come around and visit occasionally. They definitely don't get the obsession with surround music but like the whole home theater thing.

Justin

phydo said:

Steve:

My children (the youngest will be 32 next month) have known I am weird for years if not decades but they still come around and visit occasionally. They definitely don't get the obsession with surround music but like the whole home theater thing.

Justin

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Maybe, you don't play their type of music.

5.1 streaming is possible, but in it's infancy. Now, if someone could develop a way to use the ps3 to playback a 5.1 stream, there's an idea. But even putting together a 5.1 stream is a challenge with what little support there is for that technology. There's windows media surround and mp3 surround, the mp3 surround encoders are just really a demo version that is very basic and barely works, and windows media surround doesn't work on mac. Plus, the type of software that online broadcasters typically use to program things don't support any 5.1 content, and they can't justify the cost of adding that to their software.

Hmmm....maybe I need to find someone good at ps3 hacking and see what can be developed on that end, because another problem with 5.1 streaming is the lack of computers out there equipped to play them back. There are probably more ps3s online and hooked up to 5.1 systems then computers equipped for 5.1 playback.

ArmyOfQuad said:

Now, if someone could develop a way to use the ps3 to playback a 5.1 stream, there's an idea.

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Already exists. PS3s have Dolby and DTS multichannel decoders built in (as do all Blu-ray players). The problem is not technical; the problem is one of product demand and distribution.

I mean a 5.1 audio stream from the internet, windows media or mp3, something like that.

Basically.....get this to play in 5.1 on a home theater system using a ps3, http://www.nrk.no/kanal/nrk_51_flerkanal/1.4654231

^ Great Post!

Is there anyone here but me that feels that they don't want their music on a hard drive, even though it's convenient?
I love the physical disc, art work, etc.
Sure it takes up space but I feel like I own that music (although, the Rights are not mine)!
I guess, I'm a touchy feely type individual.
I'm sure I can't be the only one.

I would always prefer to hold the disc (CD, LP, Tape) in my hands than have the file on a hard drive.

I agree. That's why I have a disc printer, empty jewel cases, photo paper, and a color printer. Of course, the problem with that is that these burnable discs do have a shelf life, so the hard drive is necessary for a backup, and a 2nd hard drive for another backup.

Perpendicular said:

^ Great Post!

Is there anyone here but me that feels that they don't want their music on a hard drive, even though it's convenient?
I love the physical disc, art work, etc.
Sure it takes up space but I feel like I own that music (although, the Rights are not mine)!
I guess, I'm a touchy feely type individual.
I'm sure I can't be the only one.

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I like both. I'm in my third year of primarily listening via Squeezebox, but I still buy physical media (and immediately copy it to redundantly backed up hard drive) far more often than I buy downloads. For me, the Squeezebox is more life-changing than merely convenient. It's not just having my own collection at my fingertips (the searchability and potential for A/B comparison by themselves makes it fantastic), but also the ability to integrate my own collection (all in lossless FLAC, not MP3) with internet radio and other streaming services that makes it so valuable to me.

ArmyOfQuad said:

I mean a 5.1 audio stream from the internet, windows media or mp3, something like that.

Basically.....get this to play in 5.1 on a home theater system using a ps3, http://www.nrk.no/kanal/nrk_51_flerkanal/1.4654231

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That's what I mean too. The fact that PS3s have Dolby and DTS decoders inside means that they can decode a surround bitstream no matter where it comes from. It doesn't have to come off of an optical disc. It can be a stream off the 'net that is cached and played from the HD. All these things are possible, and were planned for in the Blu-ray Live spec.

jimby said:

That's what I mean too. The fact that PS3s have Dolby and DTS decoders inside means that they can decode a surround bitstream no matter where it comes from. It doesn't have to come off of an optical disc. It can be a stream off the 'net that is cached and played from the HD. All these things are possible, and were planned for in the Blu-ray Live spec.

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Ok....how do you play that stream I linked on a 5.1 system using a ps3 then? It may have dts or dolby digital decoders, but that's not what that stream is.

Bob Romano said:

My question would be why are the labels putting so much into vinyl again? Does a label make more profit from a vinyl release than from a CD or DVD? That 180 gram vinyl can't be cheap....

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Apparently, there is no "Digital Rights Management" involved.
I'm sure someone will supply a more detailed explanation.

ArmyOfQuad said:

Ok....how do you play that stream I linked on a 5.1 system using a ps3 then? It may have dts or dolby digital decoders, but that's not what that stream is.

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I didn't say that it could play the stream in your link; I said that technically there is no problem for playing Dolby or DTS bitstreams from over the net, either streamed or cached. The critical technology is already in the PS3. All that is required is a service to supply the content, and some software on the client side to make it work.

Ok, so you didn't mean windows media when you said that's what you mean too. Back to the drawing board then. For an over the internet stream, windows media seems to be what makes the most sense at this time. It allows you to set different bit rates in the same stream to allow high quality to those with lots of bandwidth, and compromised lower bitrates to those with less bandwidth. If I could even find a way to stream dolby digital or dts, that would be one high bandwidth stream. Plus there would probably be license fees involved in that. Would be one hell of a stream, though, perhaps that's something to look into for the future.

If only we could get some sort of standard for 5.1 on the radio. I mean, heck, my cable provides me with dolby digital. Radio barely got any 5.1. But, I suppose the lack of available titles to play on surround radio doesn't help much. It seems video and tv gets everything, music gets nothing.

Hmmmm....could someone set up a cable radio station that does quad/surround using dolby digital. probably too much money to set something like that up. A windows media stream, on the other hand, I could run for $200 a month, including licensing. If only I could find a way to get it in people's houses on equipment they already have, and spread the word. Perhaps someday when I have a little extra to throw at that, I'll bring that idea back.

ArmyOfQuad said:

Ok, so you didn't mean windows media when you said that's what you mean too. Back to the drawing board then. For an over the internet stream, windows media seems to be what makes the most sense at this time. It allows you to set different bit rates in the same stream to allow high quality to those with lots of bandwidth, and compromised lower bitrates to those with less bandwidth.

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Windows Media would a bad choice for surround streams because it is not supported in most hardware; Dolby Digital can support surround streams as low as 384kbps, which is half the bandwidth of most slow DSL connections. It would be the obvious choice.

There is nothing about Windows Media that makes it preferable for surround content; license fees for DTS and Dolby are on the encoder and decoder sides, no license for the actual streams.

Yes, but to stream in dts or dolby digital, I would have to encode, wouldn't I. That would fall under encoder side. And would mean licensing. And buying encoders. If they make one that does what I'm talking about (I honestly don't know, I'd like to think they do, but I've been surprised when doing this with windows media what things you would think exist actually don't)

I wouldn't even know what to use to do live encoding and streaming in dolby digital, the only encoders I know of are encoders to make discs. Not to stream.

I've already done it with windows media. I'd love to find a better and easier way to get 5.1 in people's houses via a live internet stream. If you have knowledge on how to do it with dolby digital or dts instead, please point me in the right direction. I'd love to learn more. If I could find the way to take it in that direction, that would be much easier then trying to establish windows media as a standard.

Perpendicular said:

^ Great Post!

Is there anyone here but me that feels that they don't want their music on a hard drive, even though it's convenient?
I love the physical disc, art work, etc.
Sure it takes up space but I feel like I own that music (although, the Rights are not mine)!
I guess, I'm a touchy feely type individual.
I'm sure I can't be the only one.

Click to expand...

I think plenty of people lament the loss of things like the intricate album cover, liner notes, etc., and, no, the fact that you can display it on your IPod screen isn't enough. It's just not where technology is headed, though. Portability rules. One positive thing I do personally take from all this is that a hell of a lot greener to go digital.

Let me tell you.......if you think what's happening to actual physical music media is sad, let's see how bookstores are doing in five years. That's going to be a bitch.

jimby said:

No. Vinyl represents an infinitesimally small amount of revenue compared to CDs or downloads. But vinyl sells more than DVD-A or SACD did.

More importantly, the production costs are low on vinyl. No need to pay for an expensive surround mix.

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and it's an additional revenue stream. if the younger audiophile buys the CD AND the 180 gram vinyl of that new MGMT album, they just gave the industry about three times the money. diversification of revenue is always smart when you're struggling.

timbre4 said:

True, we want DVD-A so bad that we continue discussing what might have been, well past the autopsy! What could we do different? What really went wrong? etc.

Quite by accident, I have the latest GQ magazine and it includes an article named Return to HiFi that dismisses the MP3 players and docks as tinny, rediscover your CD collection (duh) and better grade separates. The backlash to mp3 quality is well under way.

Click to expand...

Not that a men's fashion magazine should be expected to offer competent advice about audio in the first place, and lord knows the amount on nonsense written about mp3 sound in the non-audio AND audio press is copious, but one might point out to the article author that CDs(or SACDs or DVD-A ) would sound 'tinny' when played over docks too. And given the quality of modern CD mastering, 'better grade separates' is even more dubious advice now than it was in previous decades. Most people would do much better to simply upgrade to decent loudspeakers...which tend to be the LEAST spouse-friendly purchases, unfortunately, and thus probably least likely to happen.