Dvd Audio LPCM 5.1

[Forfun]

I wish to say hello and thanks to all members.
May be my question has already been discussed here, but can't find the information I need.
Question:
What DVD Audio (or Universal) players can output LPCM 5.1 over the 5.1 analogue output connectors?
My present player (Pio DV 565) downmix these tracks to LPCM 2.0 so I hear just the front speakers. Quite strange because it diplays the tracks correctly to be 5.1.
I do not have this issue with dolby/dts/mlp 5.1 tracks.
I did the firmware upgrade posted somewhere in this forum, but the problem still exists.
So I thought I need a new player capable of outputting LPCM 5.1 tracks over the 5.1 analogue output connectos.
Thanks for helping and suggestions.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

??? All the ones that I've tried. ;-) What's your budget?

Kal

 

[Chris Gerhard]

That player should output 5.1 analog audio, you might check your settings and report back. Does it ouptut 5.1 for SACD? I own the Pioneer DV-588A and it outputs analog 5.1, but I don't recall the menu structure since I don't have the player set up now. I am not aware of a single DVD-A player with 5.1 analog output that won't output 5.1 when playing a 5.1 DVD-A, unless of course it is broken.

Chris

 

[winopener]

Quite strange... the only thing i can think for such a behaviour is a badly authored disc, with 5.1 LPCM at 96/24 - out of specs because it exceed the max. transfer rate.

 

[Forfun]

The tracks are 48/16 authored with DVD Audio Solo, using 6 mono wave files.
The player menu is configured to output to 5.1 speaker set up and all speakers in the bass management configured properly.
I am thinking of a player in the 400/500 USD price range.
I repeat that I do not have the issue playng Dvd Audio with dts 5.1/dolby 5.1/mlp 5.1 (all channels are audible). Only with LPCM 5.1 authored via DVD Audio Solo.
I tried also Discwelder Chrome II. Same result.(no sound from C, LFE, SLF and LFR, only from front speakers.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

Does the player output analog 5.1 with commercially released DVD-A? My guess is yes and the issue relates to the homemade DVD-A. I can promise you all DVD-A players with analog 5.1 audio output are designed to output analog 5.1 when playing a 5.1 DVD-A. Is your homemade DVD-A using MLP to compress the LPCM? I don't have any software to make a DVD-A so I know nothing about the process, but your issue probably isn't the player. Neil Wilkes will stop by hopefully and if knows anything about that software package will likely have some suggestions.

Chris

 

[Forfun]

Does the player output analog 5.1 with commercially released DVD-A? My guess is yes and the issue relates to the homemade DVD-A. I can promise you all DVD-A players with analog 5.1 audio output are designed to output analog 5.1 when playing a 5.1 DVD-A. Is your homemade DVD-A using MLP to compress the LPCM? I don't have any software to make a DVD-A so I know nothing about the process, but your issue probably isn't the player. Neil Wilkes will stop by hopefully and if knows anything about that software package will likely have some suggestions.

Chris

Thanks Chris, all commercially available DVD-A in my collection play fine, but it is true that none of them uses LPCM 5.1 uncompressed format. They all use compression like DTS, Dolby or MLP.
DVD Audio Solo produces only LPCM uncompressed files and these, if authored in 5.1 format, are ouputted from my player (Pioneer DV 565 in Europe (DV 563 in the States), only from front speakers, regardless of frequency or lenght of bitwords.
I author using 48Kz/16bit.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

Thanks Chris, all commercially available DVD-A in my collection play fine, but it is true that none of them uses LPCM 5.1 uncompressed format. They all use compression like DTS, Dolby or MLP.
DVD Audio Solo produces only LPCM uncompressed files and these, if authored in 5.1 format, are ouputted from my player (Pioneer DV 565 in Europe (DV 563 in the States), only from front speakers, regardless of frequency or lenght of bitwords.
I author using 48Kz/16bit.

I don't know if these DVD-A players are capable of playing uncompressed LPCM at 5.1, I have never seen anything but Blu-ray discs with that. Aren't there software packages that use MLP? That would also get more music on the disc. One player that you might try is the Panasonic DMP-BD10A/K, a Blu-ray player with DVD-A playback, assuming you don't mind spending a lot of money. It is clearly able to play Blu-ray 5.1 LPCM. You might be able to send a test disc to an owner of the Panasonic player or maybe it is already known by members here that own the player. I know Jon Urban owned it, at least used to.

Chris

 

[sukothai]

You can play LPCM as long as there is enough bandwidth. You will not be able to play LPCM at 5.1 if you are at 96K, but you should be fine at 48/16. I have done 4.0 at 96/24 without problems, but as soon as I add a fifth channel (be it center, or LFE) I have to compress (I mean reduce) using MLP or downsample to 48/24 or 96/16. If I add the 6th channel, then I'm limited further. So it is all in the bandwidth calculation.

- Ben

 

[neil wilkes]

Thanks Chris, all commercially available DVD-A in my collection play fine, but it is true that none of them uses LPCM 5.1 uncompressed format. They all use compression like DTS, Dolby or MLP.
DVD Audio Solo produces only LPCM uncompressed files and these, if authored in 5.1 format, are ouputted from my player (Pioneer DV 565 in Europe (DV 563 in the States), only from front speakers, regardless of frequency or lenght of bitwords.
I author using 48Kz/16bit.

That player is a hound. No other word for it. Sorry.
There was (eventually) a firmware update that fixed the booktype error (The DVD-A specs were changed from version 115 to 125, and this was not taken into account on the 565/563)
When Pioneer eventually fixed the problem - and this was IMHO in no small amount due to a massive campaign run from QQ) they fixed this issue, but broke stuff that was previously working - and Chrome 2 was seriously affected (Custom menu highlights were just not displayed).
It also outputs all below 200Hz to LFE in DVD-A mode. Regardless of any BM settings you make.

I will check in Solo, but it sounds as if there is a setup issue here as well.
Is the player actually in 5.1 mode? Is Solo set up right?
What version of Solo are you using please?
Is it licensed?
Ditto Chrome - what build? Is it licensed?
MLP is not compressed either - it is a data reduction system. Output is bit-for-bit identical to the input files. DD/DTS are perceptual systems that throw away data. I am sorry to bang on about this, but this really is not compression. Compression is the reduction of dynamics, not data reduction. Nit picking, I know - but hey!!

I would also advise using 24-bit. 16 bit is incredibly fragile, and the quality gain at 24 bit is very audible.

 

[spenceo]

Forfun, this thread:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7796

doesn't speak to your direct problem, it does add to sukothai comments.

Spence

BTW, I use a Pio 578a and DVD-A Solo and have had no problems with 5.1 playback

 

[Forfun]

That player is a hound. No other word for it. Sorry.
There was (eventually) a firmware update that fixed the booktype error (The DVD-A specs were changed from version 115 to 125, and this was not taken into account on the 565/563)
When Pioneer eventually fixed the problem - and this was IMHO in no small amount due to a massive campaign run from QQ) they fixed this issue, but broke stuff that was previously working - and Chrome 2 was seriously affected (Custom menu highlights were just not displayed).
It also outputs all below 200Hz to LFE in DVD-A mode. Regardless of any BM settings you make.

I will check in Solo, but it sounds as if there is a setup issue here as well.
Is the player actually in 5.1 mode? Is Solo set up right?
What version of Solo are you using please?
Is it licensed?
Ditto Chrome - what build? Is it licensed?
MLP is not compressed either - it is a data reduction system. Output is bit-for-bit identical to the input files. DD/DTS are perceptual systems that throw away data. I am sorry to bang on about this, but this really is not compression. Compression is the reduction of dynamics, not data reduction. Nit picking, I know - but hey!!

I would also advise using 24-bit. 16 bit is incredibly fragile, and the quality gain at 24 bit is very audible.

Thanks Neil for your reply.
The player is in 5.1 mode and that works because all DVD-A in my collection do play in 5.1 (except the ones I have done with DVD Audio Solo). I am using DVD Audio Solo version 1.6 build 0827301 and it is licensed.
Please, because I would like to replace my Pioneer, can you suggest a player (possibly indicating the equivalent european model - Price range 500/600 USD) surely capable of outputting LPCM 5.1 uncompressed files over its 5.1 analogue connectors? I like good sound first priority.
This is the main information I need because I want to replace my Pioneer but do not want to make any mistake.
Thanks again

 

[Forfun]

Forfun, this thread:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7796

doesn't speak to your direct problem, it does add to sukothai comments.

Spence

BTW, I use a Pio 578a and DVD-A Solo and have had no problems with 5.1 playback

Thank you Spenceo.
The DVD-A Solo discs that I made in 5.1 are displayed correctly in my Pio 565 as 5.1 display but only front speakers are fed.
If I play these Dvd in my Pc. Power Dvd recognize them as LPCM 5.1 and play them correctly. The Pioneer will not, as said.

 

[neil wilkes]

Thanks Neil for your reply.
The player is in 5.1 mode and that works because all DVD-A in my collection do play in 5.1 (except the ones I have done with DVD Audio Solo). I am using DVD Audio Solo version 1.6 build 0827301 and it is licensed.
Please, because I would like to replace my Pioneer, can you suggest a player (possibly indicating the equivalent european model - Price range 500/600 USD) surely capable of outputting LPCM 5.1 uncompressed files over its 5.1 analogue connectors? I like good sound first priority.
This is the main information I need because I want to replace my Pioneer but do not want to make any mistake.
Thanks again

Is that the build from June 14? (The website does not have the build number)
Reason I asked about it being licensed is that I was sort of wondering if there is a demo limitation, but not if it's licensed there isn't.
For a new player in that price range, I really do not know - I have heard lots of good things about Onkyo, but don't own one (apparently Richer Sounds have one at around £399). It took me 6 or 7 players to get one I was happy with in the end - it was a nightmare.
Player 1 - Would only play Group 1 on any DVD-A. That had to go.
Player #2 was the Pioneer 565 - updated the firmware (it refused to play discs like Tommy, amongst a lot of others) after the QQ campaign. It fixed that problem, but broke other stuff.
Player #3 was the next Pioneer - the 578. Can't remember the specific issue, but again NFG.
Player #4 was a Cambridge Audio 540 Azur. Firmware issues there too, specifically small pauses in playback on long MLP streams. CA refunded me, and we have got on really well since. I like them - great service.
Player #5 was a Yamaha S1500. That had DVD-V issues, and for laughs I will repeat the problem here. I swear this is true...I am a bit of a trekkie, and have the DVD collection of "The Next Generation". Several discs would not play in the Yamaha. I called the retailer, who told me - and I bull you no shit - "This player is not designed to play Sci-Fi discs". What's next - a CD player that won't play Rap? (point me at it!!)
Player #6 was a Denon 1910 - awful issues with Chrome authored discs.
The final inner was my still going strong 2910. I also have a 3910 now as well.

You may want to try the Denon range, or the Onkyo.
Also - will you please detail the problem and ask Cirlinca if they know of any issues with Pioneer compatibility? Chris Bidaut at Cirlinca is a really helpful guy.

 

[sukothai]

MLP is not compressed either - it is a data reduction system.

Duly noted and my post is corrected. I will try to remember to say "reduction" instead of "compression" in reference to MLP.

- Ben

 

[Forfun]

Is that the build from June 14? (The website does not have the build number)
Reason I asked about it being licensed is that I was sort of wondering if there is a demo limitation, but not if it's licensed there isn't.
For a new player in that price range, I really do not know - I have heard lots of good things about Onkyo, but don't own one (apparently Richer Sounds have one at around £399). It took me 6 or 7 players to get one I was happy with in the end - it was a nightmare.
Player 1 - Would only play Group 1 on any DVD-A. That had to go.
Player #2 was the Pioneer 565 - updated the firmware (it refused to play discs like Tommy, amongst a lot of others) after the QQ campaign. It fixed that problem, but broke other stuff.
Player #3 was the next Pioneer - the 578. Can't remember the specific issue, but again NFG.
Player #4 was a Cambridge Audio 540 Azur. Firmware issues there too, specifically small pauses in playback on long MLP streams. CA refunded me, and we have got on really well since. I like them - great service.
Player #5 was a Yamaha S1500. That had DVD-V issues, and for laughs I will repeat the problem here. I swear this is true...I am a bit of a trekkie, and have the DVD collection of "The Next Generation". Several discs would not play in the Yamaha. I called the retailer, who told me - and I bull you no shit - "This player is not designed to play Sci-Fi discs". What's next - a CD player that won't play Rap? (point me at it!!)
Player #6 was a Denon 1910 - awful issues with Chrome authored discs.
The final inner was my still going strong 2910. I also have a 3910 now as well.

You may want to try the Denon range, or the Onkyo.
Also - will you please detail the problem and ask Cirlinca if they know of any issues with Pioneer compatibility? Chris Bidaut at Cirlinca is a really helpful guy.

Thanks Neil, you're really a precious and helpful guy.
I have discovered the solution to my problem:
In the player menu for speakers 5.1 configuration I had to turn on the center
channel (choosing "Small size"). It was turned off because I do not have one (I don't think it's necessary with my Quad ESL63 front speakers).
Now also surround and sub speakers are fed.
Quite strange, because with commercial DVD-A, turning "Off" the center channels, does not affect the output to surround and sub speakers.
I am planning to purchase the Onkyo DV-SP504E This is the model number in Onkyo-Europe website. I have found the best price to be 340 euro.
Thanks again for your and other members help. :sun:sun:sun

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Player #6 was a Denon 1910 - awful issues with Chrome authored discs.
The final inner was my still going strong 2910. I also have a 3910 now as well.

What kind of issues? I author discs with Chrome, and do want to buy a dvd-a player eventually, and was leaning towards Denon. But if I'm not going to be able to playback my own creations...that will be a problem.

 

[neil wilkes]

What kind of issues? I author discs with Chrome, and do want to buy a dvd-a player eventually, and was leaning towards Denon. But if I'm not going to be able to playback my own creations...that will be a problem.

It was only the 1910, and not the 2910 or the 3910.
Basically, it just did not show the highlights properly on custom menus.
Very unreliable.
It also has a nasty habit of MPEG-2 compressing all menu screens to the point that they look dreadful - check out the ringo 5.1 album for a shining example of this. It can be done right, but you must start with seriously high quality images.
With Chrome, you also have issues if you are using, say a long MLP stream with track points or a gapless PCM stream and slides.
You can use slides, but forget what chrome call "Active Menus" (IE with navigational buttons as I do with the PT discs etc) as it will always default to the first track image only.
Another nasty chrome problem is the linking to Video_TS - you cannot pick the stream, so if you're linking to a video that has Stereo & 5.1, you cannot set the Audio option by picking a stream. Not possible.
So Chrome is extremely basic IMHO.
It can be made to function after a fashion - we did "Stupid Dream" on Chrome - but it was an awful experience.

What build number are you running? For the money it costs, you would be better off hunting down a 2nd user copy of Sonic's DVD-Audio Creator - the cost would be about the same, and you would get a full featured application that is the standard tool.

 

[elshagon]

Those requesting recommendation of players consider the Oppo 980h. It's $169 US and will play PAL discs and is region free once you enter in a code. It plays sacd and dvd-a over both analog and HDMI. The other benefit of this player is that it ignores the watermark, so you can extract the mlp's off your dvd-a discs and re-author your own discs.