The DVD-A Workshop forum

[timbre4]

I used to get very elaborate and had template screens for quad / 5.1 albums I would open n Snagit and swap in the cover art for each, still photos per album or track and a closer it would return to at the end. then I found some players like the Acura DVD-A player or the (*&%(^$ Denon BDP 1711 or other machines wouldn't play some of them. The Oppo players always would of course. So now I go with FLACs and let it build the disc image w/o artwork.

 

[paligap]

So I used DVD-Audio Solo to create a DVD-Audio disc from the FLAC files I ripped from ELP's Tarkus. The disc plays in my Oppo, but the player in my car doesn't read it. When I look at the disc on my PC, there is a Video_TS folder, but it's empty. I think that might be the problem because the two DVD-Audio discs I have that will play the lossless stream in my car have two characteristics:

1. They have only lossless streams.
2. Their Video_TS folders are not empty.

I wonder if it's possible the lossless streams are also in their Video_TS folders. How could I find out?
If not, I wonder what I could put in the Video_TS folder to get a created DVD-Audio disc to work in my car.

 

[mandrix]

So I used DVD-Audio Solo to create a DVD-Audio disc from the FLAC files I ripped from ELP's Tarkus. The disc plays in my Oppo, but the player in my car doesn't read it. When I look at the disc on my PC, there is a Video_TS folder, but it's empty. I think that might be the problem because the two DVD-Audio discs I have that will play the lossless stream in my car have two characteristics:

1. They have only lossless streams.
2. Their Video_TS folders are not empty.

I wonder if it's possible the lossless streams are also in their Video_TS folders. How could I find out?
If not, I wonder what I could put in the Video_TS folder to get a created DVD-Audio disc to work in my car.

There are no lossless streams in the VIDEO_TS folder, there's no allowance in the spec for it. Now what DVD-Audio Solo does is not in spec anyway, so who knows. But no, there should be no lossless streams because the DVD spec says so.
Are you sure your car player only plays lossless? It would not be uncommon that the lossy portion is being played.

 

[mandrix]

There are no lossless streams in the VIDEO_TS folder, there's no allowance in the spec for it. Now what DVD-Audio Solo does is not in spec anyway, so who knows. But no, there should be no lossless streams because the DVD spec says so.
Are you sure your car player only plays lossless? It would not be uncommon that the lossy portion is being played.

Well let me back up a bit. It's been a long time since I authored a DVD disc, which is where the VIDEO_TS folder comes from. I can't now say NO lossless is allowed, but that's the way I remember it.

 

[mandrix]

Now with time to think, I believe two channel/stereo lpcm is allowed on DVD's. But I haven't substantiated that yet. It still gets down to whether you have a DVD-Audio capable player or just a DVD capable. player.
I found this:
What is PCM audio on DVD player?


Pulse-Code Modulation (PCM) and the Dolby Digital® technology refer to different types of digital audio recordings. PCM is the conventional method for converting analog audio into digital audio. The PCM audio recorded on DVD is a two-channel digital, stereo audio track.Apr 14, 2021

 

[paligap]

Now with time to think, I believe two channel/stereo lpcm is allowed on DVD's. But I haven't substantiated that yet. It still gets down to whether you have a DVD-Audio capable player or just a DVD capable. player.
I found this:
What is PCM audio on DVD player?


Pulse-Code Modulation (PCM) and the Dolby Digital® technology refer to different types of digital audio recordings. PCM is the conventional method for converting analog audio into digital audio. The PCM audio recorded on DVD is a two-channel digital, stereo audio track.Apr 14, 2021

I wondered whether the player in my car (2018 Genesis G80) is DVD-Audio capable, but when it played these two discs:

Better Than Ezra - How Does Your Garden Grow
Mr. Afternoon - The Golden Bonana

I thought it must be, because neither of these discs show an option for playing a lossy stream, unlike my other DVD-Audio discs. But when I checked the VIDEO_TS folder on these discs, this it what I found:

So, apparently these two discs do contain lossy streams in their VIDEO_TS folders, and the player in my car is not DVD-Audio capable. Oh, well, it's still a good sound system.

 

[kap'n krunch]

I wondered whether the player in my car (2018 Genesis G80) is DVD-Audio capable, but when it played these two discs:

Better Than Ezra - How Does Your Garden Grow
Mr. Afternoon - The Golden Bonana

I thought it must be, because neither of these discs show an option for playing a lossy stream, unlike my other DVD-Audio discs. But when I checked the VIDEO_TS folder on these discs, this it what I found:

View attachment 78169

So, apparently these two discs do contain lossy streams in their VIDEO_TS folders, and the player in my car is not DVD-Audio capable. Oh, well, it's still a good sound system.

AFAIK, a DVDA has to have a Dolby stream in the VIDEO_TS folder (unless it’s a 4.0 LPCM mix)…a lot of authoring geniuses have figured out a way to substitute the Dolby stream for a DTS one but then they are doing “magic”, don’ t ask me how they manage…I am sure one of our QQ brethren could clarify and enlighten us…

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

I wondered whether the player in my car (2018 Genesis G80) is DVD-Audio capable, but when it played these two discs:

Better Than Ezra - How Does Your Garden Grow
Mr. Afternoon - The Golden Bonana

I thought it must be, because neither of these discs show an option for playing a lossy stream, unlike my other DVD-Audio discs. But when I checked the VIDEO_TS folder on these discs, this it what I found:

View attachment 78169

So, apparently these two discs do contain lossy streams in their VIDEO_TS folders, and the player in my car is not DVD-Audio capable. Oh, well, it's still a good sound system.

Okay, but to get on topic, here's my understanding.

Both DVD-V and DVD-A can contain lossless. WHAT???
DVD-V's supported streams are:

• DTS up to a bitrate of 1536 kbps and up to 6.1 audio.
• AC3 (DD) up to a bitrate of 448 kbps and 5.1 audio.
• MP2 (for some reason) up to 912 kbps and 7.1 audio, though few discs use this.
• PCM up to 6144 kbps and 5.1. Well technically 7.1 but most players will kill you if ya try to put that.

This means that you CAN have lossless on the DVD-Video side, just not in 24-bit 5.1. 16-bit 5.1? Sure, but why would you do that?
AC3 is the only codec required to be decoded by DVD players, which is why it's most commonly used.

The VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders on a DVD-A can be authored separately from each other and not be linked by a menu item and still function as a full DVD-A. That's what I did. AFAIK, DVD-A has no restrictions on codecs on the VIDEO_TS side because, well, the specifications are for DVD-A.
Those who include DTS streams aren't doing any hacking here, they just author it in, plain and simple.
Also, I think DVD-A doesn't even require the VIDEO_TS folder to exist at all, but I could be wrong.

 

[mandrix]

Okay, but to get on topic, here's my understanding.

Both DVD-V and DVD-A can contain lossless. WHAT???
DVD-V's supported streams are:

• DTS up to a bitrate of 1536 kbps and up to 6.1 audio.
• AC3 (DD) up to a bitrate of 448 kbps and 5.1 audio.
• MP2 (for some reason) up to 912 kbps and 7.1 audio, though few discs use this.
• PCM up to 6144 kbps and 5.1. Well technically 7.1 but most players will kill you if ya try to put that.

This means that you CAN have lossless on the DVD-Video side, just not in 24-bit 5.1. 16-bit 5.1? Sure, but why would you do that?
AC3 is the only codec required to be decoded by DVD players, which is why it's most commonly used.

The VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders on a DVD-A can be authored separately from each other and not be linked by a menu item and still function as a full DVD-A. That's what I did. AFAIK, DVD-A has no restrictions on codecs on the VIDEO_TS side because, well, the specifications are for DVD-A.
Those who include DTS streams aren't doing any hacking here, they just author it in, plain and simple.
Also, I think DVD-A doesn't even require the VIDEO_TS folder to exist at all, but I could be wrong.

That's right, a DVDA does not require a VIDEO_TS folder, although an empty one is included for compatibility reasons. I have authored many DVDA's but have not included an authored VIDEO_TS folder in years just because I find it unnecessary for my needs. With the better DVDA authoring tools like Sonic I believe you can do some crossing between the DVDA and DVDV side but that's beyond my pay grade.

Are you sure more than 2 channel pcm is allowed in the DVD spec? Even if so it's not much good as with no data compression such as MLP (like DVDA can use) you can't fit much.

So what do you use to author a DVDA?
I'm still using discWelder Chrome, until Windows breaks it anyway.

Like Kap'n says, there are a few people here that author both DVDA and the VIDEO_TS folder and so include the DTS and AC3 streams for DVD only player compatibility and know more than I about the DVD side. Like I say I have not authored a DVD in years with DVDLab Pro, although there are other tools that's what I learned with and now mostly forgot. It's probably been at least a decade for me. I used to have a pretty good tutorial for getting up and running on creating a music DVD with essentially blank video but not sure I still have it. But it's no problem to include DTS.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

Are you sure more than 2 channel pcm is allowed in the DVD spec?

Yup, there are commercial discs that do this.

 

[mandrix]

Yup, there are commercial discs that do this.

OK, I'll take your word for it. On a DVDA disc, 16bit/44.1 /5.1 can get you about 127 minutes of playing time. Not sure how that works out on a DVDV.

I was going to "freshen up" on DVD to build a hybrid disc. But ultimately I decided not to. I mean anyone can rip flac lossless from a standard DVDA with no problems these days.

EDIT: AudioMuxer can build a DVD with slides, though I never tried it with pcm. Did it a lot with DTS years ago.

 

[himey]

The Alan Parsons Project - I Robot (HDAD Plus DVD-Audio) - Amazon.com Music

Here is one example of a DVD Video disc with a 24/96 stereo track that plays on standard DVD players. It also happens to have a stereo 24/192 DVD Audio track, on the other side, which will only play on DVD Audio players.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

Okay, but to get on topic, here's my understanding.

Both DVD-V and DVD-A can contain lossless. WHAT???
DVD-V's supported streams are:

• DTS up to a bitrate of 1536 kbps and up to 6.1 audio.
• AC3 (DD) up to a bitrate of 448 kbps and 5.1 audio.
• MP2 (for some reason) up to 912 kbps and 7.1 audio, though few discs use this.
• PCM up to 6144 kbps and 5.1. Well technically 7.1 but most players will kill you if ya try to put that.

This means that you CAN have lossless on the DVD-Video side, just not in 24-bit 5.1. 16-bit 5.1? Sure, but why would you do that?
AC3 is the only codec required to be decoded by DVD players, which is why it's most commonly used.

The VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders on a DVD-A can be authored separately from each other and not be linked by a menu item and still function as a full DVD-A. That's what I did. AFAIK, DVD-A has no restrictions on codecs on the VIDEO_TS side because, well, the specifications are for DVD-A.
Those who include DTS streams aren't doing any hacking here, they just author it in, plain and simple.
Also, I think DVD-A doesn't even require the VIDEO_TS folder to exist at all, but I could be wrong.

By the way, sorry for the bump, but there's a COMMERCIAL disc that has lossless surround on both the DVD-Audio (24/96) and DVD-Video (20/48) layers...with a runtime of 64 minutes.
https://www.discogs.com/release/217...onn-Marc-Soustrot-DebussyRavel-Orchesterwerke

 

[fredblue]

Al Green's Greatest Hits DVD-A has 5.1 LPCM rather than PPCM/MLP iirc

 

[mandrix]

Speaking to Mr. A's post, I don't doubt it one bit. That it's dated 2001 speaks of the disjointed metamorphosis the record industry was going through, or probably more to the point just someone trying to get music out in formats that would appeal to both the audiophile and those with basic DVD players.

Although I've authored probably several hundred DVDA discs, only a small portion had a working VIDEO_TS folder. Like I say, anyone can rip the lossless. I would say those darned old people can't , but since I am in that category having pushed a ways past 70 I'll refrain.

 

[mandrix]

Al Green's Greatest Hits DVD-A has 5.1 LPCM rather than PPCM/MLP iirc

Easy enough to check. Go for it!

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

Al Green's Greatest Hits DVD-A has 5.1 LPCM rather than PPCM/MLP iirc

The Al Green disc has LPCM on the DVD-Audio layer. We're talking about LPCM surround on the DVD-Video layer.

 

[fredblue]

The Al Green disc has LPCM on the DVD-Audio layer. We're talking about LPCM surround on the DVD-Video layer.

ah right, excuse the kerfuffle i'll get right on back to sleep then

 

[Eclectic]

I know for a fact that (some of) Tacet's classical discs were DVD-V's with lossless 4-channel audio. In particular, I know that this is true of Tacet 108 (Matthias Jung - Johann Sebastian Bach Die Motetten DBW 225-229). It's uncompressed LPCM 48kHz 24bit 4Ch.

 

[heegwon]

HI does anyone know if/why muxing to DVD causes quality loss?

I have a DVD-A that I want to back up. I've converted it to DVD-V so my PS5 can play the disc, using first DVD Audio Extractor then AudioMuxer.

I started by ripping multichannel audio from the VDIEO_TS folder as WAV files in DVDAE, then converted these to DTS files in AudioMuxer.

The ISO image that I burned after that is significantly less data and had noticeable audio quality loss. The ISO image is only about 1GB.

What have I done wrong?

For some context, I ripped the same disc using DVD ripping software, which gave me a single continuous DTS file (no CUE). The ISO for this one was over 3GB.