they're not the same.. no fade up in Social Disease on the 5.1 on the BD-A! 
:ugham:
:ugham:
Elton John "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" HFPA Blu-Ray Release
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Fair enough, the fade-up on Social Disease is missing, but I think both the SACD and HFPA BDA are sourced from Greg Penny's master exports without any 'real' mastering having been done.
If there's anyone with any inside info that can correct me/prove me wrong I'd appreciate it, but the way it looks to me is that the 'mastering' done to Greg Penny's mixes is akin to what Neil does to Steven Wilson's mixes. That is, rather than a lot of after-the-fact EQ/compression/etc., the mastering is more about making sure the audio is compliant with the technical specs of the delivery format. Obviously the mastering engineer forgot or didn't realize there was supposed to be a fade-up on Social Disease, but I think what you hear on the BD-A (and SACD) is effectively what was exported from Greg Penny's workstation in 2003 or whatever, perhaps with a bit of a volume boost.
If there's anyone with any inside info that can correct me/prove me wrong I'd appreciate it, but the way it looks to me is that the 'mastering' done to Greg Penny's mixes is akin to what Neil does to Steven Wilson's mixes. That is, rather than a lot of after-the-fact EQ/compression/etc., the mastering is more about making sure the audio is compliant with the technical specs of the delivery format. Obviously the mastering engineer forgot or didn't realize there was supposed to be a fade-up on Social Disease, but I think what you hear on the BD-A (and SACD) is effectively what was exported from Greg Penny's workstation in 2003 or whatever, perhaps with a bit of a volume boost.
I'll add this to the discussion about the use of compression on the Elton 5.1's:
Greg Penny is a producer par excellence, with a résumé to die for. Just listen to any of his stereo stuff and you can tell he really knows what he's doing - case in point, the Elton album he produced, Made In England in '95, is to my mind far and away the best EJ album of the period 85-2001 with the most cohesive feel and sound of just about anything post Elton's 70's heyday.
Greg was at the Cheateau during the recording of Yellow Brick Road in '73. he knows Elton very well and knows how to bring the best out in Elton's music. He loved Gus Dudgeon and had the greatest respect for his work.. interviews Greg has given about what he did in the creation of those mixes have been fairly in-depth, it's clear he really considered every angle while doing them and put real thought, care, effort and (just as important as any contribution he made in the creation of the 5.1 EJ mixes imho) real artistry and creativity into them while still mindful of the original mixes so many people know inside and out. Yes they're revisionist remixes, yes there are differences and emphasis placed differently compared to Gus' stereo but to long-time fans who know this music backwards I fail to see how they could incite any major complaint. As Elton himself said, Greg's mixes are "like looking in the mirror". How's that for a ringing endorsement from the artist!
There's one other added special ingredient in the Elton 5.1's and that is Gus Skinas, a legendary figure in SACD and DSD circles, who was on the team from word go. To question what that guy can do is almost a step too far in my eyes.
Add to that, that the 5.1 mixes of Elton albums are consistently very highly rated by many people here and elsewhere, they have been raved about the last 10 years to this very day and so it becomes even harder for me to just sit back and let a lone negative voice go on and on and on about the compression used on them, when that person doesn't seem to realise the intent behind the compression used and that it is not and should not be seen as an example of the loudness wars gone mad.
This is not meant as a dig to keenly in any way but with a team like that behind these mixes it really is bordering on insult for any listener at home playing amateur engineer while tinkering with waveforms to chip in in a forum like this with endless complaints about them. In response to keenly when he was complaining about this last time I asked and I'll repeat it now "are you saying the 100+ members of QQ who have rated the Yellow Brick Road 5.1 mix an 8,9 or 10 are all duff/deaf/daft?!?
Ok.. Rant over. No offence intended, I just had to get all that off my chest
Greg Penny is a producer par excellence, with a résumé to die for. Just listen to any of his stereo stuff and you can tell he really knows what he's doing - case in point, the Elton album he produced, Made In England in '95, is to my mind far and away the best EJ album of the period 85-2001 with the most cohesive feel and sound of just about anything post Elton's 70's heyday.
Greg was at the Cheateau during the recording of Yellow Brick Road in '73. he knows Elton very well and knows how to bring the best out in Elton's music. He loved Gus Dudgeon and had the greatest respect for his work.. interviews Greg has given about what he did in the creation of those mixes have been fairly in-depth, it's clear he really considered every angle while doing them and put real thought, care, effort and (just as important as any contribution he made in the creation of the 5.1 EJ mixes imho) real artistry and creativity into them while still mindful of the original mixes so many people know inside and out. Yes they're revisionist remixes, yes there are differences and emphasis placed differently compared to Gus' stereo but to long-time fans who know this music backwards I fail to see how they could incite any major complaint. As Elton himself said, Greg's mixes are "like looking in the mirror". How's that for a ringing endorsement from the artist!
There's one other added special ingredient in the Elton 5.1's and that is Gus Skinas, a legendary figure in SACD and DSD circles, who was on the team from word go. To question what that guy can do is almost a step too far in my eyes.
Add to that, that the 5.1 mixes of Elton albums are consistently very highly rated by many people here and elsewhere, they have been raved about the last 10 years to this very day and so it becomes even harder for me to just sit back and let a lone negative voice go on and on and on about the compression used on them, when that person doesn't seem to realise the intent behind the compression used and that it is not and should not be seen as an example of the loudness wars gone mad.
This is not meant as a dig to keenly in any way but with a team like that behind these mixes it really is bordering on insult for any listener at home playing amateur engineer while tinkering with waveforms to chip in in a forum like this with endless complaints about them. In response to keenly when he was complaining about this last time I asked and I'll repeat it now "are you saying the 100+ members of QQ who have rated the Yellow Brick Road 5.1 mix an 8,9 or 10 are all duff/deaf/daft?!?
Ok.. Rant over. No offence intended, I just had to get all that off my chest
Thanks for the insight Dave
I can see you've analysed it all in your usual methodical & meticulous way and if that's your conclusion at the end of the day as to what's going on with this BDA, I'll go along with it. How's Ma?
Neb-Maat-Re
400 Club - QQ All-Star
All I can say is "Where is my previously unreleased Gus Dudgeon quad mix?"
(I need it to put in my flying car.)
(I need it to put in my flying car.)
LizardKing
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
It's (a little bit) funny, a Quad mix of a few tracks off the Madman album is floating about online, I've never heard them but they're a downmix to 2-ch apparently, so it would be the mixes rather than the surround you'd hear.. but afaik Gus didn't get his Quad studio setup til after Quad's demise so I'm a bit doubtful.. then there are old rumours he mixed everything upto Blue Moves in Quad.. it's hard to know who or what to believe.. but I'll say this, after decades of hardcore fandom, even when the Surround SACDs were out and EJ in Quad would have been on at least some fans' radars, I have never met anyone in Elton fandom or connected to him that has ever actually had first hand evidence that Gus did indeed mix the 70's stuff in Quad.
There is only one set of Gus Dudgeon remixes officially available and that is on "The Superior Sound Of (1970-1975)" compilation, released on CD in around 84/85.. some of these are markedly different from the mixes that were hits (Daniel and Rocket Man have different vocal takes). The album is billed as "Remixed from the multi-tracks into a new dimension of sound".. Now whether or not these were part of the Fruits of Gus' Quad mixing labours I can't tell you but it does prove for certain that he had remixed multi's of at least parts of the catalogue post the Quad era.
More info on The Superior Sound of here:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-superior-sound-of-elton-john.137830/
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-superior-sound-of-elton-john.137830/
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Neb-Maat-Re
400 Club - QQ All-Star
The two references I've seen are of a 2 CD set, one has the purported quad mix of the full album, the other the US radio promo mono mix. Can't locate an actual copy anywhere. It would be good to find and test to see if they are a fold-down or matrix encoded. Most non-quaddies don't know the difference, so I'd tend not to trust a statement they were fold-downs.
Thanks for the heads up about the Superior Sound CD - it looks worthwhile checking out.
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I remember someone here posted about the Quad Madman boot in the past, must be you
it wouldn't take more than a run thru of Rotten Peaches and see if it is Greg's extended mix to see if its the 5.1 billed mistakenly/out of ignorance as Quad and as you say easy for us lot to suss whether it's encoded quad or just a downmix from Quad. I am skeptical I have to admit.. but I'll go a-huntin, I haven't looked in earnest for a copy so I'll have a snoop and post back if I find it or anything related to it.
you're welcome on the Superior Sound mixes. they're noting revelatory but to anyone who knows the originals inside out you'll spot the differences (patched in repeat of 1st chorus vocal take as 2nd chorus on Daniel.. burning out his fuse up here alone bit in Rocket Man similarly a different lead vox take from the mix we all know which was another copy & re-use edit dropped in on the mix as finally released.. acoustic guitar in DLTSun.. drums and bass differently mixed on every track.. fade up to the intro on Croc Rock rather than straight in as the original and different synth sounds iirc.. lots of changes there but some subtle.. the list goes on..).
Superior Sound was one of the first CD's I bought. There weren't many titles available then. IMHO, it's essential if you are at all serious about Elton. All that being said, I agree with Gus Dudgeon and Steve Hoffman. When it was new, I called it "The Inferior Sound," just as Steve had. Perhaps the defective gear and auditioning it in mono are the reasons. My biggest complaint with Superior Sound is that the vocals are often too low in the mix.
If you want a good retrospective, the many Greatest Hits compilations are a better bet. I especially love the To Be Continued... box. Still, Superior Sound is a great way to hear these classics with a different spin.
If you want a good retrospective, the many Greatest Hits compilations are a better bet. I especially love the To Be Continued... box. Still, Superior Sound is a great way to hear these classics with a different spin.
It's been decades so I could be wrong, but I remember it being the only Elton John CD you could buy in the early days of the format.
It was. The original "Love Songs" (not to be confused with the later Love Songs collections) came a few weeks afterward. Then, DJM began issuing the actual albums on CD, which I bought as imports. MCA began releasing albums soon thereafter. I listened this Love Songs frequently until the albums were released on CD.
blue.monk
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Yes, it certainly sounds that way to me. I can hear no differences in the mix, EQ or amount of compression for the handful of sections I've compared.
i have this i had forgotten about it, remeber it haveing a steam train on the actual disc !!!
Rocket records indeeed
The first press Phonogram Rocket CDs with the silk screen orange and purple printed train logo and graphics are more sought after than the later CDs with silver faces and simple black logotype. I have the orange/purple train printed Rockets for most of the '76 > onwards Elton albums but some albums (like Jump Up!) are much harder to get now with the coloured train printed disc and pricier than the silver faced discs.. they all sound the same so it's no biggy but just the collecting thing gone mad really I guess. The only album that I know of that never saw a UK/WG Phonogram release was the Thom Bell Sessions EP, which only came out on MCA in the U.S.A. afaik.
I have most of those Rocket issues. In general, I prefer the original Polygram "painted on" labels, rather than the little black blobs of ink. The label side is nearer to the pits themselves than the silver "playing" side, which has a heavy, clear aspic above them. I feel that the "painted on" discs offer a bit more permanency. It provides an extra buffer from skin oils and other materials adulterating the actual pits.
I prefer the purple ones cos they're prettier.. but then pretty things have got me in trouble before so maybe I'd have been better off with the silver and black blobby ones..
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