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Boulez Conducts Bartok- "Concerto For Orchestra" (MQ/MAQ 32132): Q8 Vs. Sony SACD

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fredblue

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I've just recorded in the Four Toccatas Q8 - here's what came off the tape vs. what's on the Sony SACD:

Q8:
View attachment 42404

SACD:
View attachment 42406

Two things that strike me as odd - the front channels appear to be reversed, and the Q8 appears to be missing the second-to-last track :unsure:

Otherwise - unlike Sony's Bartok disc - this appears to be fairly representative of the original quad mix. Maybe the rear channels are a bit too low? And of course the faked center/sub are redundant.
very interesting, thank you for taking the time and trouble.

yes, the SACD Fronts do look swapped and the SACD Rears look too low too.

i guess ubertrout would know about that missing (added?) track.

looking at the C & LFE it does seem they'd be redundant, no biggy but apart from the Front to Back balance being out of whack on the SACD, it also looks like the Rears have been adjusted on the SACD because they appear closer in level to one another than the Rears on the Q8.

closer to the 4-ch discrete source than the other Masterworks Sony SACDs of Quad releases but still why Sony couldn't just release the Quad unmolested on the SACD i don't know.. o_O
 

ubertrout

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very interesting, thank you for taking the time and trouble.

yes, the SACD Fronts do look swapped and the SACD Rears look too low too.

i guess ubertrout would know about that missing (added?) track.

looking at the C & LFE it does seem they'd be redundant, no biggy but apart from the Front to Back balance being out of whack on the SACD, it also looks like the Rears have been adjusted on the SACD because they appear closer in level to one another than the Rears on the Q8.

closer to the 4-ch discrete source than the other Masterworks Sony SACDs of Quad releases but still why Sony couldn't just release the Quad unmolested on the SACD i don't know.. o_O
There's nothing I can find anywhere about a missing/added track. It's just four pieces, and they should be on both editions.
 

fredblue

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There's nothing I can find anywhere about a missing/added track. It's just four pieces, and they should be on both editions.
exhibit A:

E0F57C01-6534-4C7C-830F-155FE70BE56E.jpeg


either the SACD's got a bonus bit where E. Power of Tower Of Babel let rip with a gale force parp before bursting into the final passage.. or the Q8's missing something! 🧐
 

sjcorne

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I need to double-check and make sure I didn't record the tape with the fronts wired backwards o_O.
easily done! 👍
...and I did record it with the fronts flipped :ROFLMAO:. So no channel swapping on the SACD version required.

As for the 'missing' track, I think I found the answer on the back of the tape:

Screen Shot 2019-08-08 at 3.24.23 PM.png


It definitely doesn't look like there was room for much more tape in there:
biggs_tape_inside.jpg



So I guess we can (sort of) thank Sony for giving us the unedited discrete master for the first time...
 
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fredblue

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...and I did record it with the fronts flipped :ROFLMAO:. So no channel swapping on the SACD version required.

As for the 'missing' track, I think I found the answer on the back of the tape:

View attachment 42409

It definitely doesn't look like there was room for much tape in there:
View attachment 42410


So I guess we can (sort of) thank Sony for giving us the unedited discrete master for the first time...
by Jove, that's a full tape!!! 😱

just to briefly go off on a tangent.. it makes me wonder if some of those CBS Quads that didn't get the Q8 treatment were SQ-only because they were just a smidge too long and victims of such "mechanical limitations"? not double album (Bitches Brew or Don Ellis' Tears Of Joy) too long, just the wrong side of 47 minutes maybe...?
 
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J. PUPSTER

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I've just recorded in the Four Toccatas Q8 - here's what came off the tape vs. what's on the Sony SACD:

Q8:
View attachment 42404

SACD:
View attachment 42406

Two things that strike me as odd - the front channels appear to be reversed, and the Q8 appears to be missing the second-to-last track :unsure:

Otherwise - unlike Sony's Bartok disc - this appears to be fairly representative of the original quad mix. Maybe the rear channels are a bit too low? And of course the faked center/sub are redundant.
So I guess the question is; if the fronts are reversed which version sounds correct, might have cross channel influences?
 

ssully

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So I guess this thread is no longer for discussion of
Boulez Conducts Bartok- "Concerto For Orchestra" (MQ/MAQ 32132): Q8 Vs. Sony SACD

?
 

ubertrout

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So I guess this thread is no longer for discussion of
Boulez Conducts Bartok- "Concerto For Orchestra" (MQ/MAQ 32132): Q8 Vs. Sony SACD

?
It became a more general discussion of Sony's mixing practices for their single-layer SACDs compared to the quad mixes a while ago - the Bartok was just the most egregious case.
 

ubertrout

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steelydave

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There were a handful of Columbia Masterworks quad releases where the Q8 version was truncated - it seems like the physical upper limit of Q8 tape (as you can see in @sjcorne 's photo above) was somewhere between 49 and 50 minutes (which would've been about 100 minutes in stereo) so they edited the tape down rather than put it on two 30 minute tapes which I guess wouldn't have been cost effective given the lower sales of classical Q8's.

Aside from the E. Power Biggs mentioned above, the other ones I've found that are shortened are:

Michael Tilson-Thomas/Cleveland Orchestra 'Carmina Burana' (QAX 33172)
Leonard Bernstein 'Candide - Original Cast Recording' (QSA 32923)
Pierre Boulez/NY Philharmonic 'Boulez Conducts Wagner' (MAQ 32296)
Pierre Boulez/NY Philharmonic 'Bartok: Miraculous Mandarin' (MAQ 31368) [omits the 'Dance Suite' entirely]
Daniel Barenboim/London Philharmonic 'Elgar: Pomp & Circumstance Marches / Crown of India Suite' (MAQ 32936) [omits 'Imperial March Op. 32' entirely]
Daniel Barenboim/London Philharmonic 'Elgar: Falstaff (MAQ 32599) [omits 'Cockaigne Overture, Op. 40' entirely]

This isn't an exhaustive list, but I think it's the majority of them.
 
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