4 channel newbie

[SPXER]

Greetings all quad-o-philes.
I originally bought a Realistic quad receiver back in the 70's. I then got 4 very large no-name speakers for my very small bedroom in my parent home. It didn't sound very good so when I moved to a place of my own I forgot about quad and went stereo. Years later, in my present home, I have always felt something was not working well in my listening room (living room). About a year ago I wired up a Hafler circuit to a couple of video surround sound speakers and whoa, everything started sounding like the music was coming alive. So now I would like to get something potentially better than the Lafayette 4 channel adapter I am using now. I am really only going to use it with stereo sources. I have read the Sansui Vario Matrix is a good as it gets. Any suggestions?
I have found that placing the "rear" speakers on the sides and ahead of my listening position works best for my room and me.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Greetings all quad-o-philes.
I originally bought a Realistic quad receiver back in the 70's. I then got 4 very large no-name speakers for my very small bedroom in my parent home. It didn't sound very good so when I moved to a place of my own I forgot about quad and went stereo. Years later, in my present home, I have always felt something was not working well in my listening room (living room). About a year ago I wired up a Hafler circuit to a couple of video surround sound speakers and whoa, everything started sounding like the music was coming alive. So now I would like to get something potentially better than the Lafayette 4 channel adapter I am using now. I am really only going to use it with stereo sources. I have read the Sansui Vario Matrix is a good as it gets. Any suggestions?

SPXER pleased to meet you! Nice intro looking forward to getting to know you.
Sansui Vario Matrix for QS and Fosgate for SQ surround in vintage tronics is as good as it gets also for stereo to surround, my main interest. There is also the Space and Image Composer a delight. If you want something new look to the Involve Surround Master. It does QS and SQ but alas not the same wrap around performance of the older units. There are good ways around that.

 

[SPXER]

SPXER pleased to meet you! Nice intro looking forward to getting to know you.
Sansui Vario Matrix for QS and Fosgate for SQ surround in vintage tronics is as good as it gets also for stereo to surround, my main interest. There is also the Space and Image Composer a delight. If you want something new look to the Involve Surround Master. It does QS and SQ but alas not the same wrap around performance of the older units. There are good ways around that.

Thanks for the reply Sonik Wiz. Isn't the Fosgate for car audio? Do you use it for home audio with a PS? I find Fosgate amps for sale but I am not sure it is what you are referencing. I find nothing on Space and Image Composer.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Thanks for the reply Sonik Wiz. Isn't the Fosgate for car audio? Do you use it for home audio with a PS? I find Fosgate amps for sale but I am not sure it is what you are referencing. I find nothing on Space and Image Composer.

Good call... Fosgate was well known in the early days for quality auto audio. I believe the unit you are refering to is the Gavotte decoder for a car. Besides that he brought to life the Space and Image Composer , the Fosgate 101A decoder with Tate II, several models of the Space Matrix 360 line, and other following models such as the Model 5 and others that eventually was consumed & devoured by Harman Kardon. All of these were for home audio. The S&IC and 101A were designed for SQ decoding & had excellent 270 deg wrap around surround for stereo.

There is enormous amount of info here on QQ & one frequently over looked resource (besides the search function) are the permalinks on the front page. A few I might recommend are:

http://issuu.com/disclord/
http://www.quadraphonic.info/
https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/quadindx.htm
And of course for even more basic info just search wiki for quadraphonic or Google, and behold the results.

There's a lot of love around here for vintage 'tronics but of course it's ancient by now, expensive and expensive to repair. I could only suggest the Involve Surround Master as a modern reliable unit. The only drawback is it lacks the wrap around stereo the Fosgates & Sansui's have.

And besides matrix decoders be sure to look into the wonderful world of SACD's, Blu-Ray Pure Audio, & even check out DVD-A.

 

[SPXER]

I think I have stepped off into the deep water. It also seems these decoders are hard to come by.

 

[barfle]

The Involve Audio Surround Master 3 is available for around $700 including shipping from Australia. I got mine yesterday, brand new.

They offer $150 in discounts to QQ members.

 

[SPXER]

I read the "History of Surround Sound Processing: The Battle for Dolby Pro Logic II".
So do I understsnd that DPL2 is the good stereo to quad synthesizer?
If so wouldn't a receiver with DPL2 be acceptable?

 

[kfbkfb]

I have Dolby Pro-Logic (original) + 2 (music and movie) and Hafler/DynaQuad as my fake surround sound creation systems...I like the Hafler system best (it seems to have more directionality than the logic assisted Dolby Pro-Logic 2 music mode), a low priority plan of mine is to make a speaker switch for my system with Dolby Pro-Logic so I can have Hafler decoding.

One item - since ~2014, Dolby Surround has been redefined, Dolby Pro-Logic systems are no longer available in new audio/video receivers.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Sonik Wiz]

I read the "History of Surround Sound Processing: The Battle for Dolby Pro Logic II".
So do I understsnd that DPL2 is the good stereo to quad synthesizer?
If so wouldn't a receiver with DPL2 be acceptable?

Pros: It would be a big step up from what you've described as your current equipment. It will provide a significant amount of adjustability. I esp like the way center front width can be adjusted. It is a good improvement on it's predecessor original Dolby Pro Logic. The settings can be adjusted so you get a quite good QS decoding simaler to the Involve Surround Master.

Cons: Like the Involve SM it does not do wrap around surround. It also is a single band decoder where as the SM is tri-band. That means with the SM low bass from center front will not obscure a lead guitar meant to be in right rear. The DPL II will find a compromise in this regard.

Opinion: I used DPL II for years just because there wasn't anything better. It drove me learn what's called up-mixing on the PC so I could replicate the Sansui 270 deg wrap around stereo to surround. Since I'v had the SM I would never listen to DPL II inpreferance to it. The DPL II sounds a bit dull & muffled and what we quaddies would call "slow". That is slow to react to fast transients or fast changing directions in the music.

But I'd say they only thing that matters if it sounds good to you. Maybe try a decent receiver with DPL II & if you're happy, fine. If not we will all be glad to suggest how to spend your money.

 

[SPXER]

Everyone seems to reference to the Sansui system. If it was so good, why isn't it just replicated? How difficult could it be copying from a discrete component era?

 

[somethingcleveridunno]

Everyone seems to reference to the Sansui system. If it was so good, why isn't it just replicated? How difficult could it be copying from a discrete component era?

Doesn't the Surround Master basically do that?

The schematic for the QSD-1 is readily available: Manual: QSD1 SANSUI : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Hitachi ICs used in it are long out of production, so alternatives would need to be found.

 

[quadsearcher]

Doesn't the Surround Master basically do that?

The schematic for the QSD-1 is readily available: Manual: QSD1 SANSUI : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Hitachi ICs used in it are long out of production, so alternatives would need to be found.

It really wasn't a discrete era for circuit design, at least not like the 50s or early sixties. Plenty of units in the 70s put complicated unique functions into now-obsolete IC packages. Kind of like today, except hardware is often more generic and SW is rarer.

 

[quadsearcher]

Everyone seems to reference to the Sansui system. If it was so good, why isn't it just replicated? How difficult could it be copying from a discrete component era?

Doesn't the Surround Master basically do that?

The schematic for the QSD-1 is readily available: Manual: QSD1 SANSUI : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Hitachi ICs used in it are long out of production, so alternatives would need to be found.

It really wasn't a discrete era for circuit design, at least not like the 50s or early sixties. Plenty of units in the 70s put complicated unique functions into now-obsolete IC packages. Kind of like today, except hardware is often more generic and SW is rarer.






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[Sonik Wiz]

Everyone seems to reference to the Sansui system. If it was so good, why isn't it just replicated? How difficult could it be copying from a discrete component era?

It was replicated. See posts earlier. Involve took obsolete Sansui patents updated them and brought them into today.

 

[SPXER]

You will have to excuse my ignorance on this subject as I have never even had a surround sound system for movies. I have been contented with vintage stereo equipment. So, I am starting from Hafler.
To set up a proper surround music system (stereo to quad), I would need
(1) decoder
(2) 4 or 5 channel integrated amp
(3) 4 or 5 speakers
or a vintage Sansui QRX (maybe the simplest approach)
Is this correct?

 

[kfbkfb]

https://www.thetechedvocate.org/the-dts-neo6-surround-sound-processing-format/
https://blog.son-video.com/en/2018/...t-processing-technologies-from-dolby-and-dts/
Although Dolby Surround has been redefined, there are systems from DTS to create fake surround sound included in many new audio/video receivers.

New audio/video receivers also properly decode Dolby Digital and DTS surround sound soundtracks (found on nearly all DVDs and [UHD]Blu-rays), old receivers with just QS and/or SQ matrix decoders won't properly decode surround sound movie soundtracks.


Kirk Bayne

 

[MidiMagic]

"Redefining Dolby Surround" means depriving us of the old decoder.

 

[kfbkfb]

"Redefining Dolby Surround" means depriving us of the old decoder.

Yes, I think Dolby Labs should reintroduce the original Dolby Pro-Logic (I have many VHS Hi-Fi movies with Dolby Surround encoded soundtracks [that I haven't replaced with DVDs/Blu-rays]), I hope my 19 year old Pioneer receiver (with DPL) keeps operating.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Sonik Wiz]

You will have to excuse my ignorance on this subject as I have never even had a surround sound system for movies. I have been contented with vintage stereo equipment. So, I am starting from Hafler.
To set up a proper surround music system (stereo to quad), I would need
(1) decoder
(2) 4 or 5 channel integrated amp
(3) 4 or 5 speakers
or a vintage Sansui QRX (maybe the simplest approach)
Is this correct?

Yes you are correct on all points. Number one is the trickiest!

I posted this sometime back that might be useful to consider:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/quad-the-middle-ground.28708/

 

[barfle]

You will have to excuse my ignorance on this subject as I have never even had a surround sound system for movies. I have been contented with vintage stereo equipment. So, I am starting from Hafler.
To set up a proper surround music system (stereo to quad), I would need
(1) decoder
(2) 4 or 5 channel integrated amp
(3) 4 or 5 speakers
or a vintage Sansui QRX (maybe the simplest approach)
Is this correct?

That’s pretty much the way I started, although I already had a stereo amp, so I added a second stereo amp.

You can probably get vintage decoders on-line, but the Involve Audio Surround Master is a current product, it’s reasonably priced, and there are discounts available here on QQ.