DTS:X confusion

[mandrix]

My AVR is pretty good about switching output modes to match the incoming format. If I select Direct or Pure Audio modes then it (obviously) bypasses EQ (Dirac Live in my case)
Only prob I have is 5.1 DTS-HD plays back as 7.1.4. I've been griping at Onkyo for months...they reproduced (DUH) but no fix yet.

 

[ProgRules]

My little red MODE button on my remote for my McIntosh AVR has all those variation choices.
I use the mode button frequently, when watching TV, sometimes stereo is clean and/or Multichannel. All the others, at least the way I was brought up are just Faux surrounds, and I don't like them.
When I listen to music, I am a purist, it's either Stereo, Multichannel, or Dolby Atmos.
Also with music listening I listen with Pure Direct=OFF.
TV/Movie listening, is whatever I think best, while using the Audessy Room Correction.
Rule of thumb, don't lock yourself into a have to be that way, or what QQ members might say, experiment.

Funny, I just upgraded to Atmos and was thinking of starting a poll thread to see how many folks use Dolby Surround and/or Neural:X to upmix 5.1 music vs. keeping it pure. I've been listening to Atmos via discs and Apple Music, so I haven't tried it yet, except on a couple 5.1 movies where it seems to increase spaciousness. Won't be too long until I get to 5.1 music; just curious what others are doing.

My AVR is pretty good about switching output modes to match the incoming format. If I select Direct or Pure Audio modes then it (obviously) bypasses EQ (Dirac Live in my case)
Only prob I have is 5.1 DTS-HD plays back as 7.1.4. I've been griping at Onkyo for months...they reproduced (DUH) but no fix yet.

On my Pioneer, Direct keeps Dirac EQ; only Pure Direct defeats it. According to the manual anyway; I've only done a quick MCACC cal- waiting until I get my room completely cleaned up before I dive into Dirac. Plus, I want to get familiar with how my AVR sounds so I can be more clear on how much better Dirac is.

 

[mandrix]

Funny, I just upgraded to Atmos and was thinking of starting a poll thread to see how many folks use Dolby Surround and/or Neural:X to upmix 5.1 music vs. keeping it pure. I've been listening to Atmos via discs and Apple Music, so I haven't tried it yet, except on a couple 5.1 movies where it seems to increase spaciousness. Won't be too long until I get to 5.1 music; just curious what others are doing.



On my Pioneer, Direct keeps Dirac EQ; only Pure Direct defeats it. According to the manual anyway; I've only done a quick MCACC cal- waiting until I get my room completely cleaned up before I dive into Dirac. Plus, I want to get familiar with how my AVR sounds so I can be more clear on how much better Dirac is.

So in Direct Mode the EQ works? Strange. What model Pioneer do you have? I'm assuming what you call Pure Direct is what Onkyo calls Pure Audio.

 

[TiberiusSpock]

I've seen a couple articles with folks stating what occurs with going from say 5.1 to multi-channel up mixing (to Atmos or DTS:X) and it seems to vary by manufacturer and mode, say Pioneer versus Denon and Dolby versus DTS. It seems using DTS to upscale may use the ceiling speakers slightly more than using Dolby upscaling will.

Shokhead did a nice job of going through the DTS stuff. Depending how the sound was encoded the upscaling is different. It gets fairly complicated as some CD's will not upscale while most will. Some CD's, if you want to use all of your speakers, you'll have to use "stereo" enhance ("multi-channel stereo") and all that occurs is the left channel sound goes to all the left speakers and the same for the right channel sound to the right speakers. In these cases, for me, it's not worth it since the sound levels are about the same from ALL the speakers so I hear more from the surround speakers than I do the main. I'd have to raise the volume on the mains to level the volume output. Too much hassle for me.

Most CD's, and steaming stereo or 5.1 sound, upscaling can be quite nice. I used to be a purist and not upscale sound but I've changed over the last couple of years. It's been a pleasant surprise to me. To see what I mean, simply play stereo sound in "multi-channel stereo" and then switch to upscaling via "DTS" and then "Atmos", if your receiver allows it, and see what you think.

Bottom line is you can set your receiver to upscale non DTS:X or Atmos sound automatically or let it play as originally encoded by using "pure" setting or similar. If using a "pure" setting (so stereo plays stereo, 5.1 plays 5.1, and so on with no upscaling) and you've calibrated your speakers for the room, be sure to check the manual so you don't disable the calibration as well. I forget now but there's "pure" and "pure-direct" modes (whatever each manufacturer calls them) but you most likely don't want to bypass the calibration if you've done that.

 

[mandrix]

My AVR is upscaling DTS-HD and it's not supposed to. I brought this to ONkyo's attention and they confirmed on their test unit. There IS a setting that is supposed to disable it and still keep the Dirac Live EQ but does not work. Incredible. It's been turned over to the "Engineers" lol.
This only affects people I think that have a 7.1 or greater system.

 

[ProgRules]

So in Direct Mode the EQ works? Strange. What model Pioneer do you have? I'm assuming what you call Pure Direct is what Onkyo calls Pure Audio.

I have a VSX-LX505. Twin to the RZ50 (not identical, as there are some minor differences, eg universal crossover on mine whereas the RZ can set different for each speaker- but close enough they share the same firmware).

Again, I can't confirm since I haven't set up Dirac yet, but it does keep MCACC EQ and most over at AVS say it does- though the manual is open to misinterpretation the way it states it:

"Direct/Pure DirectThe "Direct" mode shuts down some processing that can affect sound quality,such as the tone control features, so you can enjoy even better sound quality.The "Pure Direct" mode shuts down even more processes that affects soundquality, so you get a more faithful reproduction of the original sound. In this case,the speaker calibration made with MCACC/Live is invalid."

But google tells me the Onkyo works differently.

 

[jaybird100]

Personally, I'm not a fan of up-mixing any music.

AVR manufacturers should make it a lot easier for users to disable these features along with disabling video up-scaling!

It's really a matter of personal preference. I use a Surround Master on my home theater system, mainly for music, but also for movies that use the old Dolby Surround. With stereo music, the SM opens up the sound considerably, often revealing details in the music that are otherwise covered up. Since I have a large collection of SQ and QS records, I can hear them as intended. But this is just me; I'm sure there are many others who agree with you, that music should be heard from only two speakers. Hell, there are some who still prefer only ONE speaker! Like I say, everybody's different, and there's no right or wrong way to enjoy the music you love.

 

[mandrix]

I have a VSX-LX505. Twin to the RZ50 (not identical, as there are some minor differences, eg universal crossover on mine whereas the RZ can set different for each speaker- but close enough they share the same firmware).

Again, I can't confirm since I haven't set up Dirac yet, but it does keep MCACC EQ and most over at AVS say it does- though the manual is open to misinterpretation the way it states it:

"Direct/Pure DirectThe "Direct" mode shuts down some processing that can affect sound quality,such as the tone control features, so you can enjoy even better sound quality.The "Pure Direct" mode shuts down even more processes that affects soundquality, so you get a more faithful reproduction of the original sound. In this case,the speaker calibration made with MCACC/Live is invalid."

But google tells me the Onkyo works differently.

Yes the manuals can be confusing. the RZ50 suspends all EQ when the Direct Mode is use. The Pure Audio mode also supends video processing.
Now, I can play a 5.1 DTS-HD BD, e.g., in Direct Mode, and the proper number of channels are output. But it suspends all EQ, or at least the Dirac Live processing.
Since one main reason I bought the unit was for Dirac Live, it's disappointing.

 

[mandrix]

Called Onkyo again today. No one knows what the "engineers" are going to do. I offered they should just buy it back from me for like the 5th time. Seriously considering ponying up $175 and taking them to small claims court.

 

[paligap]

I don't how other manufacturers do it, but I think the default with Denon AVRs is to play the signal as it is sent unless directed by the user to upmix, etc. I think they also remember such directions, although it may vary by source. I don't recall ever having to use "Pure" or "Direct" or something like that to get my AVRs to play a signal as it receives it, but if I had to do something like that and it bypassed my Audyssey settings, I'd be mighty pissed off.

 

[mandrix]

I don't how other manufacturers do it, but I think the default with Denon AVRs is to play the signal as it is sent unless directed by the user to upmix, etc. I think they also remember such directions, although it may vary by source. I don't recall ever having to use "Pure" or "Direct" or something like that to get my AVRs to play a signal as it receives it, but if I had to do something like that and it bypassed my Audyssey settings, I'd be mighty pissed off.

I AM mighty pissed off, my friend. You have no idea. lol. That DTS HD MAS 5.1 plays as 7.1 is not near as bad as the Quadio's playing as 6.1. Now THAT royally chaps my backside.
I've seen other problems with Denon's and other brands, so not like Denon sits on a mountain peak.

 

[ProgRules]

Yes the manuals can be confusing. the RZ50 suspends all EQ when the Direct Mode is use. The Pure Audio mode also supends video processing.
Now, I can play a 5.1 DTS-HD BD, e.g., in Direct Mode, and the proper number of channels are output. But it suspends all EQ, or at least the Dirac Live processing.
Since one main reason I bought the unit was for Dirac Live, it's disappointing.

Can you not use MCH listening mode to get the correct number of speakers with Dirac? I saw that mode when I was seeing if the Onkyo was the same as Pioneer for pure direct.

 

[mandrix]

Can you not use MCH listening mode to get the correct number of speakers with Dirac? I saw that mode when I was seeing if the Onkyo was the same as Pioneer for pure direct.

Not for DTS.
I've been through this backwards and forwards. Until they issue a fix I either can have correct number of channels OR use Dirac Live with DTS.
95% of my listening is Atmos, which is not affected.

 

[TiberiusSpock]

I don't how other manufacturers do it, but I think the default with Denon AVRs is to play the signal as it is sent unless directed by the user to upmix, etc. I think they also remember such directions, although it may vary by source. I don't recall ever having to use "Pure" or "Direct" or something like that to get my AVRs to play a signal as it receives it, but if I had to do something like that and it bypassed my Audyssey settings, I'd be mighty pissed off.

You are correct.

That's why I started playing around with this stuff because it was relatively easy to do, learned I did like the upscaling. There is a mode that will bypass calibration but you'd probably only do that listening to mono or stereo.

 

[Sal1950]

Now, I can play a 5.1 DTS-HD BD, e.g., in Direct Mode, and the proper number of channels are output. But it suspends all EQ, or at least the Dirac Live processing.
Since one main reason I bought the unit was for Dirac Live, it's disappointing.

But that is the reason for Direct or Pure Direct modes, to take all digital processing out of the path.
Denon/Marantz IME first disables any Audyssey processing with Direct. With Pure Direct it even shuts off
any front panel displays with the thought that the display may corrupt any outgoing digital stream.
Over at ASR Amir has measured these units in both modes and could find no difference in the outgoing
path but hay, it sounds good on paper ?

 

[mandrix]

But that is the reason for Direct or Pure Direct modes, to take all digital processing out of the path.
Denon/Marantz IME first disables any Audyssey processing with Direct. With Pure Direct it even shuts off
any front panel displays with the thought that the display may corrupt any outgoing digital stream.
Over at ASR Amir has measured these units in both modes and could find no difference in the outgoing
path but hay, it sounds good on paper.

Yes I know this. My part of the discussion centered on DTS-HD 5.1 being output as 7.1 on my AVR unless Direct Mode was used.

 

[mandrix]

Yes I know this. My part of the discussion centered on DTS-HD 5.1 being output as 7.1 on my AVR unless Direct Mode was used.

This only affects people with at least 7 base speakers, that have the same AVR. e.g. if one has a 5.1.4 system Dirac Live processing can be used with no noticeable anomaly in output with DTS-HD.
I was promised once again by Onkyo to be kept in the loop by the end of the week. But I think the loop has become the 4th circle of hell.
Here again Atmos is not affected since it always plays as 7.1.4 on my setup. No problems with Atmos playback, they got that right anyway.

 

[Sal1950]

I was promised once again by Onkyo to be kept in the loop by the end of the week. But I think the loop has become the 4th circle of hell.

NP, the check is in the mail.

 

[Owen Smith]

I believe DTS:X was the first to market, but Dolby Atmos has been winning the “Format Wars”.

I think that's because DTS:X is a crap name and Atmos is a great name.

I believe Dolby learned that lesson from the previous format war. Dolby True HD is a pretty rubbish name whereas DTS HD Master Audio rocks as a name. Both formats do pretty much the same thing, lossless 5.1 or 7.1 audio.

 

[Owen Smith]

How do I find a film with DTS:X soundtrack? I feel I should have one to test my AVR's handling of the format, but in the UK I'm struggling to find one. Search Amazon UK for DTS:X is a dead loss, as is searching the DVD Compare site.