Another kind of multichannel audio: front-end stereophonic multichannel

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Joined
Nov 2, 2023
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Hi!

I have searched over the QQ forum and I didn't found a category nor a specific thread that address the topic I want to talk about.

Multichannel audio, which distinguishes itself from monophonic audio or stereophonic audio over 2 channels (possibly with a third channel dedicated to sub-bass), is generally envisioned as surround audio. That is- speakers set out around the listening area (from sides, rear, above or below) or attempting to simulate sounds coming from points around the listener(s).

However, nearly since the very moment of the inception of stereophonic sound in the thirties of the 20th century, some seek to improve stereophonic record and reproduction of sound by devoting more than two channels to the sound coming from the front of the listener(s).

As an example, I would like to recall the extraordinary work of engineer William Snow of Bell Laboratories described in 1934 and republished in August 1953 in the Audio magazine (page 20 of the printed document) : https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/50s/Audio-1957-Aug.pdf

This works demonstrated that three discrete channels record reproduced on three independent loudspeakers, without any kind of mixing between any of the three tracks of the record, greatly improve the faithfulness of the reproduced sound-stage to the actual live sound-stage.

Obviously, Snow's groundbreaking work led to the memorable three channels stereophonic records of RCA Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence or Everest in the late fifties and early sixties of the 20th century.

W. Snow himself persevered with his idea and wrote an article in the Journal of the SMPTE in November 1953: https://www.one-electron.com/Archives/Audio/AudioJournals/Snow 1953 Basic Principles of Stereophonic Sound.pdf

W. Snow has summarized the theoretical grounds of his proposed ideal system on this sketch (my avatar) :

ideal-stereophonic-system-snow-1953.png


Nevertheless, W. Snow had to circumvent the practical feasibility of the technology of his time by once again limiting his technique to three channels.

But others have adhered to the core idea of W. Snow (a large number of recording channels and a correspondingly large number of reproducing channels) and have practiced experimentation of their own.

As a Frenchman, I cannot ignore the experiments of Georges Cabasse, the founder of the Cabasse loudspeaker company in 1950. My research allowed me to learn that G. Cabasse made some experiments of recording and reproduction with 8 channels in 1959. Later, he attempted to hack quadraphonic coding techniques in the seventies and after that the earlier 5.1 home-theater devices in the nineties by utilizing the available channels only on the front of the listener(s) in order to demonstrate the potential of this set up to improve the fidelity of the reproduction to the live sound. As for me, I was never able to attend these public demonstrations, during which small orchestras playing live were compared to the reproduction of the recordings of said orchestras. But all the testimonies that I have been able to read are unanimous in saying that these demonstrations were extraordinary indeed.

I therefore wanted to install that kind of front-end multi-channel stereophonic system in my home to listen to the recordings made with this technique. Fortunately, there are a few. Not counting the historic recordings of RCA, Mercury and Everest, now finally available in three channels, some sound engineers faithful to the ideas of G. Cabasse have in fact produced a few albums in 4, 5 or 6 channels. At the moment, I only have three channels on the front. But as a classical music lover, the results I obtained convinced me that this method represents a very significant improvement in fidelity to the original sound.

This is why I propose to devote this discussion to all multichannel recordings which correspond to these principles:
- more than two recording channels on the front;
- all reproduction channels at the front, preferably as many as there are recording channels without mixing.
 
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I have long felt that the centre channel is not necessary in a home audio system. If the speakers are positioned properly not too far apart they image perfectly across the front without any additional channels.

In a large room or theater you would need more channels to be able to smoothly position the sound across the front with no holes.

I'm more into popular music and want the extra channels spread around me. That being said I can understand why someone whose main interest is in Classical music might want the orchestra spread across the front via more than two or three channels.

With a conventional Quad or 5.1 system you could space all the speakers across the front, to produce that sort of sound field. Recordings made specifically for that kind of speaker set up would obviously produce the best results.

Good idea to start a thread on this, I don't recall anyone else bringing this topic up!
 
https://www.highfidelityreview.com/10-rca-living-stereo-sacds-coming-in-september.html
I bought 1 or 2 of these, I'm not a big classical music fan, but I wanted to hear discrete 3 channel stereo (someday - which is now, since I recently bought several MCH SACD players).

Some QQ members aren't fans of discrete center channels (5.1), I have my A/V receiver set to phantom center channel for playback of 5.1 content (I only bought 4 speakers + subwoofer about 5 years ago).


Kirk Bayne
 
In the ancient 80's I was in touch with a quadraphile whose main passion was to recreate live rock performances as realistically as possible in his home. To this end he had 4 speakers in front driven by a Sansui QSD-2 operated in the surround synth mode.
The left back output now became far left front, right back output became far right front, and the regular front left/right chs were set up normally.

That meant a sound panned hard left in a stereo signal now emanates from the far left speaker. A right only signal now comes from far right. And what would normally be the front L/R outputs still come from there. A sound panned left to right would make a smooth sweep across the front soundstage.

He finished it off with another Sansui QSD-2 for rear chs operated in the Hall mode. He only used the decoded rear outputs for this. This kept any direct sounds from popping up in the rear but kept the ambience/audience sounds behind him but still had good L/R separation in the rears. I realize this breaks @Scytales rule of sound only in front. But still I have remembered & respected his ingenuity all these years later.
 
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Thank you all for your replies.

@par4ken, @kfbkfb, the center channel is obviously required with 3 channels front-end stereophonic sound, but a center channel is not required when we look at the generalization of this method. I am already aware of some 4 and 6 channels front-end recordings which obviously don't have a center channel. I currently try to get my hand on some of this recordings.

The most important requirement in that kind of technique is that the lay-out of the loudspeakers has to closely match the lay-out of the microphones, microphones which have to be as truely omnidirectional as possible, as I have been told by sound engineers who practice this kind of recording.

By the way, one of this engineer also told that he think that some Mercury Living Presence were better than the average RCA Living Stereo 3 channels recordings, precisely because the microphones that Mercury sound engineer Richard Fine used to use were closer to real omni than those used by the RCA company.
 
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I have a couple of the “Living Stereo” reissues on three-channel SACD. These were recorded, according to the liner notes, with three microphones, and released on stereo LP with the center channel blended into the left and right channels.

To be honest, I don’t notice the center all that much, probably because I spent so much of my life listening to systems without a center channel, and the stereo sound field did a pretty good job of spreading the instruments across the space between the speakers. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with the recordings, it’s just that, with a decent stereo setup and seating that’s fairly close to the sweet spot, there’s little to be gained from that center channel.

That being said, I recall in the early 1970s my dear old Altec 724 tumer/preamp had a center channel output that was just the straight multiplexed FM signal out. I never bothered with it.
 
I thought the main premise of these 3 track recordings from this era was to allow the center lead voice/instrument channel to be mixed precisely with the backing band in post. So the final stereo mix came out perfect and the entire thing didn't rely on nailing the entire balance at recording.

I don't mean to be dismissive of anything and perhaps there was more thought around preserving or delivering the 3 track!

At any rate the modern surround formats sure make it easy to preserve and deliver these as a 3 track multichannel recording now! (Easy... I mean, someone still has to find the tapes and do all the things!)
 
I'm on the opposite side of the center debate. My L/R can deliver a rock solid center image. But when I have multiple people over for a movie or a multichannel music session, a phantom center doesn't work. Also, I'm not a fan of folding a discrete channel back into the L/R. I feel there is potential for sound occupying the same spectrum to muddy the presentation when combined. Granted I don't upmix, so if the original content lacks a center, then that's how it's played.
 
Re: center channel (or any other channels)

More speaker channels = more better :D

I mean, the only thing better than more channels is even more channels! Ours go up to 12!

"But I have a good phantom center."

But ours go up to 12!
 
@jimfisheye

I do see obvious benefits in reproducing music on multiple main channels :

a) the burden to obtain the desired sound pressure level is shared between multiple channels, hence each loudspeaker works farther apart from the SPL level at which it begins to significantly distort ;

b) corollary : less power per channel needed in order to produce the same SPL level as in 2.0 stereo ;

c) the bass frequencies are emitted from more than one or two places, thus the annoying modes the dimensions of the listening room are responsible for are more diffused and the low end of the spectrum is less disturbed.

I have search through my disc collection in order to find the "oldest of the modern" front-end multichannel recordings I own.

Here it is [Passavant Music PAS 1007, OOP]:

passavant-pas1007.png

It was recorded April 19, 2003, by M. Philippe Muller, former manager at Cabasse who nowadays runs his own music recording studio.

An interesting CD album: on one disc we can listen to the same program, at first in 2.0 stereo in 16 bits/44.1 kHz PCM and then in 5.0 in DTS Coherent Sound, separated from each other by some 20 mn of silence as a security in case the disc is played with non-DTS compliant devices.

Here his an explanation of the recording techniques used to produce such kind of disc from an album made by another French record company:

direct-soundfield-recording.png


I translate the relevant information from the original French text :

"Although the equipment used for listening (amplifiers, loudspeakers) are of the same kind as for home-theater, because in this case we exclusively deal with audio reproduction, moreover of classical music, the lay-out of the loudspeakers have to match as closely as possible the recording set-up.

All our multichannel recordings are realized according to the DSR [Direct Soundfield Recording] procedure [...]. The 5 omnidirectionnal microphones (pressure sensors) are laid out at the recording session in front of the sound source following an arc and equidistant from each other. The ends of this arc draw an angle of approximately 120° (see the drawing opposite).

Under no circumstances should speakers be placed at the rear- that would completely distort the soundstage. "
 
Just riffing on this a little more.

The effect of multiple speakers sharing the sound pressure and dynamics like you describe makes a surround system more akin to a live concert experience. The spacial and sound in motion elements completely aside for that comment! Just the fact that multiple sound sources (speakers) has a weight to it like being in front of a band with multiple sound sources. ie. Multiple amps and drums and the whole bit.
 
I'm pretty convinced that some of the quad recordings back in the day were engineered for 4 front speakers. I don't have all of the Dutton quad sacds, but some of the ones I have make most sense audibly with the speakers in various front configurations. Most notably A Chorus Line
 
I'm pretty convinced that some of the quad recordings back in the day were engineered for 4 front speakers. I don't have all of the Dutton quad sacds, but some of the ones I have make most sense audibly with the speakers in various front configurations. Most notably A Chorus Line
Wow, I already thought there was confusion about the 4.0 Quad setup. Some say they use the 4-corner approach similar to the old Quad logo's, then others like Wendy Carlos argue that no Quad speaker placement should be the same as home theater 5.1 setup. Now we have another 4 speakers up front placement argument. Most recordings don't even say what is proper for the specific recording or what the recording engineer monitored or mixed for as far as speaker location for playback. It seems odd that they would expect the consumer/listener to move speakers around for different recording. It is a lot of work to get the room treatment and speaker placement correct for one placement, I wouldn't want to have to keep moving the setup. I would be interested in other opinions and or ideas on this!

I could see where the argument for home theater setups would be made, since they are able to support many formats. Stereo all the way to Atmos.
 
Just riffing on this a little more.

The effect of multiple speakers sharing the sound pressure and dynamics like you describe makes a surround system more akin to a live concert experience. The spacial and sound in motion elements completely aside for that comment! Just the fact that multiple sound sources (speakers) has a weight to it like being in front of a band with multiple sound sources. ie. Multiple amps and drums and the whole bit.
I have an article from 1962 on how to build your own Cinerama 5-channel speaker array. The 5 speakers are placed in a line with the left and right ones at the ends.
 
Most recordings don't even say what is proper for the specific recording or what the recording engineer monitored or mixed for as far as speaker location for playback. It seems odd that they would expect the consumer/listener to move speakers around for different recording. It is a lot of work to get the room treatment and speaker placement correct for one placement, I wouldn't want to have to keep moving the setup.


My theory is that quad recording techniques were a real wild-west situation. If there were rules for mixing like modern day Atmos, where speakers are expected to be at certain exact positions +/- room for error, I've never heard of them.

Did the mixing engineer and recording engineer and the person doing the liner notes even talk?

I'm certain room treatment wasn't even a consideration.

I bought a set of 5 lightweight floorstanders, so they can easily be moved.
 
A lot of those 1970s quad mixes were absolutely experimental!

I don't have any sense for when discussing room treatment more seriously started to be more of a thing. Clearly some people and studio people responded to obvious physics in their face and did things. It maybe just wasn't documented standard procedure.

More speakers begs more critical setup but there were at least some studios that were setting up their stereo speakers with tape measure and level way back in the day. Probably more than a few of the more critical listeners in their homes too.
 
For those of you who wish to try at home this kind of front-end multichannel sound records, I inform you that the distributor of the French record companies BNL and Syrius have told me that some 5.0 DTS CD are still in stock despite being now out of print.

The sound engineer behind this two companies is Bernard Neveu, who was a close associate of G. Cabasse, for whom he has recorded almost every music used for demonstration purpose at various Hi-fi shows. In 1959, he also help G. Cabasse to make experimental 8 channels records (see his testimony in French) Obviously, he has a huge background in this kind of recording method.

The French distributor is SOCADISC : Socadisc

You can contact the distributor by mail (see E-mail address at the bottom of its webpage) to order the CDs. BNL/Syrius publishes a catalogue also available through its distributor. It is said in it that much more multichannel recordings up to 6 channels can be back ordered on USB-key. Beware that DVD-A is no longuer available, contrary to what the catalogue says.

Here are the remaining available albums on DTS CD, only classical music:

BNL:

BNL 112931
BNL 112931.jpg


BNL 112933 DSR
BNL 112933 DSR.jpg


BNL 112935
BNL 112935.jpeg


BNL 112940 DSR
BNL 112940 DSR.jpg


BNL 112942
BNL 112942.jpg


BNL 112943
BNL 112943.jpg


BNL 112944
BNL 112944.jpg


BNL 112945
BNL 112945.jpg
 
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Under no circumstances should speakers be placed at the rear- that would completely distort the soundstage. "
A statement like that just makes me want to do it! I would likely not bother to move my speakers to listen to the recording "properly".
My theory is that quad recording techniques were a real wild-west situation. If there were rules for mixing like modern day Atmos, where speakers are expected to be at certain exact positions +/- room for error, I've never heard of them.
And that is/was good! The rule is that there are no rules! Those early attempts were great, who wants every recording mixed exactly the same, according to someone's rules? They took chances and were not afraid to experiment!

Most listening rooms are what they are, you often have to fit in the speakers as best you can.

On the other hand there are preferred set-up/placements. Almost every quad receiver or decoder manual has a section of suggested speaker placements. They are often very different from one another. The only "standard" is the square placement, which IMHO is only practical for a single listener in a smallish room. Who really cares if something is coming from some exact location? I just want to be surrounded!

One manual I was looking at recently (Pioneer I think) showed one set-up with the speakers in a straight line, reminding me of the purpose of this thread!
 
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