Ripping CD-4: Advice Please (Stylus/Cartridge, 24/192 Conversion)

[timalin]

Hi. I recently picked up a JVC 4DD-5 demodulator on eBay and have decided to attempt to digitise my small collection of CD-4 vinyl. I'm experienced at archiving vinyl and of digital matrix quad conversion, but CD-4 is a different beast and I was hoping to take advice on how to go about archiving at 24/192 given I've no experience of CD-4 at all.

1. What needles/cartridges are recommended? I read from the cartridge thread here the AT440MLa and AT440MLb are excellent but they are both discontinued. Are there any replacements or other recommendations that will do the job? I don't really wish to spend much more than £150.

2. Setting up the demodulator: There are L & R adjustment screws on the rear. The manual refers to the CD-4 Demodulator Adjustment Record. Should I acquire one of these in order to get the thing adjusted correctly?

3. I see that low-capacitance cables are recommended. What are they? I use Linn silver cables - will they do?

4. I would like to capture these at a minimum of 24/192 via USB 2.0, but my digital mixer only handles stereo analog to digital conversion. I envisage that there is an old soundcard or digital mixer that can capture 24+/192 in four or more channels simultaneously and wondered if anyone could recommend something I might pick up cheap on eBay.

5. Are there any other pitfalls or issues I should think of, being new to CD-4?

Thanks in advance.

 

[fredblue]

hi timalin

there are a number of us crazy QQ folk who have dabbled in CD-4 and so i imagine a number of members are bound to pop by with helpful tips acquired over the years.

i'm far from expert on all this, meantime my basic sort of checklist of things includes..

1.) your Turntable setup has to be spot on from the start (VTF, VTA, azimuth, anti-skate, etc..) i use the Hi-Fi News test disc and protractor to leave the guesswork out of it and do needledrops to ensure all aspects wrt separation, balance, resonance, tracking are as dialled in as can be in Stereo before fiddling about with CD-4.

It sounds like you may have all the turntable setup sorted already having done lots of vinyl archiving. If so, that's really half the battle done and dusted there i would say.

2.) your discs need to be pristine and/or ultra clean. CD-4 really hates dust and dirt!

3.) i've found Japanese pressings generally tend to perform better than domestic (U.S. CD-4 discs). earlier Japanese CD-4's are cut quieter and sometimes omit tracks. Japanese CD-4's from '74-75 including the Motown Quads can sound spectacular. some of the Arista/RCA/WEA discs were not such great pressings.

4.) those dinky demodulator setup discs can be very helpful for fine tuning the separation and carrier pots. your JVC demodulator may have come with one of the 45rpm 7" adjustment records manufacturers bundled in with their gear back in the day.

5.) resign yourself to a handful of discs just being troublesome (these have been documented on here in the past and incl. three i've given up on, such as Manilow's "This One's For You", Cat Stevens' G.Hits and Arista's Godspell). that is not to say these discs are "un-demodulate-able" as 1 or 2 brave heroes have conquered them, they are just notorious toughies!

oh and... fwiw, i've never been totally happy with the AT440MLb. i've gone through 2 of them in the last 5 years and tbh i still prefer the NOS AT15S i picked up a couple of years ago on eBay. i found the 15S more finicky to dial in but found it separates better with less distortion across the disc than the 440MLb, particularly on discs in better condition.

as for an audio interface, i use one of the old 8i/8o FireWire MOTU's hooked up to my Mac and capture the 4-channel output @ 96kHz / 32-bit float using Audacity.

above all.... Good Luck!

(yes its a pain of a system at times.. but when all the planets align it can be amazing so don't give up!)

 

[Circular Vibes]

1. I think you will find your budget a bit tight for a CD4 capable new cartridge. Audio Technica has new Shibata and Microline tips for the current series but no one has reported back to us if they work as well as the AT440mla/b. Vintage carts are a crapshoot only because you are stuck with aftermarket replacement styli that may not be up to original specs or old stock that has had the rubber mount harden.

2. I do reccomend a set up record. I prefer a Victor demo LP myself but there are many out there and most will work the same if they aren't damaged. With experience you will find songs that you get familiar with that you can tweak the adjustments just a wee bit better.

3. I have no idea if your cables are of low capacitance or not. In my particular case, I had to use genuine Technics cables on my tables. I had bought an SL1200mk2 that "high end" cables were installed. What a mess! Now I get splat free CD4 with an AT440mlb but worry once my stylus wears down. Best thing to do is try it out and go from there.

4. There are quite a few interfaces that do 4.0. The more current ones won't be terribly cheap though. Search QQ for threads on this as it has been disussed. I have a first generation MOTU 828 that uses Firewire and I got lucky buying it as recycling from an ePay seller that had no idea what they had or just wanted it gone.

5. The only other advice I can offer is invest in wet cleaning your CD4 discs if you buy them used. Groove debris is the death of a good CD4 signal.

 

[sjcorne]

I would like to capture these at a minimum of 24/192 via USB 2.0, but my digital mixer only handles stereo analog to digital conversion. I envisage that there is an old soundcard or digital mixer that can capture 24+/192 in four or more channels simultaneously and wondered if anyone could recommend something I might pick up cheap on eBay.

I use a Behringer UMC-404HD to capture all my quad stuff at 24/96, but I think it goes up to 192 as well. It's really easy to set up and works great.

 

[furui_suterioo]

I dont know exactly what it would take to accomplish but you could digitally record the raw 2ch output from the cd-4 and the play it back through a reverse preamp into the demodulator. I have wanting to do this but I dont have capture device or audio software and my turntable is a pioneer pl12d, I know that others have done this in order to use stereolab cd-4 software demodulator.

 

[timalin]

1.) your Turntable setup has to be spot on from the start (VTF, VTA, azimuth, anti-skate, etc..) i use the Hi-Fi News test disc and protractor to leave the guesswork out of it and do needledrops to ensure all aspects wrt separation, balance, resonance, tracking are as dialled in as can be in Stereo before fiddling about with CD-4.



It sounds like you may have all the turntable setup sorted already having done lots of vinyl archiving. If so, that's really half the battle done and dusted there i would say.

I set the turntable (Pro-Ject Debut Carbon) up when I bought it according to the manufacturer's guidance, but given it's been a few years, I'll be replacing the cartridge, and the necessity for precision when using CD-4, I'll do it from scratch when I get a new cartridge - there were no protractors involved first time round!

5. The only other advice I can offer is invest in wet cleaning your CD4 discs if you buy them used. Groove debris is the death of a good CD4 signal.

2.) your discs need to be pristine and/or ultra clean. CD-4 really hates dust and dirt!

Some are sealed, but they're mostly pristine. I'll dust them down, or wet-clean them if necessary.

3.) i've found Japanese pressings generally tend to perform better than domestic (U.S. CD-4 discs). earlier Japanese CD-4's are cut quieter and sometimes omit tracks. Japanese CD-4's from '74-75 including the Motown Quads can sound spectacular. some of the Arista/RCA/WEA discs were not such great pressings.

I'm in the UK so CD-4 is mostly imports. I'll maybe focus on Japanese in future if this project works out.

4.) those dinky demodulator setup discs can be very helpful for fine tuning the separation and carrier pots. your JVC demodulator may have come with one of the 45rpm 7" adjustment records manufacturers bundled in with their gear back in the day.

2. I do reccomend a set up record. I prefer a Victor demo LP myself but there are many out there and most will work the same if they aren't damaged. With experience you will find songs that you get familiar with that you can tweak the adjustments just a wee bit better.

5.) resign yourself to a handful of discs just being troublesome (these have been documented on here in the past and incl. three i've given up on, such as Manilow's "This One's For You", Cat Stevens' G.Hits and Arista's Godspell). that is not to say these discs are "un-demodulate-able" as 1 or 2 brave heroes have conquered them, they are just notorious toughies!

Sadly the set-up disc was missing, but they're easily available second-hand so I should be able to fine a good one. I'll check the forums for reliable titles to get me started, but I have to say it was a surprise to discover that CD-4 doesn't just work out of the box and needs to be tuned. I'd presumed that given it is discrete, there would be full separation rather than a trade-off between that and sound quality.

i've never been totally happy with the AT440MLb. i've gone through 2 of them in the last 5 years and tbh i still prefer the NOS AT15S i picked up a couple of years ago on eBay. i found the 15S more finicky to dial in but found it separates better with less distortion across the disc than the 440MLb, particularly on discs in better condition.

1. I think you will find your budget a bit tight for a CD4 capable new cartridge. Audio Technica has new Shibata and Microline tips for the current series but no one has reported back to us if they work as well as the AT440mla/b. Vintage carts are a crapshoot only because you are stuck with aftermarket replacement styli that may not be up to original specs or old stock that has had the rubber mount harden.

Looks like I'll have to keep my eyes open for old stock AT440MLs unless someone reviews the replacements. As a beginner it's probably unwise to procure legacy stylii as I'm not sure I'd be able to identify degradation as the weak link in a completely untested setup.

3. I have no idea if your cables are of low capacitance or not. In my particular case, I had to use genuine Technics cables on my tables. I had bought an SL1200mk2 that "high end" cables were installed. What a mess! Now I get splat free CD4 with an AT440mlb but worry once my stylus wears down. Best thing to do is try it out and go from there.

I've checked online and all Linn interconnects are low capacitance.

as for an audio interface, i use one of the old 8i/8o FireWire MOTU's hooked up to my Mac and capture the 4-channel output @ 96kHz / 32-bit float using Audacity.

I use a Behringer UMC-404HD to capture all my quad stuff at 24/96, but I think it goes up to 192 as well. It's really easy to set up and works great.

I checked out the Behringer UMC-404HD and it does support 4 x 24/192. It's around £100 new so hopefully I'll be able to pick one up even cheaper second-hand.

(yes its a pain of a system at times.. but when all the planets align it can be amazing so don't give up!)

Unfortunately my receiver doesn't support multichannel analog input so unless I replace it I'll never know the pleasure of putting on a quadraphonic LP, but I've got a few records that haven't been made available on the quad scene, so I'm really looking forward to hearing some of those long-lost mixes.

I dont know exactly what it would take to accomplish but you could digitally record the raw 2ch output from the cd-4 and the play it back through a reverse preamp into the demodulator. I have wanting to do this but I dont have capture device or audio software and my turntable is a pioneer pl12d, I know that others have done this in order to use stereolab cd-4 software demodulator.

I've just been reading about the Stereo Lab softward decoder and it looks really interesting, and I'll probably give it a go in the future, but it cost around the same as a second-hand audio interface, so I'll go down the analog demodulation path for now.

 

[fredblue]

I set the turntable (Pro-Ject Debut Carbon) up when I bought it according to the manufacturer's guidance, but given it's been a few years, I'll be replacing the cartridge, and the necessity for precision when using CD-4, I'll do it from scratch when I get a new cartridge - there were no protractors involved first time round!







Some are sealed, but they're mostly pristine. I'll dust them down, or wet-clean them if necessary.


I'm in the UK so CD-4 is mostly imports. I'll maybe focus on Japanese in future if this project works out.




Sadly the set-up disc was missing, but they're easily available second-hand so I should be able to fine a good one. I'll check the forums for reliable titles to get me started, but I have to say it was a surprise to discover that CD-4 doesn't just work out of the box and needs to be tuned. I'd presumed that given it is discrete, there would be full separation rather than a trade-off between that and sound quality.



Looks like I'll have to keep my eyes open for old stock AT440MLs unless someone reviews the replacements. As a beginner it's probably unwise to procure legacy stylii as I'm not sure I'd be able to identify degradation as the weak link in a completely untested setup.


I've checked online and all Linn interconnects are low capacitance.




I checked out the Behringer UMC-404HD and it does support 4 x 24/192. It's around £100 new so hopefully I'll be able to pick one up even cheaper second-hand.


Unfortunately my receiver doesn't support multichannel analog input so unless I replace it I'll never know the pleasure of putting on a quadraphonic LP, but I've got a few records that haven't been made available on the quad scene, so I'm really looking forward to hearing some of those long-lost mixes.


I've just been reading about the Stereo Lab softward decoder and it looks really interesting, and I'll probably give it a go in the future, but it cost around the same as a second-hand audio interface, so I'll go down the analog demodulation path for now.

well.. i hate to be the voice of doom... and its only my experience.. but fwiw i just couldn't get my Project (Phono Debut SB) to any satisfactory point for Quad. there just didn't seem to be enough ready adjustment for a finicky format like CD-4.. i found even SQ required a finer level of setup than i could get from my Project, since i was going for maximum separation.. hence some models of the S&IC had an "axial tilt" compensation control for SQ decoding, some turntables unfortunately lack the ability to make the necessary granular adjustments.

on my SL-1210 i can gradually adjust anti-skate and (slowly and carefully!) adjust VTA on the fly.. and azimuth is easy to play with, just twist the headshell until the distortions gone, or at least lessened... and even with all that incremental level of adjustment available i've still found some CD-4 discs to be a total nightmare!

which CD-4 LPs do you plan to do?
its no reason not to have a go and do it yourself (that's why i got into it, it can be a lot of fun!) but at this point a fair bit of stuff has been converted already, a number of titles multiple times over the years.

 

[timalin]

well.. i hate to be the voice of doom... and its only my experience.. but fwiw i just couldn't get my Project (Phono Debut SB) to any satisfactory point for Quad. there just didn't seem to be enough ready adjustment for a finicky format like CD-4.. i found even SQ required a finer level of setup than i could get from my Project, since i was going for maximum separation.. hence some models of the S&IC had an "axial tilt" compensation control for SQ decoding, some turntables unfortunately lack the ability to make the necessary granular adjustments.

on my SL-1210 i can gradually adjust anti-skate and (slowly and carefully!) adjust VTA on the fly.. and azimuth is easy to play with, just twist the headshell until the distortions gone, or at least lessened... and even with all that incremental level of adjustment available i've still found some CD-4 discs to be a total nightmare!

which CD-4 LPs do you plan to do?
its no reason not to have a go and do it yourself (that's why i got into it, it can be a lot of fun!) but at this point a fair bit of stuff has been converted already, a number of titles multiple times over the years.

That is very disappointing, but exactly the sort of thing I needed to hear before I started splashing out on useless kit. I have been contemplating getting an SL1210 but it's low priority and possible CD-4 would just be a bonus. Presumably the software route would suffer the same setback with a belt drive.

That's interesting to hear that others have already digitised most titles. I've come across a handful on the internet but am missing a few of the ones I own. TBH my interest in CD-4 is in hearing these titles, and the kit is just an (expensive) means to an end.

My CD-4 collection in full, all in excellent to pristine condition:
Arlo Guthrie - Last Of The Brooklyn Cowboys
Bette Midler - The Divine Miss M
Bill Wyman - Monkey Grip
Carly Simon - No Secrets
Carly Simon ‎– Playing Possum
David Gates - Never Let Her Go
Deaf School - 2nd Honeymoon
Donny Hathaway - Extension Of A Man
Gordon Lightfoot - Cold On The Shoulder
Gordon Lightfoot - Sundown
Graham Central Station - Ain't No 'Bout-A-Doubt It
José Feliciano - Compartments
Nilsson ‎– Nilsson Schmilsson
Randy Newman - Good Old Boys

 

[sjcorne]

My CD-4 collection in full, all in excellent to pristine condition

The crazy thing about CD-4 is that visual grading and even stereo playback aren't good indications of how the disc will actually sound when demodulated. I've had a couple of WEA CD-4 discs (Deep Purple's Machine Head, Alice Cooper's Billion Dollar Babies) that were fine in stereo, but unlistenable in four channel.

 

[timalin]

The crazy thing about CD-4 is that visual grading and even stereo playback aren't good indications of how the disc will actually sound when demodulated. I've had a couple of WEA CD-4 discs (Deep Purple's Machine Head, Alice Cooper's Billion Dollar Babies) that were fine in stereo, but unlistenable in four channel.

The more I hear the worse it gets! It definitely sounds like more effort than it's worth for a dozen or so LPs.

 

[Cyber 1]

My CD-4 collection in full, all in excellent to pristine condition:
Bill Wyman - Monkey Grip

That one is

all the others are

the VM series "should " be a good choice , if your playing stereo LP's too then I would give a VM540 ML are try

 

[fredblue]

That is very disappointing, but exactly the sort of thing I needed to hear before I started splashing out on useless kit. I have been contemplating getting an SL1210 but it's low priority and possible CD-4 would just be a bonus. Presumably the software route would suffer the same setback with a belt drive.

That's interesting to hear that others have already digitised most titles. I've come across a handful on the internet but am missing a few of the ones I own. TBH my interest in CD-4 is in hearing these titles, and the kit is just an (expensive) means to an end.

My CD-4 collection in full, all in excellent to pristine condition:
Arlo Guthrie - Last Of The Brooklyn Cowboys
Bette Midler - The Divine Miss M
Bill Wyman - Monkey Grip
Carly Simon - No Secrets
Carly Simon ‎– Playing Possum
David Gates - Never Let Her Go
Deaf School - 2nd Honeymoon
Donny Hathaway - Extension Of A Man
Gordon Lightfoot - Cold On The Shoulder
Gordon Lightfoot - Sundown
Graham Central Station - Ain't No 'Bout-A-Doubt It
José Feliciano - Compartments
Nilsson ‎– Nilsson Schmilsson
Randy Newman - Good Old Boys

Arlo, Bette, Carly, Donny, Gordon, Jose's Compartments & Nilsson Schmilsson have all been done from Q4 Reel to Reel tape Quad sources, i only muck about with the CD-4's of all those nowadays for fun really

 

[fredblue]

That is very disappointing, but exactly the sort of thing I needed to hear before I started splashing out on useless kit. I have been contemplating getting an SL1210 but it's low priority and possible CD-4 would just be a bonus. Presumably the software route would suffer the same setback with a belt drive.

That's interesting to hear that others have already digitised most titles. I've come across a handful on the internet but am missing a few of the ones I own. TBH my interest in CD-4 is in hearing these titles, and the kit is just an (expensive) means to an end.

My CD-4 collection in full, all in excellent to pristine condition:
Arlo Guthrie - Last Of The Brooklyn Cowboys
Bette Midler - The Divine Miss M
Bill Wyman - Monkey Grip
Carly Simon - No Secrets
Carly Simon ‎– Playing Possum
David Gates - Never Let Her Go
Deaf School - 2nd Honeymoon
Donny Hathaway - Extension Of A Man
Gordon Lightfoot - Cold On The Shoulder
Gordon Lightfoot - Sundown
Graham Central Station - Ain't No 'Bout-A-Doubt It
José Feliciano - Compartments
Nilsson ‎– Nilsson Schmilsson
Randy Newman - Good Old Boys

oh yeah i nearly forgot, i did the Deaf School a few years ago. they're very full sides of vinyl by CD-4 standards, cut close to the label with smaller runouts than are ideal for the format, there was a minor bit of splatting towards the end of the disc as i recall but it turned out ok.

 

[timalin]

That one is

all the others are

the VM series "should " be a good choice , if your playing stereo LP's too then I would give a VM540 ML are try

TBH it's more than I would have liked to spend if I had been going ahead with this, but I don't think I'll bother now as I need a new turntable!

 

[timalin]

oh yeah i nearly forgot, i did the Deaf School a few years ago. they're very full sides of vinyl by CD-4 standards, cut close to the label with smaller runouts than are ideal for the format, there was a minor bit of splatting towards the end of the disc as i recall but it turned out ok.

I love that album and was hugely surprised to discover it in quad. That and the GCS one were what instigated my buying the demodulator, really.

 

[fredblue]

The crazy thing about CD-4 is that visual grading and even stereo playback aren't good indications of how the disc will actually sound when demodulated. I've had a couple of WEA CD-4 discs (Deep Purple's Machine Head, Alice Cooper's Billion Dollar Babies) that were fine in stereo, but unlistenable in four channel.

this is so so true!

case in point, i was mucking about with some Carly Simon CD-4's recently and of the two copies of "No Secrets" i have the one in much worse-looking condition (and worse shape all-round, its warped, scuffed, the sleeve's water damaged, you name it) demodulated the best. the other copy appears unplayed, sounds fine in Stereo.. and i go to demodulate it and... "there's nothing you can do to..." splaaaaaat.. "more than anyone can saaaaaayyyy..." etc.

 

[fredblue]

TBH it's more than I would have liked to spend if I had been going ahead with this, but I don't think I'll bother now as I need a new turntable!

i shudder to calculate the cost of dabbling in CD-4... 4 x carts, 4 x demodulators, a new turntable, record cleaning machine, test discs... easily in excess of £2k on the gear alone. then there's the discs themselves.. it was my 40th, seemed like a good time to hit the milestone full-on with a complete Quad mid-life crisis!

 

[fredblue]

I love that album and was hugely surprised to discover it in quad. That and the GCS one were what instigated my buying the demodulator, really.

the album is superb! the Quad mix is good, with active pans and generally pleasing placement. you have the Quad disc anyway, PM me anytime for info on Flacs, etc.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

That one is

all the others are

the VM series "should " be a good choice , if your playing stereo LP's too then I would give a VM540 ML are try

Do you use the VM540 ML on CD-4 & QS also, if so how do you like them? I've got a VM740 ML I haven't tried on Quad yet but it sounded very crisp clean and tight for regular stereo. I've been using a AT440MLb for my Quad.

 

[Cyber 1]

Do you use the VM540 ML on CD-4 & QS also, if so how do you like them? I've got a VM740 ML I haven't tried on Quad yet but it sounded very crisp clean and tight for regular stereo. I've been using a AT440MLb for my Quad.

No haven't yet as I'm without a dedicated table for 4 ch at the moment, I do have a 440MLB that I did use a few years ago which as you know works great, I also have a Vm540 and a VM740 and a VM760 and a 150SA, all of them have not been driven into 4ch territory at this point. But having run all in 2 ch the VM540 seems to be a smoother but similar to the 440MLB.