And then there's that damn center channel...

[Jim the Oldbie]

Don't get me stahted. Oops, too late.

Along with the LFE channel, I've also given up on the center channel for the time being. This was actually precipitated by a hardware failure; I lost a channel in one of the power amps, so I just rerouted the center to left & right at -3 dB to each, and have been listening that way for some time now.

It's not that I'm totally fed up with the center channel or the way it's used, as some seem to be. It's just that I could never get mine to sound the way I wanted. Even with matching speakers, there are still some seemingly insurmountable obstacles to getting the sound to blend properly with the rest of the front stage.

First and foremost is the listening axis - zero degrees with the center, 30 or so for L & R. Even with good speakers, this is a non-trivial difference in sound, and seems pretty tricky to properly compensate for, to me at least. A simple tweeter level tweak, for example, doesn't really get you there.

Next is room position. Ideally, the L & R speakers occupy similar, opposing spaces in the room geometry, and so tend to have the same "room sound." Not so the center, standing alone in its no-man's land of unique standing wave patterns. This one seems a bit more deal-able with approaches like room treatment etc, but it's definitely a thing to be dealt with.

Let's see, what else... In a home theater setup, the center speaker usually needs to me positioned lower than ideal in order to clear most (non-perforated) screen types,* although this one can probably be filed under "room position" above. I have actually thought about a motorized speaker stand that would raise the center speaker to match L & R for music-only listening! One of these days I'll get around to trying that, although the first step is to fix that damn power amp...

The alternative of course is the phantom center channel. I like it because it sounds just like the left & right channels! (Gee, I wonder why that is?? ) And since my butt is pretty much always parked in the sweet spot, I just can't get too excited about restoring that center speaker any time soon. If I do, it'll be mainly out of curiosity for some ideas I've had lately, like the goofy speaker stand above. I also want to try a temporary modification to my center speaker using 2 tweeters (padded down of course), each aimed 30° off-axis. What the hell... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I know Kal among others has expressed a "yes" vote for the center channel. I'm interested in any non-violent opposing viewpoints. What do you say, sirs/madams?


* 'Specially my BIG HUNDRED-AND-SIX INCHER, yeee hawww!!!! <ahem> (Sorry, heh.)

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Neither the size nor the position of the screen is of any concern to me because my main multichannel system does not have one. This means that I can accommodate a full-size center speaker identical to my L/R speakers and not an inherently compromised, horizontally-arrayed "dedicated" center speaker. That provides for the recreation of center images with greater clarity and stability and with greater tonal accuracy due to orientation of the source with respect to the head and ears (HRTF).

I think that you are dealing with a different context than I am because of your need to accommodate your "BIG HUNDRED-AND-SIX INCHER, yeee hawww!!!! <ahem> ."

 

[Jim the Oldbie]

...I think that you are dealing with a different context than I am because of your need to accommodate your "BIG HUNDRED-AND-SIX INCHER, yeee hawww!!!! <ahem> ."

What can I say? I haven't had it very long - we're still on our honeymoon.

 

[wavelength]

I also have a full-size center speaker identical to my L/R speakers. I like the idea of each channel having its own speaker vs mixing 2 channels into the same speaker. It just seems to me that this allows for better fidelity of overall sound reproduction.

 

[Wunlow]

I luv my damn center channel, and like the others, have a full range center speaker that is identical to my left and right front speakers.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

This means that I can accommodate a full-size center speaker identical to my L/R speakers and not an inherently compromised, horizontally-arrayed "dedicated" center speaker.

I also have a full-size center speaker identical to my L/R speakers.

I luv my damn center channel, and like the others, have a full range center speaker that is identical to my left and right front speakers.

Are we seeing a pattern here?

 

[Jim the Oldbie]

Well yeah, although that's not really what I was going for either way...

 

[perzon57]

I don't think you need floor standers to get good center channel sound.I use a big laying center from Tannoy with a DC element.The tweeter sits in the middle of the 7 inch woofer.In addition it has two passive 7 inch woofers.It weighs more than my floor standing LR speakers.

 

[user 4725]

I had a centre speaker but decided some years ago to abandon it. The original reason was quite dull - due to the setup I had (TV on a stand on a unit) the speaker slightly obscured the bottom of the screen so I removed it and really couldn't tell much difference. Now I have my TV mounted on a wall with hidden cables, a centre speaker isn't really practical anyway. My AV receiver has a sort of virtual centre channel which I can boost if dialogue is difficult to hear, an increasing problem with films and TV I'm finding. (Either that or I'm just getting old and deaf.)

 

[ar surround]

I have 53” tall 4-ways for the fronts. The center is a 3-way of the same line/timeframe. The three drivers in the center speaker are also used in the four way speakers. The center‘s drivers are vertically aligned. So what positioning of that center yields the best results? Lying on its side below the TV screen of course!

It only is problematic on some albums where the information in the center speaker is totally isolated. Most of the time the front sound stage is seamless, but when it isn’t it drives me bananas...and that’s not the good type @Snood bananas.

 

[ar surround]

Neither the size nor the position of the screen is of any concern to me because my main multichannel system does not have one. This means that I can accommodate a full-size center speaker identical to my L/R speakers and not an inherently compromised, horizontally-arrayed "dedicated" center speaker. That provides for the recreation of center images with greater clarity and stability and with greater tonal accuracy due to orientation of the source with respect to the head and ears (HRTF).

I think that you are dealing with a different context than I am because of your need to accommodate your "BIG HUNDRED-AND-SIX INCHER, yeee hawww!!!! <ahem> ."

Kal, do you have the 5.1 of Abbey Road? If so would you listen to it and give us your thoughts about how the center channel information is executed? For me it sounds a bit disjointed all too often. (Note that I don’t have a problem with The Doors 5.1s which seem to have Morrison’s vocals isolated in the center.)

In general, I feel that the information in the center is not in issue as long as there is a bit of bleed/blending into the fronts.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, do you have the 5.1 of Abbey Road? If so would you listen to it and give us your thoughts about how the center channel information is executed?

Do I have to?
To be honest, I would not be able to make much of a judgement since the use of a center channel in a multi-tracked pop mix like this is arbitrary and whether the mixing/mastering is successful is quite subjective. My comments are based on recordings of real-time event/performances and, frankly, overwhelmingly of classical music.

 

[PmikeK]

Center channels are great.

 

[timothyemerson]

For me, the centre channel is mission critical, particularly for movies. I have to settle for screen a little higher than I'd like and centre speaker a little lower, but I've managed to get everything as good as I can get it (had to build the cabinet but that was fun).

I had a small Mission centre years ago but could hear that it wasn't coping with the latest 5.1 music mixes that were coming out at the time so I upgraded to a large 3 way KEF which blew the Mission away. I've now got a SVS Ultra which reveals lots of detail that the KEF wasn't.

I guess what I'm getting at is that you need something suitable large to get the most out of it (no great revelation there). Round my neck of the woods, you need to hunt (and then pay) to find a decent large 3 way centre as most retailers tend to stock smaller 2 ways that do an alright job with most movies but that reveal their limitations when it comes to a 5.1 music mix (i.e., Bob Marley's Legend 5.1 BD).

Still, if you're happy without a centre, that's cool. Whatever works. I'm sure there'd be things in my set up that others may find weird.

 

[quicksrt]

Center channels are great.

Indeed. If anyone wishes for some bleed into L&R of that center channel I will say be careful what you wish for. Because the next step after that is to have a producer or mix engineer agree that yes it does sound better this way, and while we are at it, let’s blend the L&R rear Channels a bit too. Yessss now we’re talking. Ok let’s just mix front to back a tad to solidify that entire soundstage. And by the time this whole mix session is over - we may as well master it to SQ for the ever compatibility. You know, folks don’t really need everything so separated do they?

So leave that god damn center speaker channel mix alone, and if you want to reroute it then fine, just don’t mess with the mixes for those of us who like to hear a Marc Bolan or Billy Joel singing directly in front of us just like we are in the studio with them. It taken too many decades to get true discreet surround playing back correctly for anyone to start second guessing the objective at this late point in time. Ok I feel better now, let me put on a nice descreet 4.0 quad SACD and bask in that real thing I waited 45 years to hear correctly.

 

[quicksrt]

I found a Realistic brand speaker switch at the thrift store for peanuts on the dollar - that I have connected only to the center speaker channel so I can toggle if on / off. Sometimes it is fun to turn it off. Just to hear more of the band playing minus the lead vocal or whatever is placed there.

For quad programs I don’t want a center channel generated like the Deep Purple “Stormbringer” quad mix on DVD (U.K. EMI) for my listening interruptions.

 

[sjcorne]

Indeed. If anyone wishes for some bleed into L&R of that center channel I will say be careful what you wish for.
...
So leave that god damn center speaker channel mix alone, and if you want to reroute it then fine, just don’t mess with the mixes for those of us who like to hear a Marc Bolan or Billy Joel singing directly in front of us just like we are in the studio with them.

Both the T-Rex and Billy Joel 5.1's actually have the vocals slightly diffused into the mains and rears. In fact, I can't think of many pro surround mixes that have the vocals totally isolated in that center speaker with no support in the other channels - the only one that comes to mind is the Allman Brothers' Idlewild South, mixed by Kevin Reeves. Maybe some tracks on Abbey Road as well? I'd need to double-check that. Some of the Steven Wilson mixes have no trace of the vocal in the front left and right, but there's always a reflection and/or reverb of it in the rears.

Interestingly enough, in the ProTools DAW there's an entire control devoted to this effect called "divergence" - it allows you to control exactly how much a mono signal localized to one particular speaker or area 'blends' into the surrounding speakers.

I do agree with you though, it's a blast to just run the center and basically find yourself transported to the vocal tracking sessions. But it doesn't always serve the music - two surround titles where the "vocals isolated in the center channel" mixing style didn't really work for me are Marillion's Misplaced Childhood and Tears For Fears' Songs From The Big Chair, both mixed by Steven Wilson. These are big 80's productions with huge reverberant soundscapes - shoving that lead vocal in one speaker makes it sound small, detached, and often buried.

 

[ar surround]

Indeed. If anyone wishes for some bleed into L&R of that center channel I will say be careful what you wish for.

Both the T-Rex and Billy Joel 5.1's actually have the vocals slightly diffused into the mains and rears. In fact, I can't think of many pro surround mixes that have the vocals totally isolated in that center speaker with no support in the other channels - the only one that comes to mind is the Allman Brothers' Idlewild South, mixed by Kevin Reeves. Maybe some tracks on Abbey Road as well?

Yes, it's also my observation that a lot of mixes have the vocals in the mains as well as the center. Bottom line is that I don't care how the engineer chooses to do the mix...vocals isolated in center or diffused into the mains...just so it sounds good.

 

[quicksrt]

Both the T-Rex and Billy Joel 5.1's actually have the vocals slightly diffused into the mains and rears. In fact, I can't think of many pro surround mixes that have the vocals totally isolated in that center speaker with no support in the other channels - the only one that comes to mind is the Allman Brothers' Idlewild South, mixed by Kevin Reeves. Maybe some tracks on Abbey Road as well? I'd need to double-check that. Some of the Steven Wilson mixes have no trace of the vocal in the front left and right, but there's always a reflection and/or reverb of it in the rears.

I do agree with you though, it's a blast to just run the center and basically find yourself transported to the vocal tracking sessions. But it doesn't always serve the music - two surround titles where the "vocals isolated in the center channel" mixing style didn't really work for me are Marillion's Misplaced Childhood and Tears For Fears' Songs From The Big Chair, both mixed by Steven Wilson. These are big 80's productions with huge reverberant soundscapes - shoving that lead vocal in one speaker makes it sound small, detached, and often buried.

Not much vocal diffusion from center channel on "The Stranger", not the tracks I’m thinking of. I’ll listen again to "She’s Always a Woman" and report back.
(added)
OK, I must have a special edition mix of this album because I am getting solo'd lead vocals from Billy Joel in CTR chan!!!!! Wowie!!! Nothing (at all) so far as lead vocals in L&R mains - but a tiny trace of vocal reverb in rears, but not enough to call it diffused vocal. It's reverb trails, and oh so faint. And noting in fronts. So yes isolated Billy in Center. And I think personally it works wonderfully. But that is just an opinion I know.

 

[ar surround]

Here's yet another return to that dreaded center channel topic. LOL

I installed an Atmos / Auro3D expansion late last summer (2021.) I've since noticed some very peculiar and positive things about the center channel material. Here are two examples:

1. Music: With the Abbey Road TrueHD layer (Atmos downmixed to 7.1 or 5.1), I felt that the pinning of the vocals solely in the center channel was too intense and called too much attention to itself. Since expanding to Atmos, I now find that the center channel blends seamlessly into the front sound stage. I suspect that the mix is more geared towards the Atmos experience than to 5.1.

2. Movies: Atmos, and also DTS HD upmixed with Neural X and Dolby True HD (or DDD+) upmixed with Dolby Surround: Remarkably, I again find that the center channel material blends much more seamlessly into the front sound field. Panning through the three front speakers also sounds much more seamless. This is even though the mains are giant floor standers with the upper-range drivers located significantly higher than those of the center speaker which sits below the TV.

Anyone else have these observations?