PC for Multichannel Music Playback - What's your Setup?

[jimfisheye]

I settled on VOX.app for now.

I was using Songbird forever but it doesn't support above 5.1 very well. And it's an older 32 bit app, so High Sierra is the end of the line OS for using it.

VOX handles 12 channel 7.1.4 mixes just fine.
Atmos on the computer is more about working around the gatekeepers and lockouts.

Tutorial for MacOS:
When you set the system audio in Audio MIDI Setup to one of the Atmos formats (eg. 7.1.4), the Atmos channels (eg. ch 9-12 in 7.1.4) are muted/disabled from playback! I’m not sure if this is unlocked for other media player apps with a paid subscription to their Music streaming service. The channels are muted even when using a standard music player like VOX.app with your own files.

There’s an easy workaround!
When you select a device for system audio… DO NOT click on ‘configure speakers’ and select a speaker array format! Just don’t ever do it. (You will be scolded by various apps like VLC player that you haven’t selected an output format. Don’t do it! Just close that alert. It doesn’t stop playback.) Now all 12 channels (for 7.1.4 format) or 16 channels (for 9.1.6) just pass through and play!

There’s more good news. Not only that but you can play 12 or 16 channel 7.1.4 or 9.1.6 media in older MacOS like High Sierra (10.13) with the same method! The older OS doesn’t have the options to even select the Atmos speaker arrays, of course. Skipping the speaker config allows full playback just like in Monterey or Ventura. You can simply delete the device and start over if you have selected a speaker option previously. (Probably a preference file can be deleted to erase that selection too.)

Cons to this:
The formats between 2.0 and 5.1 are 'depreciated'. VOX wasn't handling them correctly even with the OS speaker manager in use. (ie. When you select a speaker array format.) Songbird did!

I can throw 12 channel files at it and it just works though and I can add blank channels to older 4.0, etc files to make them 5.1 format. Most releases nowadays avoid the in-between formats anyway.

 

[mandrix]

I've been using PowerDVD Ultra for some time to bitstream any Atmos files, BD's/MP4/M4A/MKV but of course it's a paid solution.
Foobar v2 now for DVDA/SACD .iso playback. Or network streaming on the Oppo 103.
VLC bitstreaming ocassionally for Atmos/other files.
HDMI all around except I pre-out two speakers from the AVR to another amp.

I've sort of lost interest in the other freebie players, don't really need them. But I'm glad there are options out there.

For people that use "patched" Atmos AVR systems that currently are tied to the DRP on Windows, I would like to see either Dolby up their game or someone else provide a better solution that plays all the formats.

 

[jimfisheye]

After experiencing Dolby's behavior and their recent decision to not even sell their reference player to anyone they don't already work with, I'd like to see 7.1.4 mixes ignore their encoded format altogether! Tying music listening to new hardware purchases is just greedy bs. Kind of casts a shadow on this.

Initially I wanted to jump on board. I thought the binaural downmixing ability and speaker array scaling ability was crafty and might even lead to a legitimate "single inventory" solution for music releases. Now I don't want anything to do with them and I wouldn't feel right releasing anything stained with their encoding.

 

[sjcorne]

I'd like to see 7.1.4 mixes ignore their encoded format altogether!

Without the decoder/renderer existing somewhere in the signal chain (be it hardware or software), how are the object-based mixes supposed to map to people's setups? The format is Atmos, not discrete 7.1.4...

 

[himey]

After experiencing Dolby's behavior and their recent decision to not even sell their reference player to anyone they don't already work with, I'd like to see 7.1.4 mixes ignore their encoded format altogether! Tying music listening to new hardware purchases is just greedy bs. Kind of casts a shadow on this.

Initially I wanted to jump on board. I thought the binaural downmixing ability and speaker array scaling ability was crafty and might even lead to a legitimate "single inventory" solution for music releases. Now I don't want anything to do with them and I wouldn't feel right releasing anything stained with their encoding.

From what I have seen you are all alone on this one. Atmos is the real deal. Those who use a PC who also does Atmos are such a small minority. A release with only 7.1.4, makes absolutely zero sense.

 

[mandrix]

After experiencing Dolby's behavior and their recent decision to not even sell their reference player to anyone they don't already work with, I'd like to see 7.1.4 mixes ignore their encoded format altogether! Tying music listening to new hardware purchases is just greedy bs. Kind of casts a shadow on this.

Initially I wanted to jump on board. I thought the binaural downmixing ability and speaker array scaling ability was crafty and might even lead to a legitimate "single inventory" solution for music releases. Now I don't want anything to do with them and I wouldn't feel right releasing anything stained with their encoding.

You mean like when DTS, DTS-MAS, MLP, SACD, etc. came along? All requiring hardware changes, as you well know.
Do I feel your pain in the pocketbook? Absolutely!
Am I Dolby's biggest pusher? Absolutely not. They could come out with a decoder for the masses, and make the app(s) available for a nominal price.
I think they would make more money, maybe, instead of tying the bulk of their licensing up for manufacturers, to make more feasible solutions available to the general public.
Based on past practices, I don't see this happening. However I think they are shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak.

 

[Grendel13G]

Annoyingly, I think things keep changing and my list from March is probably already out of date. I'm still hopeful foobar2000 will do the bitstreaming one day. For now I've settled using Kodi.

Same on both counts. I think I'm just going to use Kodi for playing Atmos, and foobar2000 for everything else. Most of the Atmos-capable options are either overly simple with barebones playlist and library management (e.g. MPC-BE) or overly cumbersome with an interface that IMO gets in the way of straightforward desktop playback (e.g. Kodi).

 

[mandrix]

The only interface I care about is the one presented by the music. Is why I always rip discs to .iso format when possible.
rip/decrypt/play. VLC is free and does a respectable job with BD playback, Atmos or otherwise, bitstreaming to the AVR.

I don't think Foobar will ever bitstream unless Peter changes his mind, just doesn't seem to interest him. Shame, really. It's such a capable player otherwise.

 

[jimfisheye]

You mean like when DTS, DTS-MAS, MLP, SACD, etc. came along? All requiring hardware changes, as you well know.
Do I feel your pain in the pocketbook? Absolutely!
Am I Dolby's biggest pusher? Absolutely not. They could come out with a decoder for the masses, and make the app(s) available for a nominal price.
I think they would make more money, maybe, instead of tying the bulk of their licensing up for manufacturers, to make more feasible solutions available to the general public.
Based on past practices, I don't see this happening. However I think they are shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak.

Literally all those formats have software decoding and many of them are stock in every software media player. I expect AC-4 to end up the same eventually.

Honestly, I'm sympathetic to Dolby et all for trying to find a way to profit from their work and ingenuity. Selling software or media files in this day and age is difficult for sure. I know the strong armed planned obsolescence approach with hiding the decoder in hardware and keeping it unavailable otherwise will only have an initial brief period. It's kind of transparent to any brand new music listening customer of course. I was still on board to support that.

What did it for me was their current refusal to even sell their encoder subscription (which includes the reference player and is the only way to get the reference player software at present). They started only selling it to business they already work with. You might have guessed at this point that that ain't the likes of me! The forum tutorials must have tipped them off or something. It seems they want a private club free of independent music producers. That finally pushed me away.

I'll likely make releases in both lossless wavpack and then their proprietary format. There are AV receivers being sold that literally can only take 12 channel input from the proprietary Dolby files. Buyer beware and all but people are going to get stuck with this.

I still think the crafty built in speaker management is a fine idea. But ultimately I'm only interested in Atmos for delivering 12 ch 7.1.4 program. Wavpack delivers 12 ch 7.1.4 program with no decoder needed!

Funny that they DO sell the dolby renderer to anyone with $300! Funny that the defaults in this software come up for monitoring in binaural stereo too. If you wanted any more evidence that they're pushing people to just put stereo or some faked surround that they aren't even listening to with real speakers into the format.

At the end of the day, we all won this one! 7.1.4 mix format is here to stay no matter what else happens. That's a big win and it was kind of treated as an aside by Dolby. They wanted listening tied to hardware purchases and a private club for who can even produce. That part is ugly.

 

[jimfisheye]

I was resorting to Kodi for video+audio program with the in-between surround formats. (In-between 2.0 & 5.1 that is. The ones most media players are not programmed for and thus screw up.) Otherwise I liked VLC player better.

So, points to Kodi for getting a lot of things right! Their garish GUI just turned me off. Along with the incessant push to force use their redundant file browser. I understand they came from a gaming platform that didn't have a stock file browser like the Finder (Mac) or Explorer (Windows). Still...
I haven't tried Kodi yet with 7.1.4 files.

I almost passed on VOX initially because of the same depreciation of support for the in-between formats (4.0, 4.1, 5.0). Now looking back and with the lockouts and muting the atmos channels and all the funny business going on, VOX is looking pretty good! It just plays 12 ch 7.1.4 files and just works. It's a 64 bit app that runs in the newest OS builds. (On Mac anyway.)

I still keep seeing ads for J-River. What's the selling point on that one again? In-between formats support? Better Atmos support? (ie. maybe gives 'permission' to the OS to not mute the Atmos channels with no workarounds required?)

 

[himey]

I still keep seeing ads for J-River.

There is a learning curve because of the features that no other players offer, which sets it apart, but it is as good as any of the others. Absolutely no player is perfect for everything. I use a combination of 4 to 5 different ones regularly. Kodi/J-River/ Foobar are my top 3, and I wouldn't want to go without any of them.

 

[jimfisheye]

I'd love a 'one media player to rule them all'!
No one else has landed on that either, eh?

Just fired up Kodi. It doesn't see wavpack files at all. It doesn't even see straight uncompressed .wav files either! I forgot about that!

VLC is a frame based video player so it makes little pause gaps with gapless audio files meant to segue.

Kodi is also video-centric and doesn't even play straight wav files. And it's GUI is on meth or something!

Songbird is an older 32 bit app with no new development. It was supposed to be like iTunes but without all the bugs. And it was! No support for files above 5.1 though and no support with newer OS installs.

VOX is playing 7.1.4 files in wavpack right out of the box. No love for 4.0, 4.1, or 5.0 formats though.

Going full manual using a DAW app kind of feels like operating a turntable with the hands on tech feel. I often do this with new albums anyway just to look at the waveforms. (Since so many are short on artwork nowadays. And even though a pdf file could be an entire book!)

Right. So what does J-River or any of the other paid ones offer?

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

I wonder if anybody here is brave enough to try Roon...

 

[himey]

J-River

There is a trial.
What I like about it are Zones. You can have multiple sound devices, and set different playing now lists, to different Zones. For example, your stereo tracks can playback to your stereo DAC, your quad/5.1 files to your Oppo, and your Atmos files to your Atmos processor.

 

[himey]

Roon...

It isn't bad but far from perfect.

 

[jarrod2750]

I wonder if anybody here is brave enough to try Roon...

I have Roon and are genuinely happy with it. It was buggy at first for me but it was mostly because of network issues on my end.

 

[jimfisheye]

Without the decoder/renderer existing somewhere in the signal chain (be it hardware or software), how are the object-based mixes supposed to map to people's setups? The format is Atmos, not discrete 7.1.4...

Fair question!

With the usual speaker management tools. Literally identical to what Atmos is doing on the fly. Of course I'll argue that 1:1 lossless reproduction to the same speaker array as the mix was done on is always 1st priority. Downmixing ability to a compromised smaller system is a 2nd consideration. It's already a compromise. And you can choose to listen to a stereo or 5.1 mix as applies if you don't like how the downmix worked out. Weather it's your AV receiver settings handling a downmix, your computer OS handling the downmix, or an Atmos rendering media player doing the downmix. Atmos isn't magic, special, or a sound. It's a media container with built-in speaker management ability. This is a crafty system!

The format is the original mix format. In the case of a 7.1.4 mix, we want the Atmos rendering media player to reproduce it to a 7.1.4 output 1:1. Or we will call it broken and lossy! When we have a compromised speaker array and our only choice to hear the music at all is to downmix it, well we're already taking what we can get and no 1:1 is possible. This is automatically a secondary consideration.

The delivery container is Atmos. The format is a discrete 7.1.4 mix.
Another possible delivery container would be straight wavpack files.
If you don't have the speaker array for the full mix, you can downmix with your AVR settings or your OS settings and you can make the exact same downmix the Atmos rendering media player makes on the fly. Or you can choose to downmix differently! (Not an Atmos media player option.)

Atmos supports any lesser channel format you choose to throw at it too. And you get the same ability to tie a listener to having to buy a new AV receiver to decode it. It looks like this is their 1st priority.

 

[sjcorne]

The delivery container is Atmos. The format is a discrete 7.1.4 mix.

I would argue the reverse - the 'mix' in its raw form (ADM BWF) is just a series of beds and objects floating in space, whereas the 'delivery container' is the speaker-based format it's being mapped to by the renderer (9.1.6 array or lesser).

Calling it a 'discrete 7.1.4 mix' to me kind of undersells the concept, as the use of objects allows the mix to expand beyond even the number of speakers used in the studio it was created in. For instance - Steven Wilson is working on a 7.1.4 setup, but some guitar parts in his Atmos mix of The Grateful Dead's American Beauty album appear partially in the wide speakers on a 9.1.x setup because he assigned them to objects positioned somewhere between the front & side channels.

 

[jimfisheye]

I think the cryptic-ness is unnecessary. If the mix engineer is mixing with a 7.1.4 speaker array for the main rig, it's a freakin' 7.1.4 mix. Atmos ability to speaker manage on the fly is crafty and welcome for sure! But we're not suddenly turning the speakers off and making the mix some conceptual experiment. We're listening, reacting, crafting as always.

I DO think the format has merit and I think the object system is crafty for speaker management. There's still the mix as heard on the original speaker system it was mixed on. 7.1.4 is hitting as default. (eg the Steve Wilson example) The concept of wanting to deliver the mix to a like speaker array 1:1 is still a thing. It doesn't downplay anything and in fact it's just the opposite. The system has the ability to deliver an original 7.1.4 mix to a 7.1.4 speaker array 1:1. That's a big deal and a hard starting point for a certain audience.

The restrictiveness is the only problem. Refusing to even sell the encoder subscription to outsiders is a hard call. That's what turned me off.

 

[mandrix]

I think the cryptic-ness is unnecessary. If the mix engineer is mixing with a 7.1.4 speaker array for the main rig, it's a freakin' 7.1.4 mix. Atmos ability to speaker manage on the fly is crafty and welcome for sure! But we're not suddenly turning the speakers off and making the mix some conceptual experiment. We're listening, reacting, crafting as always.

I DO think the format has merit and I think the object system is crafty for speaker management. There's still the mix as heard on the original speaker system it was mixed on. 7.1.4 is hitting as default. (eg the Steve Wilson example) The concept of wanting to deliver the mix to a like speaker array 1:1 is still a thing. It doesn't downplay anything and in fact it's just the opposite. The system has the ability to deliver an original 7.1.4 mix to a 7.1.4 speaker array 1:1. That's a big deal and a hard starting point for a certain audience.

The restrictiveness is the only problem. Refusing to even sell the encoder subscription to outsiders is a hard call. That's what turned me off.

Well beyond that, if you've heard the streaming mixes, some are really good and some are absolutely awful. I don't know what Dolby's criteria is exactly for who gets access to what, but it seems to me there are an awful lot of people out there not very good at using the tools.

As for playback of all formats on a pc, I was just thinking about DVDA. Sure, we can play it with Foobar but we can't see any menus or graphics. Since PowerDVD dropped support for DVDA a long time ago that still means using a disc player for graphics, though not necessarily a disc. (There may be some software that does but if so it's off my radar).

For Atmos playback I'm just going to stick with PowerDVD and bitstreaming to the AVR for now. But I'm pretty sure decoding will show up in the wild sooner or later. My point is that Dolby should at least market a decent software player, I think it's a missed opportunity on their part although I understand tying playback to hardware decoding is likely the bulk of their profit base. I just personally believe the number of people that use pc's/Mac's for all or most of their music playback isn't that large of a percentage, but hey, revenue is revenue regardless of delivery system.

I assume Cyberlink pays some sort of licensing fee to Dolby as they display Dolby logos...though not Atmos and they don't claim support for Atmos. But at least it has no problem handling the various container formats with Atmos lossy and lossless.