Which multi-channel RCA input card for a Mac?

[braver]

Greetings -- I want to record to a Mac off of an Akai GX630D-SS, which has 4 RCA outputs. Which hardware interface would you recommend? I found an Edirol UA-1EX new for $80 on Amazon with RCA inputs, but only 2 ones. I'd like something either USB or FireWire but in a reasonable price bracket.

 

[ndiamone]

A. Don't use unblanced (2-connector i.e RCA or TS phone plugs) if you can avoid it when taping into a computer. Go for the canon (XLR) or 3-connector (TRS) phone plugs and balanced lines for output.

B. Never use a soundcard to tape into the computer and never use anything with a USB port on it. Use instead an outboard professional import box with a Firewire port, possibly of the AJA or M Audio vareity and then record into the computer at the highest bitrate possible (usually 192 over 32) using a program like Adobe Audition, Diamond Cut Pro or Sound Forge.

Then do your de-hiss and other processing in high resolution before you downconvert to your output format.

I have an Adobe Audition tutorial that explains step by step how to do this for LP's, but the reel to reel directions are almost the same. Sound Forge and Diamond Cut Pro are similar enough so that you can use the AA directions and translate easily enough.
Go to the BSN (Both Sides Now) forum and do a search for Adobe Audition Tutorial and it will pop right up. My directions are so simple my grandmother can now do it, as well as for all her neighbors.

 

[braver]

Interesting! So you say I should feed of the phone jack? Then I need a 1/4" to -- what? -- cable to stick into the import box? Can you recommend the whole cable+box combo?

Also -- being a computer guy, I can't help doubting the USB vs FireWire thing. At this point it's already digital and shouldn't make a but of a difference, literally. Edirol does USB and I actually wonder if that $80 solution will be enough for reading my family tapes, which are mono anyways -- Akai picks up both forward and one reverse track, so I will do separation in the computer already. There's a great open-source tool called Audacity:

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

-- which did fine for me before, will try it again here. Available on PC and Mac, free of charge...

So now it's the question of the cable+import box!

 

[braver]

Hmm -- what do you guys think of this:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MACONYXSAT

-- will the four jacks per input 1 or 2 be suitable for the four quad inputs?

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Hmm -- what do you guys think of this:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MACONYXSAT

-- will the four jacks per input 1 or 2 be suitable for the four quad inputs?

According to post #3 at the harmony-central.com message board:

“The Onyx Satellite is a 2 in x 6 out interface, regardless of whether you’re using the dock/satellite combination or just the satellite.”

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1369614

So this unit would Not be good for Quad recording. Also, Adobe Audition, Diamond Cut Pro and Sound Forge are Not Mac programs. There are programs and external boxes for Mac that allow multi-track recording. Unfortunately, they’re more expensive than what you can get for Windows. As a Mac fan creating music on them since 1990, I find the lack of surround sound options for them disappointing. Also, if you ever decide to do SQ / QS computer script decoding, you need Adobe Audition.

It’s been awhile; let me see what’s out there in regards to multi-channel recording on the Mac.

 

[ndiamone]

A. Phone jack in the conventional stereo headphone jack sense Absolutely Not.
Quarter-inch TRS plugs each carry ONE balanced line apiece, not a stereo pair as in headphones.
Your equipment is either equipped with these types of outputs or it's not.
Consumer gear is not, and therefore has a consumer sound to it.
Pro gear is so equipped, and therefore a professional sound can be expected on transfer.

B. There's Digital and there's Digital. For a easy comparison, listen to the sound transfer quality off some bullshit plastic USB turntable for 49.95 and then listen to the sound quality off a decent turntable piped through a decent preamp/amp combo and sent through a decent A/D outboard converter.

C. For restoration of anything and recording to 192/32 USB is simply too slow, even USB 2.0 will just choke.

D. If you're going to use Audacity to ``restore'', hell, just hang a cassette mic above the reel to reel speaker and push Record in the computer.

E. Plasticassed Mackie bullshit or any one of it's thousands of Radio Shack or Guitar Center clones gives you exactly that: plasticassed sound and should be avoided.

F. on a Mac, you can run Adobe Audition or any of the others on Parallels with Windows or Boot Camp with Windows.

G. Pro Tools or Final Cut Pro for the Mac.

H. You can merge your two most recent posts into one, just go to the second one, click and copy the text, go to the first one, click Edit and paste the second text at the bottom of the first.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

F. on a Mac, you can run Adobe Audition or any of the others on Parallels with Windows or Boot Camp with Windows.

You can if you own a newer Mac that has an Intel chip. I'm not sure how well that works compared to a PC running only Windows, but if it does work, that would be nice to have both OS in one place.

 

[kap'n krunch]

This is the bottom line , for me at least.
Quad conversion and collecting is NOT cheap.
Even if you use "cracked" programs.
The thing is that you need quality equipment if you want your conversions to sound decent.
I personally record in 24/96 since I really can't appreciate the difference between that and 192 (and you save more disk space).

My main computer is a Mac. But I have to use my PC to do the conversions in Audition since I want to keep Windoze in the PC...

Unfortunately , as Old Quad Guy rightly pointed out, the options are ridiculous for Macs concerning quad SQ/QS decoding (read, NONE)-that is, until the decoding process is spelled out step by step and we can find a Mac program to do so -one that has a "Center Channel extractor" ...but maybe that's another thread.

As an entry point, I'd suggest a MOTU Firewire input module. They're not very expensive (find a used one) and , if you feel like upgrading your Mac/PC , it'll still work fine.
And , as with any process, watch out for the "physical" weak link- be it , stylus, turntable, TT preamp, cables...

 

[Key]

I'd like to throw my 2 cents in because my opinion differs a bit from the ones already voiced.

First I'll just recommend some companies that I was thinking of buying a card from.
Focusrite - Saffire (6inx8out) or Pro 10 - look for prices drops because the Pro 40 just came out
Presonus - Firebox (6x8) or FP10
Mackie - I really wouldn't go with anything under the 400f if you are doing surround
I got my 400f for $450. If you can find one at that low of a price I would say snatch it
because if you don't like it you can always sell it and maybe make a profit. I really
don't understand ndiamone's comment comparing Mackie to radioshack. Mackie is
a trusted company for Professionals and has been for many many years. Maybe
he was thinking of Behringer?

I'd also disagree with the comment about unbalanced vs balanced. I have been performing
some frequency response tests on my balanced cards and I have to relluctantly admit
that the frequency response is more accurate on these cards in unbalanced operation than
in balanced. Also you have to consider that Unbalanced and Balanced gear are not 100%
compatible and most likely the gear he will be using is unbalanced. There are plenty of cards
that do both unbalanced and balanced so for these I guess infacing gear isn't as much of a
consideration. But some of the lower end cards require you to do connector switches to go
from balanced to unbalanced.

Anyway got work to do, but some others to consider if you are on a budget is M-Audio Delta series.
Also Echo Layla or Audiofire 8 are decent cards. The delta series and the Layla are PCI based though
so no laptop support.

One thing I did before I bought my card that I am happy I did was to go to there website and see
how easy it was to get and install an updated driver/graphic interface. Also once you install the
graphic interface take a look at how it works and how you can route the signals. A lot of these
software mixers can be very confusing to someone not familiar with using a mixing board.

 

[braver]

Well, it turns out my family tapes are mono, not even stereo, so the first thing I need is simply an import ADC. So that would be a good thing to start off with. Given there're many ones, what do you think of things like

http://www.amazon.com/Apogee-Duet-FireWire-Interface/dp/B000XANK90

 

[braver]

Also -- in terms of the balanced vs unbalanced inputs. The Akai has 4 RCA outputs, one per channel, and the holes for DINs are empty on mine. There's also the phone jacks on the front. When I see XLR or TRS, what does it mean here -- I see big sockets on those boxes, so they're inputs, right? Should I have an RCA-this-big-socket-plug cable from the Akai, or I don't win anything and would be fine just having RCA-to-RCA cables to RCA inputs on the box?

 

[Old Quad Guy]

I I really don't understand ndiamone's comment comparing Mackie to radioshack. Mackie is a trusted company for Professionals and has been for many many years. Maybe he was thinking of Behringer?

I Agree. I’ve owned a 16 track Mackie board since the mid 1990’s with fine results. I’m sure there are better boards out there, but Mackie is certainly a trusted company for Professionals with great tech support.

Well, it turns out my family tapes are mono, not even stereo, so the first thing I need is simply an import ADC. So that would be a good thing to start off with. Given there're many ones, what do you think of things like http://www.amazon.com/Apogee-Duet-FireWire-Interface/dp/B000XANK90

I’m not sure about that box, a bit pricey for just 2 channel recording. Heck, if you’re just backing up old Mono family recordings you might just use the built-in Stereo recording jack in the back of the Mac. While not state of the art high end, I’ve had real good results recording this way, at least on a CD level. Never tried them at higher bit rate / kHz. There are also many free shareware recording programs made for the Mac by 3rd parties going back to OS 9 or you could use Garageband to record.

In regards to buying soundcards or external boxes for the Mac for Hi-Rez recording, I would do my homework and research the options. For years I’ve looked at Pro Tools devices for the Mac, those are on the Professional level but a bit too pricey.

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=399

Because of a lack of support for surround on the Mac, it’s almost cheaper to just buy a new Windows tower and external box or soundcard (provided you get the right one).

 

[Key]

Well if you don't have the need to record all 4 tracks at once that opens up your possibilities. Almost to a point where it's impossible to choose.
That original Mackie you had will probably do just as good of a job as anything in the lowerend. There are other weird options like Black Lion Audio's
A/D converter with spidif and AES out.

But really if I had that Akai and only had a soundcard that could do stereo, it would drive me nuts personally. I would eventually want to inerface
the thing with the computer for something. And who knows maybe you will come across some quad reel gem at a yard sale and can transfer it for us

I am having a hard time giving solid recommendations as I haven't used a mac for years. I will say that the surround sound support on Vista is nothing
to write home about so I doubt either have an advantage one way or the other. I usually have to switch over to XP if I want to use any consumer
surround formats. Maybe it is just a codec issue and I haven't gotten it sorted out.

And well balanced with unbalanced. I will give you the easy answer first. Go down to radioshack, or if you want something quality order it online or go to mom and pop electronics store (think switchcraft, neutrik, canare) and get 4 RCA > 1/4" mono adapters. You can also do the inverse and not hear a difference which would be 1/4" (TS or TRS which ever you have the option of, if you can use both I recommend TS actually) to RCA adapter with a 1/4" TS or TRS cable.

The real answer when interfacing unbalanced and balanced gear is that they are not compatible. If you are being really picky anyway. But if you have to interface them then the negative lead should be either unconnected or terminated at the shield. This is opposed to the way a lot of people will teach you (the way I was taught actually) which is to tie the negative lead to ground.

Also don't get confused about TRS. For instance a headphone jack TRS is a stereo unbalanced signal but a line level or a microphone TRS jack will most likely be mono balanced. Like the headphone jack on the front of you reel to reel is stereo but the same type of jack on a soundcard will be mono.

So basically three options I recommend for you are
Akai>RCAto1/4"TS cable>soundcard
Akai>RCA(male)to1/4"TS(female) adapter>1/4" cable>soundcard
Akai>RCA cable>RCA(female) to1/4"TS(male) adapter>soundcard

Quasi balanced would be
Akai>RCA (negative lead unconnected) to 1/4" TRS> balanced soundcard

 

[ndiamone]

I really don't understand ndiamone's comment comparing Mackie to radioshack. Mackie is a trusted company for Professionals and has been for many many years. Maybe he was thinking of Behringer?

Them too, and Harris, and Peavey and every other kind of Guitar Center clone which got bought by schools, churches and demo-recording studios who couldn't afford ``real'' gear but still needed work done.

When I was around the semipro audio world for pay not that many years ago, Mackies, especially the 1202's and 1404's are ALLLLLLL over the semipro world, along with their Tascam 38 and Fostex E-8 analog tape cousins, and or whatever's passing for cheap digital gear these days.

Guys couldn't WAIT to escape out of there into the world of Neve and Trident consoles and Scully and (some) MCI tape decks.

The real answer when interfacing unbalanced and balanced gear is that they are not compatible. If you are being really picky anyway. But if you have to interface them then the negative lead should be either unconnected or terminated at the shield. This is opposed to the way a lot of people will teach you (the way I was taught actually) which is to tie the negative lead to ground.

Also don't get confused about TRS. For instance a headphone jack TRS is a stereo unbalanced signal but a line level or a microphone TRS jack will most likely be mono balanced. Like the headphone jack on the front of you reel to reel is stereo but the same type of jack on a soundcard will be mono.

Guys. Slow down. It's a kid. A kid with no engineering degree. Don't scare him off.

Glossary:

TS= Tip-Sleeve a-k-a mono quarter inch (or eighth-inch) headset plug, used for unbalanced lines.
TRS= Tip-Ring-Sleeve, looks like a stereo headset plug, quarter inch or eighth inch and carries one balanced line.
Ground wire= the X in the XLR (a-k-a Cannon Pro Audio/Balanced Line Plug), the others being Line and Return.

If you are going to try and bridge balanced and unblanced lines, follow the directions in the post above, except make sure one end of your cord is wired with a BAL/UN.
To improve quality, BAL/UN plugs have a little bitty inline impedance matcher to match the high Z of the RCA or quarter inch plug with the low Z of the balanced line.
Sometimes you get better quality with bridged lines, sometimes not.

 

[braver]

With all due respect, my undergrad degree was in physics, and now I'm nearing a PhD in Computer Science and Engineering. So I'm quite capable of understanding the audio slang into the underlying physics. Furthermore, I'll examine all claims about things plastic being inferior to metal ones, or USB 2.0 to FireWire, very critically. For now my goals are mono preservation, but as I'm a quad fan for a long time with SACD, I may leverage it further. I guess what I need next is a good writeup about XLR and TRS jacks, and whether getting an import box with those females and RCA->those males cables will buy me anything compared to RCA boxes and RCA->RCA cables. What I also dislike is gold-plated stuff with anti-vibration legs for $100 a piece, and those blue German rubber rugs claiming to airlift your LPs into some kind of nirvana for mere EUR 100 or so. I'd rather have a very good reason to upgrade, and start small as needed.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

I love Mac, but it might be good if we had a cost comparison between Mac / Windows systems in regard to suround sound recording gear that’s going to give us the best quality recordings for a reasonable price. What is the minimum needed? And what constitutes good gear?

 

[Key]

I find the whole stigma people like to throw on cheaper gear/software/interfaces etc.. to be really funny a lot of the time.
I have heard some music coming out of Pro Tools HD rigs that just sounded like complete ass to me and then heard just
a guy in his apartment with Fruity Loops and a radioshack mic and have it sound much much more musical and listenable.
It's all in how you use the gear imho. And I really think there are some "monster killers" in terms of cheap entry level
gear out on the market. Almost every piece of gear I own can be had at around $500 but will have many reviews from
pros saying they sound every bit as good if not better than the $2,000 counterparts.

I think first when recording that proper gain staging and recording practices will get you far. Basically making sure not
to clip anything in the signal chain while at the same time not undersaturating the signal chain - not to loud but not too
soft. Also getting a clean power supply will improve the sound quality of most any piece of gear you can get.

Most people who do recording tend to stick with sigma delta A/D D/A converters. I think most USB interfaces would use
Codec A/D D/A converters instead which some people say don't stack up soundwise. I am not so sure this is set in stone
looking at some of the newer Lexicon USB interfaces that do 96kHz. I will say that if you are usinga microphone that a
USB bus power supply is not the best way to power a mic and that is the main reason I wouldavoid USB and not because
there is no way to make them sound good.

It's hard to say what constitutes good recording gear. I try to go for transparency and frequency response first,
phase linearity second, and signal to noise ratio last. But it's not always clear as to how these different cards
actually perform with different impedance bridging and real world apps. I ran searches for people who had used
RightMark Audio Analyzer to test the soundcards combined Input/Output frequency response. This can be a decent
indication of how transparent the device will perform. But these are of course synthetic benchmarks by nature
and the whole idea of converting an analog signal to a digital one is very abstract and subjective.

In terms of Mac vs Windows and the price factor. I think in reality - what they can't advertise on TV - PCs are much
much cheaper. Mainly because you can steal virtually all of the software available for the PC easily. It may still be
cheaper even if you run everything legit and purchase all of your software. There are much more open source
and DIY options for PC as well - I have made my own surround sound plugins easily for the PC. But again maybe this
is a downfall - too many choices, distractions, and pitfalls (plugins that don't sound very good).

 

[ndiamone]

I have heard some music coming out of Pro Tools HD rigs that just sounded like complete ass to me and then heard just
a guy in his apartment with Fruity Loops and a radioshack mic and have it sound much much more musical and listenable.

/me prefers Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

It's all in how you use the gear imho. And I really think there are some "monster killers" in terms of cheap entry level
gear out on the market.

Might be, but you ain't never going to get a plastic Radio Shack U-47 mic, or a McIntosh all tube power amp or Gotham Audio all tube preamp or a Scully 280 analog tape deck etc etc etc.

It's hard to say what constitutes good recording gear. I try to go for transparency and frequency response first,
phase linearity second, and signal to noise ratio last. But it's not always clear as to how these different cards actually perform with different impedance bridging and real world apps.

Which just proves my other point: just because the physics and the math lines up don't necessarily mean you're going to like the result you get. How many times have we seen perfect math and physics on something that ends up looking and our sounding like trash?

In terms of Mac vs Windows and the price factor. I think in reality - what they can't advertise on TV - PCs are much much cheaper. Mainly because you can steal virtually all of the software available for the PC easily. It may still be cheaper even if you run everything legit and purchase all of your software.

There are much more open source and DIY options for PC as well - I have made my own surround sound plugins easily for the PC. But again maybe this
is a downfall - too many choices, distractions, and pitfalls (plugins that don't sound very good).

Uh-huh.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Uh-huh.

Guys. Slow down. It's a kid. A kid with no engineering degree. Don't scare him off.

Let’s please keep it friendly here. Comments like those above are not going to win you any friends or much respect.

We’re here to make friends and learn from each other.

 

[Key]

/me prefers Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

Might be, but you ain't never going to get a plastic Radio Shack U-47 mic, or a McIntosh all tube power amp or Gotham Audio all tube preamp or a Scully 280 analog tape deck etc etc etc.

/Key prefers Molder.