Surround Master - What's Next? EV? DY? UHJ?

[Quadwreck]

Just so we can accurately decode our more obscure matrix formats, have you considered the rest of the matrix systems?

 

[rustyandi]

I have decoded EV4 with the S/Master you can see the
results on the vector scope
and I have decoded others and they are as good
EV4 is compatible with QS
read wickipedia
as for DY the S/Master gives a better effect than DY speaker wiring
UHJ is not to bad with the S/Master
As you may have read Sansui did not have to do much work to
alter there decoder to play the system

 

[oxforddickie]

I have decoded EV4 with the S/Master you can see the
results on the vector scope
and I have decoded others and they are as good
EV4 is compatible with QS
read wickipedia
as for DY the S/Master gives a better effect than DY speaker wiring
UHJ is not to bad with the S/Master
As you may have read Sansui did not have to do much work to
alter there decoder to play the system

And yet again i offer you to prove this with a test. You refused last time, but YET AGAIN you keep staing it decodes EV-4 is compatible with QS. IT IS NOT. This shows your total lack of knowledge.

I AGAIN offer you to show the units ability to decode EV-4 with a test.

Over to you

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

When it comes to matrix formats, say what you will, but OD is THE expert.

 

[oxforddickie]

Well, thank you for that (although a little barbed) i have spent far too long working on these matrix systems, and his total lack of knowledge shows with every posting.

FACT: DY & EV-4 ARE NOT what are called 'Phase Matrix' systems, which all matrix systems following them (apart from Matrix H 1977) are.

DY/EV4 ARE NOT compatible with ANY of the 'Phase Matrix' systems.

DY/EV-4 were never meant to supply the same 'quadraphonic' effect as later systems. The decoders were designed to 'GIVE AN EFFECT', which was around 14db front L/R seperation (slight difference between the two) and a maximum of 2db rear L/R seperation. There was talk of the possibility of logic being applied to either of the decoders, but as soon as you delve into the mathematics, you realise there is a serious problem with both systems: THERE IS NO CENTER REAR.

This has a major effect on the ability of decoding the rear channels, and I can see no way around this using logic circuitry. What i did with DY/II & EV-4/II was only possible with the power of modern day computers.

So, i await Rustyandi's responce. Don't back down like you did last time. But, if you do, and i want the moderators to take note, you are never to mention this subject again.

Prove it, or shut up!

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

I assure you nothing was meant to be barbed there. Although, backing someone into a corner with a challenge isn't likely to yield positive results.

Why must everyone be over the top?

Ultimately, we all have a common goal here. No?

 

[oxforddickie]

He continually states things that are untrue. I recently offered him the chance to prove this posting, and a couple of members were waiting for the test, but yet again he backed down. QQ is full of this false rubbish, time it stopped, especially when he is 'the cheif tester for Involve', it brings into question any of his statements.

 

[Q8]

Well, thank you for that (although a little barbed) i have spent far too long working on these matrix systems, and his total lack of knowledge shows with every posting.

FACT: DY & EV-4 ARE NOT what are called 'Phase Matrix' systems, which all matrix systems following them (apart from Matrix H 1977) are.

DY/EV4 ARE NOT compatible with ANY of the 'Phase Matrix' systems.

DY/EV-4 were never meant to supply the same 'quadraphonic' effect as later systems. The decoders were designed to 'GIVE AN EFFECT', which was around 14db front L/R seperation (slight difference between the two) and a maximum of 2db rear L/R seperation. There was talk of the possibility of logic being applied to either of the decoders, but as soon as you delve into the mathematics, you realise there is a serious problem with both systems: THERE IS NO CENTER REAR.

This has a major effect on the ability of decoding the rear channels, and I can see no way around this using logic circuitry. What i did with DY/II & EV-4/II was only possible with the power of modern day computers.

So, i await Rustyandi's responce. Don't back down like you did last time. But, if you do, and i want the moderators to take note, you are never to mention this subject again.

Prove it, or shut up!

I agree that they are not compatible in an accurate way with QS.

I however have resevations about dumping EV-4 into the same class as Dynaquad. Even though they are both amplitude decoders, I am fairly certain EV-4 is capable of creating distinct quadraphonic seperation. The product of hardware EV-4 decoder is in a whole other league than the quadpter. Sometime I will have to make some files to back up my claims as well. EV-4 is by no means perfect, but in my oppinion, it beats the early efforts by the other decoder types.

The only reason I could even begin to believe that what rusty is saying about the quadapter accurately decoding EV-4, is that the product of Stereo Synthesizing feels very similar to QS. Please don't take that as me believing the Surround Master accurately decodes EV-4

 

[oxforddickie]

Actually, DY & EV-4 encode the rears in exactly the same way, no difference. The only difference between the two systems is in the way the Fronts are encoded, and that is a small difference, so much so it made no difference realyy whether either of the decoders were used on either of the systems, but it does matter whenb trying to reproduce the original four channel material from either of the two systems.

Basically, they were the same, both sharing the same problems which limited them from competing with the two main phase matrix systems that followed.

The issue of the decoders is that the DY one used very basic passive methods of producing the effect, which meant 'decoding' was performed at the speaker outputs, whereas the EV-4 decoder used active circuitry at line level to perform the job.

Either way, as i said, they were 95% the same. The only person who believes the involve unit performs accurate EV-4 decoding is Rustyandi. I've seen nobody else state that.

And as far as i'm concerned, here in the 21st century, is ACCURACY. We should be way past the time of putting up with inferior decoding.

 

[Owen Smith]

I have decoded EV4 with the S/Master you can see the
results on the vector scope
and I have decoded others and they are as good
EV4 is compatible with QS
read wickipedia
as for DY the S/Master gives a better effect than DY speaker wiring
UHJ is not to bad with the S/Master
As you may have read Sansui did not have to do much work to
alter there decoder to play the system

Back in the 70s manufactures made all sorts of claims about compatibility between systems in order to sell their decoders and encoded music. EV-4 was one of the first out, so of course some of the systems that came out later claimed compatibility with it so early adopters could upgrade to eg. QS and continue to play their old albums. Marketing BS has always existed and always will. Doesn't make it true.

As for wikipedia, it's a good resource but always has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Each article is only as accurate as the knowledge of the person that wrote it. If they repeat 70s marketing BS it's still wrong, being in wikipedia doesn't make it gospel truth.

 

[oxforddickie]

UHJ is not to bad with the S/Master

UHJ is probably the last of the 'Phase Matrix' systems, but is is not compatible with RM based systems as it only uses one 90 degree phase shift, which basically means it's compatible with nothing but a true UHJ decoder.

The reason is not like other matrix sysems using the four channels to create a stereo image, but is 3 Ambisonic signals matrixed to give a stereo image. To decode UHJ, you first need to accuratly decode the UHJ original to the three 'X, Y & Z' elements, that then need to be fed into an Ambisonics decoder.

Using any artificial means of decoding will result in the 'ambiance' in the rear, type of effect

 

[jaypfunk]

i have no idea what most of what you guys are debating about here but I LOVE the passion.

FUCK THE WHALES, SAVE THE QUADS!!

 

[timbre4]

The QQ forum is provided for the open exchange of ideas and civility is the key. If something is incorrct, let's gently get on to some better conclusions together.

Frankly at the end of the day, the world keeps spinning no matter what the outcomes here. With that in mind, let's keep the process going but please chill it out.

 

[chucky3042]

Hi All

This tread is getting a bit nasty, but here goes.

First - Rustyandi is not our "chief tester" he is in fact our first and closest (in terms of distance) customer, he has a wonderful knowledge of all forms of surround and offers an opinion based on actually listening to the thing. He does not have a technical knowledge of how the Surround Master works any more than the "great" Oxforddickie but at least he has the dignity of reporting accurately what he hears.

On Rustyandi's request we did a vectorscope look at an EV recording of "one fine morning" by lighthouse, it really sounded very discrete. Yes I understand the vectorscope is not a totally accurate quantitative test but it can be an interesting visual clue to whats happening.

here it is, the delay was not Rustyandie "backing out of the challenge" it was us being a bit too busy to publish the test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbktwj2wJKY&feature=youtu.be

Regards

Chucky

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Any chance that a 4 channel and 2 channel versions of the one fine morning file could be posted somewhere? I have a 4 channel discreet version of one fine morning. I would be curious to hear the surround master vs. software ev4 decoding vs. discreet.

 

[Q8]

Also can someone tell me what record the EV-4 verion is from? I think it's some EV-4 smpler?

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...ck-listings-here&p=65209&viewfull=1#post65209

It was also on a sylvania Q8 sampler of Evolution material.

A few posts below the above link is another evolution sampler that includes Hats Off To The Stranger. I recently picked up a sealed copy, and a software decode is being done on it.

 

[rustyandi]

Well it seems that I have got up somebody’s SKIRT
I said that the Surround Master (Involve) and the QSD1 Gives the best
Decoding for EV4 and gives the best effect to DY
And they do
Do you know of another one that is better?
Now I don’t know if the units are 93 or 95 or 98 per cent
Compatible but I have shown on the Vectorscope the decoding process
Look up
Involve Audio
Vectorscope Decoding EV4
There are other Demo’s of the decoding
What do you say is happening?
The Lp is a Aus. copy of Evolution Sampler (the one that is shown above By ArmyofQuad)

I had Charlie put another demo
One fine Morning
By Lighthouse
If you want to make a Decoder to give a better decode well then the best of luck
There is depending on your music taste’s only
Between 10 and 25 EV4 records worth playing

 

[oxforddickie]

Well it seems that I have got up somebody’s SKIRT
I said that the Surround Master (Involve) and the QSD1 Gives the best
Decoding for EV4 and gives the best effect to DY
And they do
Do you know of another one that is better?
Now I don’t know if the units are 93 or 95 or 98 per cent
Compatible but I have shown on the Vectorscope the decoding process
Look up
Involve Audio
Vectorscope Decoding EV4
There are other Demo’s of the decoding
What do you say is happening?
The Lp is a Aus. copy of Evolution Sampler (the one that is shown above By ArmyofQuad)

I had Charlie put another demo
One fine Morning
By Lighthouse
If you want to make a Decoder to give a better decode well then the best of luck
There is depending on your music taste’s only
Between 10 and 25 EV4 records worth playing

So, take up my offer. Vector scopes are meanigless in the real world. As i said before i'll supply a track that has been compared to the Q4 version. Then we'll see if the unit can decode EV-4 as you say. It's no prove just banging on about 'what you and others say'.

The only proof is a comparison with the real thing.

 

[oxforddickie]

Any chance that a 4 channel and 2 channel versions of the one fine morning file could be posted somewhere? I have a 4 channel discreet version of one fine morning. I would be curious to hear the surround master vs. software ev4 decoding vs. discreet.

OK RUSTY, here's your chance. Take it!