What settings to choose on an A/V receiver for LPCM 4.0? Blu-ray-Audio

[Surroundjediguitarlord]

Hi guys,

I have produced a Blu-ray-Audio in 4.0 LPCM 24bit/96kHz, which I can play back fine on my Frankenstein system, but haven't been able to play back in surround on any other A/V receiver yet.

I have tried a high-end Arcam surround receiver, as well as some Yamaha/Onkyo..., they always defaulted to 96kHz stereo, even though the audio track is clearly 4.0.

I authored the disc with Cirlinca HD-Audio Solo Ultra. I downmixed to 5.1 mono files in Adobe Encore, and renamed the front stereo and L/F surround tracks for Cirlinca.

Since this site is called Quadraphonic, I hope you can answer how to get a 4.0 LPCM audio track to play back perfecly on an A/V receiver.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Robert van Diggele]

He SJGL, nice to see members producing their own surround content. I am not too familiar with disc authoring, but would it help to have an empty center and LFE in your files? Which gives you a 5.1 file which plays the front and rear channels.

If you want to share one of your current files, I can try on my system, via NAS and prrhaps burn to bd.

I do not have an a/v receiver, but separate components, so I cannot reproduce your set up, but still see if it works here.

 

[Surroundjediguitarlord]

He SJGL, nice to see members producing their own surround content. I am not too familiar with disc authoring, but would it help to have an empty center and LFE in your files? Which gives you a 5.1 file which plays the front and rear channels.

If you want to share one of your current files, I can try on my system, via NAS and prrhaps burn to bd.

I do not have an a/v receiver, but separate components, so I cannot reproduce your set up, but still see if it works here.

Thanks for your reply and kind words.

I have already tried using the empty LFE and Centre channels to have 5.1, but then it sounded very different on my system. Perhaps it would help if I created some empty files for Adobe Encore first, so it would think that there was actually content?

Could you tell me more about your separate components, please?

I myself have an Oppo-BDP 83SE player connected to an Exposure Integrated Stereo Amp 3010S2 for the front channels, and two active JBL 305 Professional Series connected to the analogue outputs of the Oppo, calibrated with a SPL meter and the WOW calibration disc.

I have no clue how I could send you the files to try for yourself.

 

[alk3997]

Let me try to give you an answer (may be multiple answers) since I've done some Blu-Ray authoring. I use 5.1-channel LPCM and DTS-HD Master Audio for my discs (both 2D and 3D). In all cases, when the disc is authored, the authoring program has to look at the audio stream being added and determine what format the stream has. In other words it has to be able to tell that the disc is a 2.0 or a 4.0 or a 5.1 disc and at what sampling rate (96-kHz in your case) and what bit length (24-bits in your case). This information then gets written onto the disc and it's used by 1) the player to determine what audio to send out, 2) based on the player's options what metadata to send over the HDMI link (assuming you aren't using analog outputs) and then 3) what output formats are available on the A/V receiver which the user can then select for final output.

It's a fairly complicated series of checks that have to occur properly for your disc to output 4.0. Normally all of this is automatic so the user doesn't have to think about it. However, when you author a disc, you have to make sure each is working correctly.

If it were me, I'd start with a the more-common 5.1-channel audio format and leave the Center and LFE blank. You can try not inputting a Center or LFE track into Cirlinca but that may produce unexpected results. If that doesn't work, try creating a blank (muted) mono audio file that is the exact same length and format as your front L/R and surround L/R files. Then use that file for the Center and LFE tracks. Create your disc and you should have a 5.1-channel output. A program like Goldwave is a cheap but effective program for creating mono files to multiple specs - basically take one of your mono files, rename it, "mute the track" and then save it under the new name. That way you are guaranteed to have the same length blank file as the actual audio files.

You can doublecheck your work by demuxing the Blu-Ray disc you created. A free program such as TSMuxer will take your Blu-Ray disc files and show you what streams and formats are used on the disc. If that confirms a 5.1-channel disc (or 4.0-channel disc) then at least your authoring is good enough for the stream information to be recognized.

If your authoring still doesn't work then try a commercial 5.1-channel LPCM (not Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio) disc. If that works but your 5.1-channel creation won't then you have a disc authoring problem. As much as I enjoyed playing with the Cirlinca programs years ago (in their DVD-Audio days), they basically create their authoring by reverse engineering discs. It keeps prices down but also means that some of the subtleties of the disc format may have been lost if they haven't run across it before. Luckily, if it's the same person running the company as before, he is very very responsive to questions. But, remember Cirlinca is not a professional authoring system and is not guaranteed to produce compatible discs in all valid formats. Professional authoring programs will run thousands to tens-of-thousands of dollars.

If, however, the 5.1-channel LPCM commercial disc also doesn't work, then you have either a player setting or an A/V receiver setting that is wrong. Before you try your disc on a different system, I'd always try a commercial 5.1-channel LPCM audio disc to make sure the system is setup properly for surround. If your Oppo successfully reports that it sees a 4.0-channel disc, then at least your Oppo recognizes the disc format but that doesn't mean other companies' players will. Different players respond differently to discs that aren't quite to spec. The Oppo is one of the most tolerant players to authoring errors.

If 5.1-channel works for your authoring then it's a matter of trying to figure out why 4.0-channel doesn't work. If the player, such as an Oppo, is showing 4.0 LPCM but the receiver just shows stereo then one of two things is likely happening. The first is that for a 4.0 stream, the player is automatically downmixing to stereo. Check the player menu settings to see if the downlink option is enabled and remember that the Oppo can have different output formats on the different outputs (analog and HDMIs). The second option is that the A/V receiver is seeing the 4.0-channel input and either has an option enabled to downmix to stereo or doesn't know how to handle 4.0-channel inputs. If the latter is the case, then you may be stuck with sending a 5.1-channel stream with a blank center and LFE, for compatibility reasons.

Good luck. You are trying to use a fairly uncommon format so it could be authoring, player or A/V receiver causing the problem. The key is to trace each part of the link and see if you can prove that part is working correctly before moving onto the next part. I always appreciate my Denon's display for checking formats since it tells me what the input format is and what format it's sending out. It makes troubleshooting much easier for cases like this.

One other thought is that you should probably try your Oppo with the A/V receivers since that would narrow any problem down to the A/V receiver since the Oppo is known to output correctly. Again, remember that even though you have the Oppo's analog outputs configured for multichannel, that doesn't mean the HDMI outputs are configured for multichannel.

Andy

P.S. Even though the forum name has Quad in it, we discuss a lot of 5.1-channel discs as well. BTW, the 4.0-channel SACDs that have recently been released are all coded in 5.0-channel because it maintains compatibility with all A/V receivers (some of whom may not be programmed to accept 4.0). The SACD spec allows up to 6-channels, so 4.0 SACD is possible but not every player or A/V receiver may understand what to do with a 4.0-channel stream.

 

[Surroundjediguitarlord]

Thank you so much, alk3997, for your incredibly helpful post.

I agree with you that it's probably best to have at least a 5.0 mix with a dead channel, since that would cause less confusion.

I have just checked my Music Fidelity Mahavishnu Orchestra-Birds of Fire 4.0 SACD, and it also says 5.0, so it really seems to be the norm.

Now, do you think it would suffice if I just took a track in Adobe Encore, duplicated (of the same song, of course) and then muted it, and assign it to the centre, and perhaps even the LFE channel, or would it be any different if I downmixed a muted track of each of the songs in Cubase, and then import them into Adobe Encore to assign them their respective channel(s) there, and do the downmix then?

It would be great to know, as it would take a fair amount of time to do it. Also, I guess you agree that doing 5.1 would better the chances in terms of compatibility, don't you? Or is 5.0 quite enough?

(My Oppo, and also the other players all see it as a 4.0 LPCM track under Audio Track with the remote, but somwhere down the line it gets downmixed to stereo. My hunch is that it's the A/V receiver.
All other BDs I played back on it worked fine: LPCM 5.1, DTS-HD MA 5.1 and Dolby TrueHD, so it must be the odd number of channels, hence I will try once more to add 1 or 2 extra channels to make it compatible.

Thanks again for your superb post.

 

[alk3997]

I think the first thing I would do is to make a 5.1-channel disc with the Center and LFE an audio file with muted audio (as I mentioned above). Make sure the muted Center and LFE are the exact same length as the corner audio files. If that plays OK, then you've taken a big step towards saying that your authoring chain is working. If that doesn't play OK, then I'd start to suspect an authoring problem.

Once I had 5.1-channel working, then try 5.0.

The key is to start with a format that you know should work and then start trying to get back to 4.0 (going through 5.0). Basically change one variable at a time and see the results. Assuming you can get 5.1-channel working then the problem becomes much easier since you can always go back to 5.1 if other formats don't work.

Andy

 

[Surroundjediguitarlord]

Thanks again. I see. However, do you recommend I simply duplicate an existing mono track, say the front left one, mute it, and assign it to the centre and LFE channels, or make another Cubase file from the source? (Yes, always a track from the actual song, that is the same length as the song.)

I am going to try it later today.

Many thanks, mate,

Ali

 

[alk3997]

I'd duplicate a mono track. Rename it, mute the audio and save under the new name. Then use that newly named file as input to Cirlinca for C and LFE. Should be simpler that way for future changes to your source material.

Andy

 

[Robert van Diggele]

Thanks for your reply and kind words.

I have already tried using the empty LFE and Centre channels to have 5.1, but then it sounded very different on my system. Perhaps it would help if I created some empty files for Adobe Encore first, so it would think that there was actually content?

Could you tell me more about your separate components, please?

I myself have an Oppo-BDP 83SE player connected to an Exposure Integrated Stereo Amp 3010S2 for the front channels, and two active JBL 305 Professional Series connected to the analogue outputs of the Oppo, calibrated with a SPL meter and the WOW calibration disc.

I have no clue how I could send you the files to try for yourself.

my set up is an Oppo 105EU connected via analogue out to an Atoll PR5.1 which is conncted to an Atoll AV500 power amp. My music nowadays is mostly flac stored on the NAS. The Oppo decodes to analogue.

Files could be send using Dropbox for example. When you have an accoutn, you store the file in your Dropbox and send me a link. I can copy the file to my computer. But it seems you will be able to sort it out with the great help from Andy.

Of course it is no problem for me to test one of your files.

 

[Surroundjediguitarlord]

Thanks, mate. I come with very interesting findings. To me anyways.:

No matter what I tried, I always had a very quiet front/center output when playing back my 4.0 BD in 5.1.
Now, I have found out why: In my Oppo, the surround setup under Audio Processing-Speaker Configuration has always been FL/FR and SL/SR without a Center channel, since I don't have one. And it has worked flawlessly so far.

However, just out of curiousity I changed the setting and added a Center channel in Speaker Configuration, and voila, I had the exact same sound as I get it when I play back my 4.0 BD without a Center channel.

I then put in a regular BD again with a 5.1 DTS-HD MA track (Big Bang Theory, as it has mostly dialogue, and with the center channel employed in the speaker configuration setup, the dialogue is way more quiet, while without it, it's perfect.
It's strikes me as odd, that I'd have to change the settings just for my BD to get the right amount of volume, when normally there isn't a problem at all. What does that mean? And most importantly: How can I remedy that?

Now to the procedure:

I first opened the Cubase project of the song I wanted to do the testing with, muted the stereo output channel, and made a downmix into two mono files, which I then imported into Adobe Encore, and without muting, since there is no sound to begin with, assigned those to the Center Mono only, and LFE mono only channels. After which I created two downmixes: One with 6 mono files, and one interleaved file containing all 5.1 channels.
I then changed the names of the mono files according to Cirlinca's requirements, and opened Cirlinca, where I put the interleaved file, which was immediately recognised as 6 channels, and one of the 6 mono files, and assigned 6 channels to it.
(Interestingly, doing 5.0 doesn't seem to be accepted. I threw away the LFE channel of the six mono files, but that didn't help either. It just won't do 5.0, even though it's an option. Weird, especially since 4.0 isn't a problem.)

I burned them onto a RE-BD, and gave it a spin. It worked in both ways with the Center Channel activated in the Speaker Configuration. The LFE channel doesn't appear to make a difference. It works both ways (On/Off).

After having used new Cubase files successfully, I figured I should give the Adobe Encore mono files a shot, and duplicated + muted two mono files, assigned them to their respective channels, and got the same results, which brings me to the conclusion that it was the center channel in the Speaker Configuration setup all along.

Now, I still don't know what this sounds like on a regular 5.1 setup (A/V receiver), nor do I understand why it only works this way: Shouldn't the 5.1 downmix deal with it automatically, just like with other movies. The only difference is that there isn't any audio in the Center to begin with, so why does my Mahavishnu SACD not have the same problem?

To summarize:

5.1 mixes of the 4.0 mixes with a dead Center and LFE channel works now, but only if I change to 5.0 in my Speaker Configuration setup on my Oppo player.
Whether I add two muted mono tracks from duplicates in Adobe Encore, or make a downmix of the Stereo Out in Cubase, which are then imported into Adobe Encore, doesn't seem to make a difference.
Only the Center channel changes the volume level, whereas the LFE doesn't affect anything (or not that I had noticed).
I can't do 5.0 in Cirlinca, although it's officially an option given.
There is no difference in one 6 channel track, or 6 mono tracks, the former being the way to go for simplicity sake.
I have yet to hear it on a 5.1 system.

What do you guys think?

Any ideas?

 

[Robert van Diggele]

What the Oppo does is the following.
When you have a speaker configuration in the Oppo without a center speaker, any center channel content on a dvd or bd will be redirected to the FL/FR channels. That is why the Big Bang Theory dialogue is at normal levels in your 4.0 speaker configuration, but not in your 5.0/5.1 configuration. In the latter the Oppo assumes that there is a center speaker, so no content is redirected. In ypur case, you do not have an actual speaker channel, so any dialogue you hear is the dialogue already mixed into the FL/FR by the mixing engineer. Mostly this is done at a lower level than the center channel.

This does not answer your question about authoring though.

 

[Surroundjediguitarlord]

Thanks for your swift response. I understand all that. However, what I don't comprehend is why I should have to turn on the center channel for a 4.0 mix to be played back properly? There is no content in the center channel anyways, so why doesn't it work without having it engaged?

 

[alk3997]

It's actually the difference between input and output causing what you are hearing. If you input a 4.0 signal and setup the Oppo to output in 4.0, then you have a 1:1 match. If you have a 5.1 input and you setup the Oppo for 5.1-channel output then you have a 1:1 match and everything is going to the intended speaker.

When you have a 5.1 channel input going to a 4.0 Oppo output, then the front left channel gets the left input plus 1/2 of the center channel since there is no center channel to output to. The right channel gets the right input plus 1/2 the center channel input. Since your center input is nothing, you are adding nothing but the system has to make sure that digital overmodulation doesn't occur had you actually had a full center channel signal. So the Oppo lowers the levels to allow 5.1-channels to live with 4 outputs.

4.0 inputs into 5.1 outputs would mean that the left and right inputs are spread across the 3 front channel outputs. If you have no center speaker, then the center channel output, which is part of the front L/R input is lost.

Remember what you are setting with the Oppo is the output configuration. The input configuration is not changed.

Andy

 

[Surroundjediguitarlord]

Thanks once again. How do I remedy this problem though? I don't want to have to change anything on the Oppo, just for my BD. Is there a way to work around this issue?
What do you suggest I do?

I mean, most people with an A/V receiver would get to hear it as intended this way, right? Since most people have either a 2.0 or 5.1 setup, I mean. They wouldn't have to change anything, correct?

I really appreciate your help btw..

Ali

 

[Robert van Diggele]

Slightly off topic question, will you release your quad mix in one form or another?

 

[alk3997]

Yours is a very unusual setup. Most people would have a 5.1 Channel system with 6 speakers.hooked-up an AVR rather than an amp and two powered speakers. So, making a 5.1-channel disc with a muted C and LFE iis likely your best option. Besides I don't think Cirlinca is going to give you any other options that actually work on all systems.

For your setup to be compatible with your 5.1-channel disc (that has 4 active channels) and not have to change anything on the Oppo versus a true 5.1-channel disc should require nothing more than turning up the volume a bit more while leaving the Oppo in 4.0.

Andy

 

[Surroundjediguitarlord]

Slightly off topic question, will you release your quad mix in one form or another?

Well, not officially, just privately really, since few people know my music. I have had 30 copies made. Luckily the discs themselves are still blank, so I can sort this out first.
I have already sold a bunch, but I can easily give them the updated version once it's done. It's probably not allowed to post one's youtube channel link here, so I'll refrain from doing so, unless told otherwise.
Why?

 

[Robert van Diggele]

I was just curious what type of music you make and which mix style you have. Of course you can promote yourself on QQ just create a new topic with info on your album and youtube channel.

 

[Surroundjediguitarlord]

Yours is a very unusual setup. Most people would have a 5.1 Channel system with 6 speakers.hooked-up an AVR rather than an amp and two powered speakers. So, making a 5.1-channel disc with a muted C and LFE iis likely your best option. Besides I don't think Cirlinca is going to give you any other options that actually work on all systems.

For your setup to be compatible with your 5.1-channel disc (that has 4 active channels) and not have to change anything on the Oppo versus a true 5.1-channel disc should require nothing more than turning up the volume a bit more while leaving the Oppo in 4.0.

Andy

It is indeed. I don't know of anyone who has one.
If that's my best option, I'll simply have my own custom 4.0 mix, which plays back perfectly on my system, as well as a 5.1 (with 4.0 active channels) in case I decide to upgrade in the future.

You have been such a big help.

I'll do a 5.1 BD now, and check it out on a 5.1 setup with a regular A/V receiver.

What I still don't understand is why my Mahavishnu SACD works perfectly, despite being 5.0 with a dead center channel, if the specs are to be believed?
Also, while doing some testing earlier today, I found out that Joe Bonamassa's Muddy Wolf at Red Rocks BD in 5.1 DTS-HD MA didn't cause any change in volume of the front speakers while turning the center channel on/off in the Speaker Configuration setup menu during the songs. How can we explain that?

 

[Surroundjediguitarlord]

I was just curious what type of music you make and which mix style you have. Of course you can promote yourself on QQ just create a new topic with info on your album and youtube channel.

Well then: Here are the main songs of the BD, but these are older remixes, before I remixed them again, and again. Now, the guitars are much creamier, and the mix is more balanced, etc..: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL4TT93Igd4
This is the direct link to my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCab1qcJCufktCgkqZSDjOxw

The surround mixes are very discrete:
The guitar is usually in the center speaker, but does pan to the left/right as well. There are even 360 degree guitar runs, but I think it's done musically.
The piano is mostly in the surround channel.
The drums are split up.
Bass is in the front speakers. Mostly center.
Since every song is so different, so are the mixes.
It's more akin to The Who's Quadrophenia, Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon, or Diana Krall's SACD's, except for Love Scenes, which has very little surround activity going on.
I hope that helps.

Most people don't like discrete mixes much, right?
How about you?