Inquiry About Chicago X in DVD-A

[timbre4]

A few weeks ago, I noticed that Chicago X was listed under 5.1 mixes here:http://paulklingberg.com/surround.html

On a whim I decided to write to Paul Klingberg and ask about it. I just rec'd a reply from Paul; while not encouraging news, I figured some would want to read the communication:

Tim,

Sorry for the delay in responding, but thanks for the kind words. It was an absolute dream come true to remix the Chicago records, especially II. Sadly, as you know, the DVD-A format (and DualDisc) is completely dead and worse the labels don't really see a market in releasing their existing catalog in hi resolution surround. For us engineers doing the remixing, pretty much all that work has dried up. Fortunately, there's plenty of other surround work to be done for DVD and broadcast.

As far as the release of Chicago X, I have no clue. I looked and noticed I don't even have a production disc although I have my reference disc from mastering. If it was not ever released it was probably because of the above mentioned reasons. It's probably best to check with Rhino, that's who I worked for doing the remixes.

best,

Paul

===========================================================================

On May 16, 2007, at 7:58 PM, Tim McDonnell wrote:

Paul,

First of all thank you for a dream DVD-A disc ELP - Brain Salad Surgery. I will always treasure that.

The two Chicago DVD-As issued are astonishing; you and John Kellogg are a great team, I sincerely hope you are afforded the chance to produce more multi-channel surround mixes we can buy.

I see that Chicago X is listed as released but I don't believe it ever got releaased. Is there any chance that Warner's new BecauseSoundMatters.com boutique or another outlet will release this as DVD-A?

Thanks, Tim

Tim McDonnell
Friendly Moderator - QuadraphonicQuad.com
Surround formats past present and future

 

[haikubass]

Holy mackerel II!

 

[neil wilkes]

The usual "DVD-A is completely dead" BS strikes again!
The sole reason this is considered to be "dead" is because of 3 main reasons.
1 - The labels simply never bothered to promote the format.
2 - the stupid format war, which had the effect of creating hassle for independent labels who got costs paid by the majors - I could name names (but will not) but suffice it to say a surround catalogue we all know was prepared (at 24/96) with the costs being split between Sony & Universal. Universal refused to permit SACD and Sony refused to pay towards DVD-A, so it got tanked.
3 - A lot of authoring houses upgraded themselves out of the game. DAC was developed to run on Windows 2000, and by good fortune it also ran on XP - although this was always unsupported by Sonic. All those who went to Vista or Windows 7 found their software no longer worked (a familiar story to Mac users, who get this crap every time OSX is updated).

Thankfully reason 2 seems to be a thing of the past - at least with Sony Music (UK) - leaving us with the other 2 problems, the biggest of which will always be label apathy.
This *can* be overcome but it will be very difficult as we saw with Rhino who pulled Quadio after 2 titles, citing piracy as the reason.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Really? Rhino blamed piracy for their stupidity in title selection and abandoning us after getting our hopes up? I have a few choice words for them.

 

[fredblue]

Really? Rhino blamed piracy for their stupidity in title selection and abandoning us after getting our hopes up? I have a few choice words for them.

totally agree! unbelievable!

if Rhino had used (watermarked) DVD-Audio, rather than DTS DVD-Video for their Quadio reissues.. would piracy have been such a problem!?

I'm guessing the back-catalogue Neil's alluding to that got caught up in all the political shenanigans and so never happened in 5.1, was The Beatles.. !?

BIG sigh..!!

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

I don't think the watermarking would have made a difference. I think that the fact that the Chicago disc sold out proves their claims to be absolute bullshit. As it is, look at the prices they sell for now. They could print up a second run of those discs, and they would still sell! I find it disgusting that if you go to the rhino hand made site, and look at the current listings, it is still listed, and then you can't order it because it is sold out. This is the ONLY title I see listed there like this. How rude is that? Taunting their customers like that. Clearly piracy didn't hurt them there, they sold out all they printed out, whether or not some people have pirated it.

So, that leads me to believe, they base their claims on the lower sales figures for the Aretha disc.

Yeah, completely logical, one disc sells out, another disc doesn't.....must be piracy.

Rhino can fuck off as far as I'm concerned. They've backstabbed us, and then they go and insult us and blame us for not selling us product that we want to buy. Unreal! Go to hell, Rhino.

 

[JonUrban]

Rhino read our suggestions, and we pleaded with them NOT to release a Quadradisc title that was sold on Quad Reel. We suggested stuff like the Eagles released and unreleased quad titles, which would have sold out, or other Chicago titles, or many others from the WEA Quadradisc catalog. They chose Aretha, which had a lot going against it. First, it was available on reel, second, it was an early artist release, meaning that many of her hits were not on that disc, and going with a "soul" title for a second release automatically made the market smaller.

However, I don't think the piracy deal was as important as the layoffs and organizational changes within the company as to the fate of Quadio. Sure wish John from Rhino would stop by and spill the beans!

 

[0tto]

Sure wish John from Rhino would stop by and spill the beans!

i believe he is no longer at Rhino. secondly, as i mentioned somewhere earlier, his appearing in here was motivated
only to promote upcoming releases as they were part of his work, he got paid for. if he really care or interested in
quad or surround at all, he could remain, independently of his new employment or anything else.
seems same approach "i'm all in this... if i'll gain some cash for it" practiced by majority, so perhaps doesn't worth
to waste breath to discuss this.

 

[Quadwreck]

If there's any backstabbing to be cited, it's what Warner has done to Rhino. They severely cut back their budget, decimated their staff, and took away any autonomy in talking to the public. I know a VP at Warner, I've done some business with Rhino people (not job related) and I can tell you there is a very unhappy situation at Rhino. Warner quashed the Quadio program, not Rhino. They were very enthusiastic about it. To add to their demoralization, they can't even respond to what is directed at them in forums.

 

[jefe1]

The music industry appears to be different from every other type of business where the business model is to make money by supplying a demand for your customers and selling to them what they want. I don't get it, must be the same people that run our govt and put us in the current mess.

 

[Quadwreck]

How is this thread about politics?

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

It's not just the music industry. Just look at what NBC is doing to the olympics. Instead of providing people with the coverage they want of the olympics, they bought everyone off, bought all the rights to the olympics, blocked everyone from getting any other coverage from other countries, so that if you want to watch the olympics, you'll watch what they want you to watch of it. It's pure laziness, rather than utilize the potential that today's technology allows, they'd rather just pay everyone off and force everyone to continue doing it the same old way they've been doing it that allow them to funnel all viewing into a few hours of prime time that will allow them to draw in big viewing numbers which equals big advertising revenues.

When what they should be doing is taking advantage of the fact that we live in a day and age where we have the technology that would allow me to get home, settle in, turn something on, and select whatever events I want to watch from an on demand menu. The technology is right there to provide the customer with whatever they want, and charge them for it. Instead, businesses choose to be lazy, and pay big bucks to keep things the same as they've ever been.

 

[Q-Eight]

It's all a big joke. As I said in another thread, they dangle the carrot and then say "shit" and pull a fade. Piracy?? Oh get stuffed. We made headlines in a few newspapers by jumping on the few idgits that TRIED pirating the Chicago disc. The Aretha disc was a very poor choice on their part. The timing was even worse because a VERY well done (I would wager to say "perfect") conversion of the title was done and released roughly a week or so before the Quadio title went on sale. Yeah I don't understand the business model here. You've got people standing in line with cash in hand to buy something New & Exciting, but you won't produce a product for various imbecillic reasons.

Well duh. Pick some High-Profile titles that WILL Sell. Keep the ball rolling and let it build momentum. Promote your product. Advertise with fucking Google. Advertising is the KEY element. It takes money to make money. ARG. I just don't get it.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

I read somewhere that there was a production problem with the authoring. So because of this and lack of support by the label, it never got released. It just sits there in the vaults rotting along with the great Quadraphonic mix as well. How many other DVD-Audio titles that were actually mixed, also sit in the vaults?

Why, they fail to release a BR with all the mixes or some other option, is beyond belief. Sure, it may not sell 10's of thousands of copies at first, but it would sell and who knows what markets could be had by building something over time. Just as Warner has done with vintage movies in connection with TCM, Turner Classic Movies. If they can do this for old movies, certainly it can be done for music: http://shop.tcm.com/

Don't forget, you get to watch the movies for free on cable. You love them so much that you're actually willing to buy and collect them because the titles are great with extra's. Now TCM has boat cruses and a film festival that fans can attend and website. All this didn't even exist 10 years ago.

Perhaps a Directv surround station for music via HDMI. Ok, so it may only be Dolby at first, but folks could then buy the Lossless versions. Folks not normally into surround music would get a chance to give it a whirl. TCM proves this works.

The media companies are just not nimble enough to innovate and be productive in the 21st century. They've bloated into one company when there should be many labels as we used to have back in better times. No one is in control or willing to do anything. So, perhaps it must be artist driven at this point if anything is to be done.

 

[fredblue]

oh, it's all SO depressing!!

I believe there are a good few other Warner 5.1 mixes newly created for DVDA release, all done and dusted, that are just sitting there, along with Chicago X.. including..

Van Morrison's "Moondance",
Paul Simon's "Graceland",
The Doobie Brothers' "Minute By Minute",
Rod Stewarts' "Tonight's The Night'...

I'd buy ALL of those in a heartbeat - and I'm sure everyone here at QQ would be interested in at least one, maybe some, or more than likely all of them, too..!?!

So.. What can we at QQ do to get these and the other albums that are already mixed in surround out there?

Sales "numbers" can't be factored in anymore as a reason not to release these.

As an example, Elton's new album sold just 14,000 copies here in the UK last week to reach Number One in the UK Album Charts.

The last time Elton reached the UK Number One spot ("Sleeping With The Past" in 1989-90) it sold 900,000 copies.

It is the worst selling album of his 43 year career - yet it got to Number One..!!!

Music is just not selling in the numbers that it used to, so the argument that sales are what is stopping the labels from releasing more surround music is just (in my not so humble opinion on this subject!) utter NONSENSE.

Warner, Sony and Universal should license their catalogues to the likes of AP to get Quad & 5.1 out there NOW, if they won't release it themselves.

Time is running out, the customer base who wants this stuff is ageing/diminishing, the tapes are deteriorating.. It's just so sad and needless

What can we as a collective here at QQ do to turn the tide and revive surround music now?

I wish the guys that are members here who were involved in the DTS releases (with all the experience they have of how to do this, they've already been there and done that - sorry I don't know you by name) could join forces with Steven Wilson, Neil Wilkes and all the incredible QQ guys who have such invaluable knowledge and incredible technical expertise of Quad mixes (of the transferring of them etc) so that we could form the "QuadraphonicQuad" record label and get more surround music out there, before it's too late - even if it's just in the form of "Limited Edition" QQ record club releases, no unnecessary frills, just the music, in Hi-Res surround.

I'd certainly invest in a project like that, if such a thing were to happen.

 

[Bob Squires Jr]

Warner, Sony and Universal should license their catalogues to the likes of AP to get Quad & 5.1 out there NOW, if they won't release it themselves.

What? And give up one thin dime to someone else??? Surely you jest my friend!
The gatekeeper trolls would never go for that!

I'm waiting for the day when you will be charged a "seat license" for your car because someone other than the owner
MIGHT be listening or you MIGHT be playing the radio with the window down and someone might accidentally hear free music.

The way that the system works needs to be changed and there is just too much money and power involved and it's only gonna get worse.

 

[quadtrade]

Gee
is it not sweet to hear another story about corporate america not giving a rats ass about anybody. They do not care about the customers, the company they purchase and destroy(Rhino), the employees(do not let them explain anything). This country has become a shithole because of this type of corporate indifference. Corporations rule, people are nothing. Typical of the way we are being fucked. Wake up people to what the corps are doing to us and our government.

If there's any backstabbing to be cited, it's what Warner has done to Rhino. They severely cut back their budget, decimated their staff, and took away any autonomy in talking to the public. I know a VP at Warner, I've done some business with Rhino people (not job related) and I can tell you there is a very unhappy situation at Rhino. Warner quashed the Quadio program, not Rhino. They were very enthusiastic about it. To add to their demoralization, they can't even respond to what is directed at them in forums.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Warner quashed the Quadio program, not Rhino. They were very enthusiastic about it. To add to their demoralization, they can't even respond to what is directed at them in forums.

Well then, until this mess gets straightened out, we should say:

Rhino Good. Warner Bad, very BAD.

Hopefully, the folks at Rhino can wait it out until whoever did this at Warner gets the BIG boot out of there...

 

[neil wilkes]

If there's any backstabbing to be cited, it's what Warner has done to Rhino. They severely cut back their budget, decimated their staff, and took away any autonomy in talking to the public. I know a VP at Warner, I've done some business with Rhino people (not job related) and I can tell you there is a very unhappy situation at Rhino. Warner quashed the Quadio program, not Rhino. They were very enthusiastic about it. To add to their demoralization, they can't even respond to what is directed at them in forums.

In this case, I aplogise unreservedly for mixing Rhino & Warners together in the same lump.
I do have some small amount of inside info on this one about the start of the Quadio thing in the first place, although I am not sure if I should spill or not - suffice it to say we wrote to Warners well before Quadio started, offering to license old & unreleased Quad material from them.........my letter ended up with Rhino, then came Quadio. Hmmm.

 

[Quadwreck]

In this case, I aplogise unreservedly for mixing Rhino & Warners together in the same lump.
I do have some small amount of inside info on this one about the start of the Quadio thing in the first place, although I am not sure if I should spill or not - suffice it to say we wrote to Warners well before Quadio started, offering to license old & unreleased Quad material from them.........my letter ended up with Rhino, then came Quadio. Hmmm.

Often a record company's best idea comes from outside the office.