Room Correction: How, why, where?

[MTB Vince]

I totally agree with you 100%.
My fear as I have flush ceiling mount (4) speakers would be that the cloud panel would take away from the direct line signal to my seating area.
I built my Atmos room basically at the start of Atmos rooms being built, if I had to do over again I absolutely would do as you did with hang down speakers.
As I suspect and as you say my celling flush mount speakers are off the table when it comes to cloud.
However I am in process of doing a revamp of certain equipment, in research phase now, and possibly this year I will change from my flush mounts to hanging mounts like yours.
My flush mounts at tome of purchase was B&W's top of line. None of my other speakers are flush mount all cabinets.
What is your brand of hanging, if I may ask.
Thanks for the solid input.

Hey @marpow,

The K&M (Konig & Meyer) speaker mounts I use were those specifically recommended by ATC Loudspeakers for the ceiling/wall mount install version of their ATC SCM12 Pro studio monitor. The SCM12i(nstall variant) features a heavy threaded steel reinforced back plate. K&M makes matching interface plates which mates to the specific 4 bolt pattern on the rear of the SCM12i (and many other pro audio studio monitors). The interface plate then uses a locking keyhole arrangement to easily and securely attach to the K&M #24496 adjustable ceiling mount.

https://www.k-m.de/en/products/spea...eaker-ceiling-mount-black?number=24496-000-55
K&M's wares are purchased at better Pro Audio and Musical Instrument retailers world-wide. I bought mine along with quartet of ATC SCM12i monitors from Studio Economik in Montreal Canada.

 

[mandrix]

So no out of pocket cost for me, since my RZ50 had the Dirac Live firmware built in. I am a big fan of the pc app. You will need a mic like the UMIK-1 and either a boom stand or a mic stand. I bought an adapter which fits the UMIK-1 mic to my tripod stand.

The software lets you measure the response from all speakers at your MLP. Then when you get all speakers adjusted to the same output you can move on the next phase and take measurements at different levels (of elevation) and of course starting at the MLP. You can choose tightly focused (if you listen in one spot) or two other options for a broader range (such as a couch where several people may sit). Once you have measured all the indicated positions, Dirac will assemble filters, which you can save as a baseline file in case you want to make adjustments and or go back to the baseline measurements and make other corrections and save as a separate file.. And/or you can load the Harman filters as well which help with the lower end a bit.

Assuming you have an AVR that will load the filters (my RZ50 has 3 slots for filters) and I can switch between them.
There is a learning curve, but it's not that bad. There is also a Dirac Live thread on the AVSForum, and Dirac Live's helpdesk is fairly responsive and helpful.
Suggest also any threads you can find for your AVR that discuss Dirac Live.

 

[Sal1950]

Assuming you have an AVR that will load the filters (my RZ50 has 3 slots for filters) and I can switch between them.

Just curious what it uses to load the filters on, USB thumbs?

 

[mandrix]

Just curious what it uses to load the filters on, USB thumbs?

No, it does it either wireless or wired over your LAN from the pc to the device, and you pick which slot you want it in. At least with Onkyo's.

 

[Sal1950]

No, it does it either wireless or wired over your LAN from the pc to the device, and you pick which slot you want it in. At least with Onkyo's.

So your not speaking of actual physical "slots", just memory cores in the AVR's CPU ?

 

[ar surround]

FWIW - I relented and did the Audyssey calibration included with the Denon AVR-X4300h one more time (4th try). And then it was magic! It glued everything together for me in this mancave/office room. It did make the RR main way loud, but I pulled that down and pleased with the results. I played recordings with fast panning moves where the sound died out and came back previously. Now they play evenly so I'm pretty pleased about that. It's so much more than channels volume itself.

Now that’s odd. Audyssey did the same thing to me…made the Right Rear about 1.5 dB too loud.

 

[mandrix]

So your not speaking of actual physical "slots", just memory cores in the AVR's CPU ?

Yes, I would expect so. slots is just a number to identify one download from Dirac Live from another.

 

[ssully]

Now that’s odd. Audyssey did the same thing to me…made the Right Rear about 1.5 dB too loud.

I've found that a post-check of calibrated levels with a sound meter usually shows all the speakers are level matched at the MLP (with DEQ and dynamic volume off)

 

[Sal1950]

I've found that a post-check of calibrated levels with a sound meter usually shows all the speakers are level matched at the MLP (with DEQ and dynamic volume off)

Sorry if I haven't read this thread thoroughly enough but,
My experience and that of many others along with Marantz's explanation have been the fact that Dynamic EQ raises the rear levels for some reason that has never made sense to me.
But in any case I've never heard any talk about the L & R rears being affected unevenly?

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Sorry if I haven't read this thread thoroughly enough but,
My experience and that of many others along with Marantz's explanation have been the fact that Dynamic EQ raises the rear levels for some reason that has never made sense to me.
But in any case I've never heard any talk about the L & R rears being affected unevenly?

Per Marantz:
"Dynamic EQ works with your Audyssey calibration to solve the problem of deteriorating sound quality as volume is decreased by taking into account human perception and room acoustics."

Remember in olden days when every preamp or receiver had a button marked loudness? A fourth tap from the volume control went to an EQ circuit and as the volume control was turned to lower range it boosted the treble & bass, mostly the latter. The effect of hearing high & low frequencies differently at different loudness levels is called the Fletcher-Munson Curve. This Dynamic EQ seems to be a more sophisticated implementation.

However Marantz says nothing about it affecting the rear chs more than the front. My expectation would be to adjust all chs together to get the desired response.

 

[Sal1950]

I fully understand loudness compensation and the F-M curve.
But yes, Marantz does raise the rear levels in relation to the fronts when DEQ is active and have given explanations of why they do so. Let me see if I can find a link for you.

 

[weekendtoy]

This is why DEQ is bad for multi-channel music listening, it's un-natural. I only engage it for music if a particular title has a poor surround mix and needs a little 'boost'.

DEQ for movies - YES
DEQ for music - NO

 

[Sal1950]

However Marantz says nothing about it affecting the rear chs more than the front. My expectation would be to adjust all chs together to get the desired response.

* In addition to restoring acoustic equilibrium to 5.1 movie soundtracks, at below Reference levels, the designers of DEQ also decided to add another feature to the DEQ software program. Reasoning that sounds from behind were harder to hear than sounds from in front, or from out to the side (due to our pinnae--ear flaps--which funnel sounds into our ear canals) DEQ was also designed to slightly boost the volume in all of the surround channels.
(That second assumption, regarding difficulty hearing sounds out to the sides, is not actually correct. We hear sounds directly from the side even better than sounds from in front. And, our ears are designed to funnel sounds into our ear canals from that direction too. Examples of actually hearing better from the sides are all around us. For instance, we turn our heads, so that one ear faces a sound that we are having trouble hearing. It's true for normal conversation, for sirens in the distance, and for sounds in our HT systems. Listeners whose surround speakers are directly out to the sides, at 90 degrees, may have more problems with DEQ's surround boosts, than listeners whose surround speakers are slightly behind them at about 110 degrees.)
The surround boost increases, as the master volume goes down, at a fixed rate. I believe that about +1dB of surround boost is added for every -5dB of MV. So, at a listening level of -15 MV (which might be a typical average) there would be approximately +3dB of surround boost. Some users find the surround boost of DEQ helpful, or unnoticeable. Other users, who prefer not to hear a surround boost, often slightly reduce individual surround trims, or use the Reference Level Offset (RLO) feature to attenuate the surround boost.

 

[ssully]

Sorry if I haven't read this thread thoroughly enough but,
My experience and that of many others along with Marantz's explanation have been the fact that Dynamic EQ raises the rear levels for some reason that has never made sense to me.

Yes DEQ does do that, and Audyssey has explained it as psychoacoustic adjustment warranted from their own research..... but so what?
DEQ is an option, not a irreducible result of Audyssey room EQ.

As I wrote, I observe auto-calibration being in line with meter readings with DEQ and dynamic volume off.

But in any case I've never heard any talk about the L & R rears being affected unevenly?

Neither have I.

 

[ssully]

Per Marantz:
"Dynamic EQ works with your Audyssey calibration to solve the problem of deteriorating sound quality as volume is decreased by taking into account human perception and room acoustics."

Remember in olden days when every preamp or receiver had a button marked loudness? A fourth tap from the volume control went to an EQ circuit and as the volume control was turned to lower range it boosted the treble & bass, mostly the latter. The effect of hearing high & low frequencies differently at different loudness levels is called the Fletcher-Munson Curve. This Dynamic EQ seems to be a more sophisticated implementation.

That in itself does not explain raising the rear channels by several dB.

However Marantz says nothing about it affecting the rear chs more than the front. My expectation would be to adjust all chs together to get the desired response.

I think this discussion is getting tangled..

Audyssey (versus the vendors like Marantz/Denon/Onkyo that licesnse the technology) has FOR YEARS made it known that DEQ , in addition to being an all-channel graduated loudness/EQ compensator that can be user-adjusted to 'kick in' at different master volumes, ALSO raises the rear channel levels an extra amount, to compensate for what they say is a psychoacoustic effect specifically endemic to rear channel audio.

I don't find it particularly annoying, and the benefits of loudness compensation are far more significant to me. Also, one can always re-adjust a channel level oneself.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

* In addition to restoring acoustic equilibrium to 5.1 movie soundtracks, at below Reference levels, the designers of DEQ also decided to add another feature to the DEQ software program. Reasoning that sounds from behind were harder to hear than sounds from in front, or from out to the side (due to our pinnae--ear flaps--which funnel sounds into our ear canals) DEQ was also designed to slightly boost the volume in all of the surround channels.
(That second assumption, regarding difficulty hearing sounds out to the sides, is not actually correct. We hear sounds directly from the side even better than sounds from in front. And, our ears are designed to funnel sounds into our ear canals from that direction too. Examples of actually hearing better from the sides are all around us. For instance, we turn our heads, so that one ear faces a sound that we are having trouble hearing. It's true for normal conversation, for sirens in the distance, and for sounds in our HT systems. Listeners whose surround speakers are directly out to the sides, at 90 degrees, may have more problems with DEQ's surround boosts, than listeners whose surround speakers are slightly behind them at about 110 degrees.)
The surround boost increases, as the master volume goes down, at a fixed rate. I believe that about +1dB of surround boost is added for every -5dB of MV. So, at a listening level of -15 MV (which might be a typical average) there would be approximately +3dB of surround boost. Some users find the surround boost of DEQ helpful, or unnoticeable. Other users, who prefer not to hear a surround boost, often slightly reduce individual surround trims, or use the Reference Level Offset (RLO) feature to attenuate the surround boost.

Thanks for digging that up. I don't do ATMOS or DRC but I do like learning something new.

 

[Sal1950]

Thanks for digging that up. I don't do ATMOS or DRC but I do like learning something new.

No problem, glad to help.
Just an FYI, Audyssey is DRC (Digital Room Correction) of which there are many many flavors (Audyssey, Dirac, ARC, and the rest)

 

[ssully]

And ATMOS isn't any of those, it's a multichannel mixing/playback format.

 

[Sal1950]

Audyssey (versus the vendors like Marantz/Denon/Onkyo that licesnse the technology) has FOR YEARS made it known that DEQ , in addition to being an all-channel graduated loudness/EQ compensator that can be user-adjusted to 'kick in' at different master volumes, ALSO raises the rear channel levels an extra amount, to compensate for what they say is a psychoacoustic effect specifically endemic to rear channel audio.

I don't find it particularly annoying, and the benefits of loudness compensation are far more significant to me. Also, one can always re-adjust a channel level oneself.

I do agree that it's benefits are worth it's "bugs" but personally do find the changing of the rear balance annoying. I've tried to compensate for it by "re-adjusting" the rear levels but the fact that it is dynamic and changes with volume level makes it impossible to completely correct for.
I have for years hoped that the powers at Audyssey would remove this "feature". Of all the discussions that has gone on at AVS Forum and others, I've never remember reading where anyone thought it was a good thing. Also I don't know the other systems like Dirac etc like I do Audyssey, but I don't remember reading where any of them mess with rear channel levels dynamically with SPL?
Just don't make sense to me, but obviously someone at Audyssey did. LOL

 

[Sonik Wiz]

And ATMOS isn't any of those, it's a multichannel mixing/playback format.

Well aware of that.