Listening to in Dolby Atmos Streaming, via Tidal/Apple/Amazon

[salsdali]

I don't know of a specific example, but it seems every few weeks someone posts that they don't believe the Atmos mixes are coming from multitracks. From everything we have ever heard, the Atmos mixes on Apple/Tidal are mixed from multi-tracks and Apple specifically states: "Dolby Atmos audio files generated automatically and/or algorithmically from a stereo master are not allowed."

I'm guessing that in some cases people are listening to the Atmos mixes on 5.1 systems, which would explain the complaints about bleed-through across channels. That isn't to say that some of the issues with Atmos mixes involve specific decisions by the engineers. For example, Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain and Kind of Blue had 3 track mono masters, so to generate the Atmos mix they played them back in the studio and re-recorded it to recreate the atmospherics of the studio when it was originally recorded.

apple only prohibits upmixes from stereo, they mention nothing about upmixes from existing 5.1

this is the issue, when you upmix from 5.1 where are you going to get discrete elemnts to put in the heights, they have to come from the 5.1 elements that have already been mixed so they are always going to sound less discrete than from the masters

 

[harync]

apple only prohibits upmixes from stereo, they mention nothing about upmixes from existing 5.1

this is the issue, when you upmix from 5.1 where are you going to get discrete elemnts to put in the heights, they have to come from the 5.1 elements that have already been mixed so they are always going to sound less discrete than from the masters

I guess that that's the key question. Is there any evidence that an Atmos mix was generated automatically or algorithmically from the 5.1 mix?

Beyond that, I think that the nature of Atmos as an object-based format does not always align with the "discreteness" that one expects from 5.1. If a guitar strum is supposed to be overhead, it's going to be localized differently in 5.1.2 vs 5.1.4 vs 7.1.6, not to mention up-firing vs. ceiling-mounted, etc.

 

[salsdali]

I guess that that's the key question. Is there any evidence that an Atmos mix was generated automatically or algorithmically from the 5.1 mix?

Beyond that, I think that the nature of Atmos as an object-based format does not always align with the "discreteness" that one expects from 5.1. If a guitar strum is supposed to be overhead, it's going to be localized differently in 5.1.2 vs 5.1.4 vs 7.1.6, not to mention up-firing vs. ceiling-mounted, etc.

if the guitar strum comes from the master multi tracks as a discrete element it is going to sound fuller and more discrete no matter the speaker configuration than if that same guitar strum is algorithmically pulled out of a 5.1 mix

it's the same concept of "garbage in, garbage out"

 

[harync]

if the guitar strum comes from the master multi tracks as a discrete element it is going to sound fuller and more discrete no matter the speaker configuration than if that same guitar strum is algorithmically pulled out of a 5.1 mix

it's the same concept of "garbage in, garbage out"

I wonder if the difference in philosophical approach to Atmos (object localization) compared to 5.1 (channel localization) in the context of historical considerations (channel discreteness) is leading to some of these observations, and not the so far unproven assertion that there are automated/algorithmically created Atmos mixes from 5.1

Elaborating on my previous example, even if a guitar strum comes from multitracks as a discrete element a listener at home might not be able to hear it as such in Atmos depending on the choices of the engineer. Let's say the guitar strum is localized to the upper rear left. This will be executed differently on different Atmos systems and it's possible that guitar strum won't only be coming from one speaker or that it is not the only sound coming out of a speaker depending on how it is rendered. This is in contrast to a 5.1 mix that has the same mapping from system to system.

 

[himey]

I don't know of a specific example, but it seems every few weeks someone posts that they don't believe the Atmos mixes are coming from multitracks. From everything we have ever heard, the Atmos mixes on Apple/Tidal are mixed from multi-tracks and Apple specifically states: "Dolby Atmos audio files generated automatically and/or algorithmically from a stereo master are not allowed."

I'm guessing that in some cases people are listening to the Atmos mixes on 5.1 systems, which would explain the complaints about bleed-through across channels. That isn't to say that some of the issues with Atmos mixes involve specific decisions by the engineers. For example, Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain and Kind of Blue had 3 track mono masters, so to generate the Atmos mix they played them back in the studio and re-recorded it to recreate the atmospherics of the studio when it was originally recorded.

I guess I missed the posts about "bleed-through across channels". This is the first time I heard about that, and I have never experienced it. I have seen the "generated automatically" posts, but I wouldn't say they are exclusive to the folks listening to Atmos mixes without height/top speakers.

If an Atmos mix, played on a 5.1 setup, has weak rear channel output, I will speculate that the mix isn't very discreet. Whether it is poor mix, in this context, on a system with full 3D capabilities, I will say would be subjective, but it isn't going to magically be discreet.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

Al Green - Let's Stay Together
For Valentine's Day.
Number One on the charts 50 years ago today.

Let's Stay Together - Single by Al Green

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I don't know of a specific example, but it seems every few weeks someone posts that they don't believe the Atmos mixes are coming from multitracks. From everything we have ever heard, the Atmos mixes on Apple/Tidal are mixed from multi-tracks and Apple specifically states: "Dolby Atmos audio files generated automatically and/or algorithmically from a stereo master are not allowed."

Like I pointed out previously, the key words there are "from a stereo master" The statement does not disallow automatic/algorithmic Atmos upmixes from a MCH master, just a stereo one.

 

[marcb]

I don't know of a specific example, but it seems every few weeks someone posts that they don't believe the Atmos mixes are coming from multitracks. From everything we have ever heard, the Atmos mixes on Apple/Tidal are mixed from multi-tracks and Apple specifically states: "Dolby Atmos audio files generated automatically and/or algorithmically from a stereo master are not allowed."

I'm guessing that in some cases people are listening to the Atmos mixes on 5.1 systems, which would explain the complaints about bleed-through across channels. That isn't to say that some of the issues with Atmos mixes involve specific decisions by the engineers. For example, Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain and Kind of Blue had 3 track mono masters, so to generate the Atmos mix they played them back in the studio and re-recorded it to recreate the atmospherics of the studio when it was originally recorded.

Do you think Apple is actually checking every Atmos track to ensure it isn’t an auto upmix? And what exactly is a Dolby Atmos flle generated “automatically” from a stereo master? And would they be able to tell if it was “automatically” generated vs a human twiddling some knobs and faders?

And what if the multitracks for 1 or 2 songs are missing for, say, oh, an album like Who’s Next? Would Apple not allow an upmix...automatic or otherwise...so the entire album is “presented” in Atmos rather than a hodgepodge of formats?

Maybe I’m completely wrong on this, but even putting the paint-by-numbers sound of some Atmos mixes aside, I call BS on the notion that Apple is enforcing this policy in any meaningful way.

 

[harync]

Do you think Apple is actually checking every Atmos track to ensure it isn’t an auto upmix? And what exactly is a Dolby Atmos flle generated “automatically” from a stereo master? And would they be able to tell if it was “automatically” generated vs a human twiddling some knobs and faders?

And what if the multitracks for 1 or 2 songs are missing for, say, oh, an album like Who’s Next? Would Apple not allow an upmix...automatic or otherwise...so the entire album is “presented” in Atmos rather than a hodgepodge of formats?

Maybe I’m completely wrong on this, but even putting the paint-by-numbers sound of some Atmos mixes aside, I call BS on the notion that Apple is enforcing this policy in any meaningful way.

I think an Atmos file generated automatically would basically apply an AVR's Dolby upmix algorithm to a stereo track. If Apple has the algorithm I'm sure they could detect the difference between that vs. a human twiddling the knobs and faders, but to your point, do they bother? I don't know.

People are parsing Apple's statement to be a tacit admission they are allowing automated upmixes from 5.1, but I think that's reading too much into it. If someone asked Apple to clarify, maybe they would just say automated upmixes to Atmos are not allowed? Right now we're just guessing either way.

We already know the answer about albums where all the tracks are not in Atmos. They don't label it as such.

I understand the skepticism due to the quality of some of the mixes out there. While we would like to think it's laziness on the part of the record companies and they are auto-upmixing tracks/albums, unfortunately I think there are just some engineers who are still not very good at mixing Atmos.

 

[himey]

I think an Atmos file generated automatically would basically apply an AVR's Dolby upmix algorithm to a stereo track. If Apple has the algorithm I'm sure they could detect the difference between that vs. a human twiddling the knobs and faders, but to your point, do they bother? I don't know.

People are parsing Apple's statement to be a tacit admission they are allowing automated upmixes from 5.1, but I think that's reading too much into it. If someone asked Apple to clarify, maybe they would just say automated upmixes to Atmos are not allowed? Right now we're just guessing either way.

We already know the answer about albums where all the tracks are not in Atmos. They don't label it as such.

I understand the skepticism due to the quality of some of the mixes out there. While we would like to think it's laziness on the part of the record companies and they are auto-upmixing tracks/albums, unfortunately I think there are just some engineers who are still not very good at mixing Atmos.

I like your optimism!
Most Atmos TV Shows are certainly not manually mixed. I talked to an engineer who processes them. Hopefully moving forward things change and more care is allotted for everything Atmos.

 

[salsdali]

Most Atmos TV Shows are certainly not manually mixed.

that's my point, most movies are manually mixed because the ROI on movies can be huge so they can afford to pay a human man hours to make it sound good.

the ROI on tv shows is much less so they have to find a way to cut corners and automate the process because it's cheaper.

Now when we come to songs on streaming services where the rights owner gets $0.003 cents per play do you really think those rights owners, studios and/ or artist is going to spend big bucks with a human mix for so little payoff?

music streaming is the least ROI of the three I mentioned so they are going to cut corners the most, irregardless of what apple says they should do.

 

[stormchaser]

We've now reached the point with Atmos releases on Tidal (my way to access them) that I can't keep up given how many there are. Do we start picking a few standouts to review here or will this site's reviews stay about physical media?

 

[marcb]

I think an Atmos file generated automatically would basically apply an AVR's Dolby upmix algorithm to a stereo track. If Apple has the algorithm I'm sure they could detect the difference between that vs. a human twiddling the knobs and faders, but to your point, do they bother? I don't know.

People are parsing Apple's statement to be a tacit admission they are allowing automated upmixes from 5.1, but I think that's reading too much into it. If someone asked Apple to clarify, maybe they would just say automated upmixes to Atmos are not allowed? Right now we're just guessing either way.

We already know the answer about albums where all the tracks are not in Atmos. They don't label it as such.

I understand the skepticism due to the quality of some of the mixes out there. While we would like to think it's laziness on the part of the record companies and they are auto-upmixing tracks/albums, unfortunately I think there are just some engineers who are still not very good at mixing Atmos.

I’m not saying it’s a tacit admission in any way. I’m saying it’s ultimately a cross your fingers and hope that people/labels refrain from a largely undetectable - and thus unenforceable - violation. And some - perhaps many - aren’t refraining if what I think I’m hearing is correct.

As I wrote earlier, I think there is either 1) some automated atmos creation going on and/or 2) they’re being done quickly on-the-cheap and/or 3) they’re just creating some pretty unartistic mixes through incompetence (which you note). I’m personally inclined to think it’s more #1 and #2 than #3, but I don’t discount #3 either.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

We've now reached the point with Atmos releases on Tidal (my way to access them) that I can't keep up given how many there are. Do we start picking a few standouts to review here or will this site's reviews stay about physical media?

When you say reviews, are you referring to the polls?
Given the turmoil over the "purity" and "sacredness" and moderator overhead of poll threads, maybe we don't want to go down that road right now.

As for "reviews", aren't they simply comments by members in any random thread, whether brief or rambling?
I'd say you could start a new thread, or post them in this one.
Some folks start a separate thread for any individual title they are excited about.

 

[Mcallister]

Al Green - Let's Stay Together
For Valentine's Day.
Number One on the charts 50 years ago today.

Let's Stay Together - Single by Al Green


View attachment 76002

Sounds wonderful, I think I’ve listened to it 20 times since last week

 

[himey]

We've now reached the point with Atmos releases on Tidal (my way to access them) that I can't keep up given how many there are. Do we start picking a few standouts to review here or will this site's reviews stay about physical media?

Good question because it would be nearly impossible to have a poll thread for every release.
Maybe periodically we have a thread to vote on the ones that deserve its own poll?

 

[harync]

This is a good sign for continued Dolby Atmos / Audio releases:
https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/16/apple-music-spatial-audio-lossless-interview/I know this will cause an eyeroll for some, but it's better than not caring:

"For Apple's part, the company is emphasizing the importance of quality mixing here — compared to the early days of Dolby Atmos Music, when some mixes didn't live up to the quality of the original recordings. "We listen to every song that comes in Spatial Audio to us and we try to engage with people who make the cut during the process," Schusser says."

 

[AYanguas]

This is a good sign for continued Dolby Atmos / Audio releases:
https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/16/apple-music-spatial-audio-lossless-interview/I know this will cause an eyeroll for some, but it's better than not caring:

Just reading first comments from that link make me fear how some people could perceive the "Spatial Audio":

- "Love lossless, but spatial audio just sounds weird. They sound like hacked fan-made mixes, have this turned off."

- "At least you can turn it off and hear the music as it was intended. "

- "Because they don’t even know it’s on, it’s usless it ruins music and makes it sound like a demo track; lossless is the real quality, music is made for left and right stereo not virtual sound "

 

[harync]

Just reading first comments from that link make me fear how some people could perceive the "Spatial Audio":

- "Love lossless, but spatial audio just sounds weird. They sound like hacked fan-made mixes, have this turned off."

- "At least you can turn it off and hear the music as it was intended. "

- "Because they don’t even know it’s on, it’s usless it ruins music and makes it sound like a demo track; lossless is the real quality, music is made for left and right stereo not virtual sound "

Have to admit I did not look at the comments. I think most of those complaints are from people who are listening with headphones (which I haven't tried) and not dedicated home theater. They could also be stereo purists like that third comment.

 

[harync]

Have to admit I did not look at the comments. I think most of those complaints are from people who are listening with headphones (which I haven't tried) and not dedicated home theater. They could also be stereo purists like that third comment.

So this was linked in the comments:
https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pr...atmos-mix-will-sound-different-on-apple-music
It turns out Apple is really messing with the Atmos audio if you listen over headphones. No wonder there are complaints. Good thing nobody here would do such a thing!