Classical Music: Do You Prefer Immersive/Middle of the Orchestra or Ambient/Hall Multichannel Mixes?

[humprof]

So here's a starter list of classical recordings that I built mostly by going back through this thread. According to those who recommended them, these were either recorded discretely or contain notable discrete elements. Accuracy definitely not guaranteed; additions, corrections, notes, and disputes welcome. N.B.: this list doesn't include anything from the AIX or Tacet labels, and for now, I've also left out the Vox reissues on MoFi. In principle, this list also doesn't include recordings with "active" rears (i.e., more than just hall ambience) or "immersive" recordings (e.g., those from 2L or Sono Luminus, which are multi-mic'd and recorded in surround, though not discretely)--although people who know some of these better than I do may want to argue about how to classify them.

[Edit, 2 May 2019: also yet to be added to the lists are some of the titles mentioned in this 1973 New York Times piece that @ubertrout dug up.]

• Aho, Kalevi. Symphony No. 12 (“Luosto”). Lahti Symphony Orchestra/Chamber Orchestra of Lapland/John Storgards. BIS SACD-1676 (2008). SACD 5.0.
  
  
• Bach, Johann Sebastian. The Four Great Toccatas and Fugues. E. Power Biggs. Sony 87983 (2003). SACD 4.0. Originally released on Columbia Masterworks MA/MAQ 32933 (1974). SQ LP/Q8. Mixed by Ray Moore.
  
  
• Bartok, Bela. Concerto for Orchestra. Boulez Conducts Bartok. New York Philharmonic/Pierre Boulez. Columbia Masterworks MQ/MAQ 32132 (1973). SQ LP/Q8. Mixed by Ray Moore. (In 2002, Sony Classical re-released this, together with The Magnificent Mandarin, on SACD 5.1 [Sony Classical SS 87710]--but while they cleaned up the sonics, they also messed with the mix, which doesn't much resemble Moore's original quad. Luckily, that quad mix now been remastered and reissued on SACD by Dutton!)
  
  
• Berlioz, Hector. Symphonie Fantastique. Boston Symphony Orchestra/Seiji Ozawa. Pentatone Remastered Classics PTC 5186211 (2015). SACD 4.0. Originally released in stereo on Deutsche Grammophon 2530 358 (1973). Mixed by Thomas Mowrey.
  
  
• Berlioz, Hector. La Damnation de Faust. Edith Mathis, Donald McIntyre, Thomas Paul; Boston Symphony Orchestra/Seiji Ozawa. Pentatone Remastered Classics PTC 5186 212 (2015). SACD 4.0. Originally released in stereo on Deutsche Grammophon 2709 048 (1974). Mixed by Thomas Mowrey.
  
  
• Berlioz, Hector. Requiem. Utah Symphony /Maurice Abravanel. Vanguard Classics 1506 (2002). SACD 4.0. Reissued on Classic Records CHDD 2012 (2010). HDAD (Hybrid DVD-A) 4.0 24/96. Originally released on Vanguard VSS-2/3 (QR, 1969) and VSQ 30006/7 (SQ LP, 1972). "Selective discrete": ambient except for four brass choirs in one movement only. Paired (on the SACD) with Mahler’s Symphony No. 1, which was not recorded discretely.
  
  
• Berlioz, Hector. Requiem. Atlanta Symphony Orchestra/Robert Spano. Telarc SACD-60627 (2004). SACD 5.0.
  
  
• Bizet, Georges. Carmen. Marilyn Horne, James McCracken; Metropolitan Opera Orchestra/Leonard Bernstein. Pentatone Remastered Classics PTC 5186 216 (2014). SACD 4.0. Originally released on Deutsche Grammophon 2709 043 (1973). Mixed by Thomas Mowrey and remastered by Jean-Marie Geijsen.
  
  
• Corigliano, John. Symphony No. 3 "Circus Maximus"; Gazebo Dances. University of Texas Wind Ensemble/Jerry Junkin. Naxos NBD0008 (2010). BDA 5.0.
  
  
• Dvořák, Antonin. Quartet No. 6 in F Major, Op. 96 ("American"); Quintet No. 3 in E-Flat Major, Op. 97. Budapest Quartet (w/Walter Trampler, viola). Columbia Masterworks MQ/MAQ 32792 (1974). SQ LP/Q8.
  
  
• Ericcson, Hans-Ola. The Four Beasts’ Lament (Mass for organ and electronics), etc. Hans-Ola Ericcson, others. BIS SACD-1485 (2005). SACD 5.0.
  
  
• Giuliani, Mauro; Castelnuovo-Tedesco, Mario; Villa-Lobos, Heitor. Guitar Concertos. Narciso Yepes; London Symphony Orchestra/English Chamber Orchestra/Luis Antonio García Navarro. Pentatone Remastered Classics PTC 5186202 (2014). SACD 4.0. Originally released in stereo by Deutsche Grammophon. Mixed by Rudolf Werner.
  
  
• Haydn, (Franz) Joseph. Mass in Time of War. Leonard Bernstein's Concert for Peace. Patricia Wells, Gwendolyn Killebrew, Alan Titus, Michael Devlin; Norman Scribner Choir; (National?) Orchestra/Leonard Bernstein. Dutton Epoch CDLX 7346 (2017). SACD 4.0. Originally released on Columbia Masterworks MQ 32196 (1973). Mixed by Larry Keyes and remastered by Michael Dutton.
  
  
• Holst, Gustav. The Planets. Strauss, Richard. Also Sprach Zarathustra. Boston Symphony Orchestra/William Steinberg. Blu-Ray 4.0 (192/24). Deutsche Grammophon 479 8669 (2018). Mixed by Günter Hermanns (Thomas Mowrey, co-exec. prod.). Originally released in stereo by Deutsche Grammophon in 1971.
  
  
• Holst, The Planets (transcribed for Organ). Hansjörg Albrecht. Oehms Classics 683 (2012). SACD 5.1.
  
  
• Maderna, Bruno. Complete Works for Orchestra, Vol. 4. "Quadrivium," etc. Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra/Arturo Tarnayo. NEOS 10936 (2012). SACD 5.1.
  
  
• Mahler, Gustav. Symphonies No. 1 & 4. Levine Conducts Mahler. Brahms, Johannes. Symphony No. 1. Levine Conducts Brahms. London Symphony Orchestra, Chicago Symphony Orchestra/James Levine. Dutton Vocalion 2CDLX 7344 (2017). Originally released on RCA Red Seal CRD3 1040 (1975) and RCA Victor ARLI 1326 (1976). Mixed by Robert Auger and Michael J. Dutton.
  
  
• Messiaen, Olivier. Turangalîla Symphony. Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra/Ricardo Chailly. Decca 470 627-2 (2003). SACD 5.1.
  
  
• Mussorgsky, Modest. Pictures at an Exhibition. Rachmaninoff, Sergei. Die Toteninsel. Stravinsky, Igor. Three Dances from Petrushka. (All transcribed for Organ.) Pictures from Russia. Hansjörg Albrecht. Oehms Classics OC 632 (2009). SACD 5.1.
  
  
• Orff, Carl. Carmina Burana. Atlanta Symphony Orchestra & Chorus/Carl Runnicles. Telarc Surround SACD-60575 (2001) SACD 5.0.
  
  
• Les Percussions de Strasbourg. East Meets West. Works by Francis Miroglio, Alain Louvier, Georges Aperghis. Pentatone RQR Series PTC 5186156 (2004). SACD 4.0. Originally released on Philips 6521 030 (1972).
  
  
• Popov, Gavriil. Symphony No. 1. Shostakovich, Dmitri. Theme & Variations, Op. 3. London Symphony Orchestra/Leon Botstein. Telarc SACD 60642 (2004).
  
  
• Poulenc, Francis. Concerto for Organ. Petit, Pierre. Concertino. Barber, Samuel. Toccata Festiva. Gillian Weir, organ. English Chamber Orchestra, David Hill, Raymond Leppard. Linn CKD 178 (2001).
  
  
• Prokofiev, Sergei. Alexander Nevsky; Lieutenant Kije. Philadelphia Orchestra/Eugene Ormandy. Dutton Epoch CDLX 7362 (2018). SACD 4.0. Originally released on RCA Red Seal ARD1 1151, ARLA1 1325 (1975, 1976). Mixed by Paul Goodman and remastered by Michael Dutton (Kije mixed by Dutton).
  
  
• Rachmaninoff, Sergei. Vocalise. Budapest Festival Orchestra/Ivan Fischer. Channel Classics CCS SA 21604 (2004). SACD 5.0. Paired with Symphony No. 2, but only Vocalise is recorded in “conductor perspective.”
  
  
• Ravel, Maurice. Orchestral Works: Le tombeau de Couperin; Menuet antique; Ma Mere L'Oye; Valse nobles et sentimentales; Une barque sur l'ocean. Boston Symphony Orchestra/Seiji Ozawa. Pentatone Remastered Classics PTC 5186 204 (2014). SACD 4.0. Originally released in stereo on Deutsche Grammophon (1974). Mixed by Thomas Mowrey.
  
  
• Reich, Steve. Electric Counterpoint; Six Marimbas Counterpoint (arr. for solo marimba and tape); Vermont Counterpoint. Kuniko Plays Reich. Kuniko Kato. Linn CKD 385 (2011). SACD 5.0.
  
  
• Respighi, Ottorino. Fountains of Rome; Pines of Rome; Roman Festivals. Sao Paolo Symphony/John Neschling. BIS BIS-SACD-1720 (2010). SACD 5.0. Discrete rears for offstage instruments in finale of Pines of Rome only.
  
  
• Rheinberger, Josef. Two Concertos for Orchestra & Organ. E. Power Biggs; Columbia Symphony/Maurice Peress. Dutton Epoch CDLX 7334 (2017). SACD 4.0. Originally released on Columbia MQ 32297 (1973).
  
  
• Stravinsky, Igor. Firebird (1910 Complete Version) . Boulez Conducts Stravinsky. New York Philharmonic/Pierre Boulez. Columbia Masterworks MQ 33508 (1975). SQ LP. Mixed by Ray Moore.
  
  
• Stravinsky, Igor. Pulcinella Suite; Scherzo Fantastique; Symphonies of Wind Instruments. Boulez Conducts Stravinsky. New York Philharmonic/Pierre Boulez. Dutton Epoch CDLX 7343 (2017). SACD 4.0. Originally released in stereo on Columbia Masterworks M 35105 (1978). Mixed by Larry Keyes, remastered by Michael Dutton.
  
  
• Stravinsky, Igor. Petrushka (1911 version). Boulez Conducts Stravinsky. New York Philmarmonic/Pierre Boulez. Dutton Epoch CDLX 7343 (2017). Originally released on Columbia Masterworks MQ 31076 (1972). Mixed by Ray Moore, remastered by Michael Dutton.
  
  
• Stravinsky, Igor. Le Sacre du Printemps. London Symphony Orchestra/Leonard Bernstein. Columbia Masterworks MQ/MAQ 31520 (1972). SQ LP/Q8. Mixed by Larry Keyes.
  
  
• Vivaldi, Antonio. The Four Seasons, etc. English Chamber Orchestra/Pinchas Zukerman. Dutton Epoch CDLX7335 (2017). SACD 4.0. Originally released on Columbia Masterworks MQ 31798 (1972).
  
  
• Vivaldi, Antonio. The Four Seasons; Concertos for Violin and Double Orchestra. London Mozart Players/David Juritz. Naxos 5.110001 (2001). DVD-A 5.1.
  
  
• Wagner, Richard. Tannhauser (Paris Version). Hans Sotin, Helga Dernesch, Rene Kollo, Victor Braun; Wiener Philharmoniker/Georg Solti. Decca 4832507 (2018). Blu-Ray 4.0 (192/24). Originally released in stereo on Decca SET 506-9 (1971).
  
  
• Wagner, Richard. Der Ring: An Organ Transcription. Hansjörg Albrecht. Oehms Classics OC 612 (2007). SACD 5.1.
  
  
• Wagner, Richard. Overtures: Organ Transcriptions. Hansjörg Albrecht. Oehms Classics OC 690 (2013). SACD 5.1.

 

[quicksrt]

AGREE with ALL your choices, humprof. At D~V and Pentatone's CURRENT PRICES, if one has ANY interest in Classical .... buy them all. They represent a major bang for the buck and Pentatone's DGG/Philips QUAD SACD reissues, even though MOST are ambient are the FIRST TIME these two label's releases have ever been released in a QUAD format [including Vinyl].

Yes but the topic and what humprof is talking about is discreet quad in an orchestral/ classical setting, and not ambient rear channels just to get any quad and at bargain prices. We went from talking quality to talking bargain discs in one quick click.

Ambient rear channels are very depressing to me knowing what could have been. (Sorry). They strike me as too close to faked quad, even if they are real.

 

[humprof]

Yes but the topic and what humprof is talking about is discreet quad in an orchestral/ classical setting, and not ambient rear channels just to get any quad and at bargain prices. We went from talking quality to talking bargain discs in one quick click.

Ambient rear channels are very depressing to me knowing what could have been. (Sorry). They strike me as too close to faked quad, even if they are real.

Heaven knows I have enough hall-ambient classical discs, too, many of which I like very much. But yes, I also prefer discrete--and I was implicitly continuing Jonathan's response to @ar surround, who was asking about other quad classicals done in the manner of Boulez Conducts Bartok. A bunch of people -- @Lute, Sean, @ubertrout, Kal, and others -- were discussing this topic on "Most Recommended Classical" thread a while back, and I tried to compile all the recommendations into one list, which I started in Post #80. (I'm sure some of the choices would be contested, and I'm equally sure the list is not complete.)

"Discrete Orchestral/Choral/Chamber Classical Discs" is a topic that probably deserves its own thread!

 

[bmoura]

These days all Multichannel recordings are "discrete" (recorded and released with 4 or more discrete and separate channels) rather than "matrix"(ed) (4 or more channels mixed into 2 and then reconstructed on the other end).
The real question is how the performances are recorded and released.

Some listeners expect a Multichannel recording of Classical Music to give the experience of sitting in the audience at a performance.
While others want a more "immersive" and "middle of the orchestra" experience.

I would note that music stores, download sites, record labels, engineers and producers hear complaints about Multichannel Classical releases from listeners who think they should all be immersive/middle of the orchestra or all hall/ambient.
The result is that Stereo editions of these albums can be much less "controversial"

 

[ubertrout]

I think we have a lot of options regarding mixing style, and a lot of labels offering different approaches. But I actually think most people want at least offstage instruments put in the rears, which some labels are so conservative as to avoid doing. On the other hand, a super-aggressive mixing style like Tacet's isn't always ideal either; I'll admit I sometimes find their recordings tiring. The list above is really helpful, I've found essentially anything Dutton released from quad to also be fairly aggressive.

 

[bmoura]

I actually think most people want at least offstage instruments put in the rears, which some labels are so conservative as to avoid doing.

Depends on the listener.
Some are pretty adamant about no instruments in the rear channels in their Multichannel Classical Recording purchases.

 

[Franklin]

I prefer an immersive mix, but I get people preferring a more authentic experience.

 

[ar surround]

I actually think most people want at least offstage instruments put in the rears, which some labels are so conservative as to avoid doing.

Depends on the listener.
Some are pretty adamant about no instruments in the rear channels in their Multichannel Classical Recording purchases.

Perhaps it would be financial suicide for a label if most of their Mutichannel Classical Recordings morphed into what Boulez and company did with Bartok. However, it would be nice if they'd throw lovers of instruments-all-around a bone from time to time.

 

[humprof]

I also want to recommend a couple of posts in particular from the "Most Recommended Classical" thread: #65, where Sean distinguishes between Discrete, "Wide Soundstage," and Ambiance in classical surround mixing, and #66, where @ubertrout discusses both "always on" discrete mixes and "offstage instruments" mixes.

Like @Mike the Fish, I get why some people want to approximate the concert-hall experience in their listening rooms. I don't think that's necessarily a more "authentic" experience, though. For instance: is the perspective of the conductor on the podium less authentic? More to the point: trompe-l'oeil painting is cool, but almost no one believes that the object of every good painting should be to mimic as closely as possible what the eye sees in nature. A recording is artificial by definition, so in general, when I listen to a recording, I'm looking for an artefact that pleasingly and creatively exploits the possibilities of its medium and the chain of technology involved in its production and reproduction.

I've read & seen interviews with great classical recording engineers like Marc Aubert and Jean-Marie Geijsen defending a more conservative approach (I think Aubert didn't really even see the point of multi-channel at all), and I have immense respect for their work. I'm sure it's also financially prohibitive to set up orchestra studio recording sessions specifically with multi-channel in mind, especially these days. I also love the "in-the-round" technique that Morton Lindberg typically uses. But a discrete mix like Ray Moore's Boulez Conducts Bartok just thrills me...

 

[ubertrout]

I also want to recommend a couple of posts in particular from the "Most Recommended Classical" thread: #65, where Sean distinguishes between Discrete, "Wide Soundstage," and Ambiance in classical surround mixing, and #66, where @ubertrout discusses both "always on" discrete mixes and "offstage instruments" mixes.

Like @Mike the Fish, I get why some people want to approximate the concert-hall experience in their listening rooms. I don't think that's necessarily a more "authentic" experience, though. For instance: is the perspective of the conductor on the podium less authentic? More to the point: trompe-l'oeil painting is cool, but almost no one believes that the object of every good painting should be to mimic as closely as possible what the eye sees in nature. A recording is artificial by definition, so in general, when I listen to a recording, I'm looking for an artefact that pleasingly and creatively exploits the possibilities of its medium and the chain of technology involved in its production and reproduction.

I've read & seen interviews with great classical recording engineers like Marc Aubert and Jean-Marie Geijsen defending a more conservative approach (I think Aubert didn't really even see the point of multi-channel at all), and I have immense respect for their work. I'm sure it's also financially prohibitive to set up orchestra studio recording sessions specifically with multi-channel in mind, especially these days. I also love the "in-the-round" technique that Morton Lindberg typically uses. But a discrete mix like Ray Moore's Boulez Conducts Bartok just thrills me...

A few companies offered multiple mixes for their surround releases (this doesn't work for SACD of course) - EMI's DVD-Audio of Rattle conducting Mahler's 5th (which wasn't even marketed as a DVD-A but rather included it as a bonus with the DVD-V) has both a "stage" and "hall" mix as I recall. AIX also offered this with a few of their releases. But I suspect most companies don't think it worthwhile, especially since hybrid SACD has remained the main medium for multichannel audio for classical.

I'm surprised listeners are listening in surround and want nothing discrete in their surround channels, but to each their own I suppose?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I think we have a lot of options regarding mixing style, and a lot of labels offering different approaches.

It is not mixing style or, at least, should not be. It has to do with the actual recording process and microphone placement. You cannot just jack up the rear/surround channels post hoc nor can you take FOH microphone feeds and direct them into the rear/surround channels and expect good results. IMHO, you either do it one way or the other.

I generally prefer a discrete ambient surround presentation since it approximates what I hear when I go to concerts and that is what I aspire to in playback. OTOH, a purposely made immersive recording can be thrilling although I would not like it as a steady diet. Creatively appropriate use of the surround channels, e.g., for off-stage voices, instruments and effects, is also appreciated.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Perhaps it would be financial suicide for a label if most of their Mutichannel Classical Recordings morphed into what Boulez and company did with Bartok. However, it would be nice if they'd throw lovers of instruments-all-around a bone from time to time.

Of course, Mark Waldrep has done exactly that but it has to cost more to produce.

 

[quicksrt]

I’d like to hear a good string quartet cycle done in 4 corner quad. Where you really get the quartet around you feel intensely.

Bartok, Shostakovich, or the like.

 

[ar surround]

I’d like to hear a good string quartet cycle done in 4 corner quad. Where you really get the quarter around you feel intensely.

Bartok, Shostakovich, or the like.

LAGQ (guitar quartet) has done some nice stuff that is 4 corner quad. I have LAGQ Latin. Heck, quad and quartets fit like a glove!

 

[ubertrout]

I’d like to hear a good string quartet cycle done in 4 corner quad. Where you really get the quarter around you feel intensely.

Bartok, Shostakovich, or the like.

Check out the Auryn Quartet series on TACET: https://www.tacet.de/main/seite1.php?language=en&filename=katalog.php&artist=12&search=yes

 

[JonUrban]

I’d like to hear a good string quartet cycle done in 4 corner quad. Where you really get the quarter around you feel intensely.

Bartok, Shostakovich, or the like.

QuadroSurround did just that in 2012, and it was a remakable release that I enjoyed very much. Sadly, although I spoke well about it, I don't think anyone here at QQ other than Kal and 2 others ever gave that disc a shot. Sad. "Pizzicato Polka" is pure demo bliss!

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...o-surround-goes-classical-its-a-winner.15590/

 

[Strilo]

I would be interested in a symphony I love in an immersive "middle of the stage" presentation. I've never heard one. All my classical stuff is ambient/hall style. I want one that was mic'd that way to be mixed that way as well. Sounds intriguing.

 

[ubertrout]

QuadroSurround did just that in 2012, and it was a remakable release that I enjoyed very much. Sadly, although I spoke well about it, I don't think anyone here at QQ other than Kal and 2 others ever gave that disc a shot. Sad. "Pizzicato Polka" is pure demo bliss!

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...o-surround-goes-classical-its-a-winner.15590/

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View attachment 39856

I was interested in this, but I wasn't as interested in the crossover stuff, which seemed neither fish nor fowl to me. And the prices were never low enough for me to take a risk given the many options.

 

[quicksrt]

QuadroSurround did just that in 2012, and it was a remakable release that I enjoyed very much. Sadly, although I spoke well about it, I don't think anyone here at QQ other than Kal and 2 others ever gave that disc a shot. Sad. "Pizzicato Polka" is pure demo bliss!

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...o-surround-goes-classical-its-a-winner.15590/

View attachment 39855
View attachment 39856

Their link is likely somewhere on QQ, in fact I think I saw it not long ago. But since this release is not at all easy to find on Amazon, etc. here is the company link again.
https://www.quadro-surround.de/english/avaiable_productions.html
I like the look of their "Space Rock" release.

 

[bmoura]

An interesting recent Surround Sound release features classical guitarist Enno Voorhorst and The String Soloists from Cobra Records.
(It is available as a DSD Stereo, Surround Sound and Binaural download. Not available on SACD.)

As you can see by this YouTube video of the albums track #11 "Tango en Skai ", the guitarist is performing in the front and the string ensemble is arrayed along the sides and rear of the studio.
You can also see the "dummy head" microphone setup in the middle of the room that is capturing the performance for headphone listeners as a Binaural DSD and DXD release.

The album is quite good. I'd recommend it.
And it is on sale through the end of April at 15% Off with code AXPONAFAVES as one of the albums used to show off the new exaSound e38 8-Channel DAC during the AXPONA audio show.

https://cobra.nativedsd.com/albums/COBRA0066-concerto-metis